Here is where I’m at now:
The airplanes: Sig Mid Star and four star, both with 46 AX.
Both semi symmetrical wings.

My flying:
- No problems on take offs and landings even cross winds.
- Doing loops, long, short on a dime, inverted you name it.
- number eight in any direction, up, side, square, with or without a roll
- rolls right or left, well with elevator corrections, 3,4,5 rolls in a raw almost without loosing altitude, so its not competition smooth
- inverted flight I can do several pattern loops as long as its high.
- most of the time going home with no repair required (at last).


What I couldn’t do:
- knife edge my airplanes don’t like yet, or I couldn’t figure out yet.
- Rolling in a circle, I cannot put it to roll in a turn
- Slow rolls I’m loosing altitude.

One thing I noticed that with my airplanes I need to plan the flight ahead, I can do sharp maneuvers but it cost airspeed, its not a fun fly airplanes what I have.

So what should I be working on next?

I’m asking this because I don’t know if what is limiting me is the airplane or me.



Thanks
Alex

Alex,


Your ahead of me in accomplishments in flying, but
in life I live bye the Practice,Practice and Practice theory.


Bob

Of course you could always start building a scale model and become a real modeler.

Bob, I’m competing only with my self. i didnt want to sound cocky.
And as you said its practice and more practice, Just acquire stick time, its practice by it self.
me, I just don’t know what to practice on…

Stang, building it is not the problem, its to fly it to maximum.
I’m not sure I want scale right now.

I have to confess I was trying to suggest that scale was more enjoyable (for me anyway) but here's a site that you might find interesting if you want to improve your flying. Hope it helps.
http://www.iac.org/magazine/july_article.html

I’m just at the point that im doing the same maneuvers, rolls and loops, and it didn’t change from how it was 4 gallons ago.
I feel that there is some sort of barrier of confidence or airplane.
Maybe its because all these extras and yaks with DA 100 that are flying around me…

Alex

I guess I'm not a real modeler then [], right now I build sport, pattern, pylon and 1/2A, but not scale.

Alex,

Real modelers build a lot more than scale.

It sounds like you're getting ready to move up to a sport plane that will make aerobatics easier. In the mean time, work on perfecting your aerobatics. Loops perfectly round, correcting for wind drift and torque, stall turns with vertical entries/exits, cuban 8's that have the same diameter circles on both sides centered right on you, and even spot landings anyplace on the field and right in front of you (+/- 10') every time. You can visit the National Society for Radio Controlled Aerobatics [link=http://nsrca.us/] (NSRCA) [/link] and get information on how to properly perform various maneuvers.

The knife edge may be a as much a matter of the plane you're flying as technique. Most 4*'s I've flown don't like to knife edge - and the coupling will make you fight to keep it from tucking one way or the other or just roll out. The real key to most aerobatic maneuvers is timing control input. Once you can do a decent roll and put in down elevator to keep the nose from dropping without changing heading or altitude, its just a matter of learning to time the input of rudder on a regular roll. After this work on slowing down the roll. Slow rolls are not easy to do correctly, but are one of the most rewarding maneuvers to do. Work to the point where it takes 5 or 6 seconds to complete (competition flying requires at least 5 seconds). Before long you'll find you're doing 3 consecutive slow rolls across the field and doing 4 and 8 point rolls soon after that. After you have the slow roll down, the you can think about the rolling circle. Don't worry if you don't get it right the first time, just keep practicing and it'll happen.

It sounds like you may be ready to move up to a better aerobatic plane, so you may want to look at something like a Venus 40 or similar plane that will be much better suited to working on aerobatics with a lot more precision. You .46 AX will be great in a Venus.

Hogflyer

Yes I was thinking about getting a better sport airplane, but isn’t that true that you can do almost any maneuver with a 4*?

I mean advanced trainers are easier to fly then sport and therefore if you can do it with a sport you could do it with an advanced trainer?

Thanks
Alex

Sounds like you still need to learn to use rudder - it's what keeps you from losing altitude in slower rolls, and obviously what you need for knife edge. The 4 Star with the AX is very capable - I flew the Dolphin which is a copy, with the AX. I flew it in a pattern meet, too. Check out the pattern or IMAC forums and get some info on how to PROPERLY fly aerobatic maneuvers. It will really challenge you and improve your flying, then you can make a sound decision on what plane to get next. Use lots of rudder - do flat turns, coordinated turns, stall turns. Use rudder to track straight through a loop so you don't get blown in or out. Keep practicing the knife edge. Probably need full throttle, and most to full rudder, and feathering the elevator. Learn to fly knife edge well on this plane and you will appreciate your next plane even more. I could fly the Dolphin in a knife edge around the pattern all day if I had to.

For the sharp moves and losing speed - what prop do you have? Try a 12x5, you will love it for the type of flying you're doing, granted your engine is fully broken in. If not, an 11x5.

And practice using your rudder

Nice job by the way! Keep it up.

Both.

As for Knife Edge, some planes just do them better than others. If your plane won't hold a knife edge, it may be too heavy or need more power or more side surface.

And frankly, both those planes are advanced trainers. You are doing advanced maneuvers. I think it's time to move up to a better plane. maybe something in the way of an Extra 300 or Edge 540.

Get something better, then... Practice practice, practice

Thanks,
Well I guess i didn’t graduate from 4* yet.

Rudder I’m using on turns and landings also to correct loops.

When trying knife edges the airplane falls in or out immediately and strong so I blamed it on the small rudder…

I’m running 11x5 on 46 AX and it screams till im feeling guilty.

Better airplanes then 4* will not tolerate less then a perfect landing, thanks for giving me more ideas how to torture my 4* and mid star.

Thanks
Alex

Hi Alex,
Since your flying skills exceed mine it may be absurd for me to give advice, but advice giving is something I am really good at so here I go.
I am choosing a pattern flier as the target of opportunity because they typically really understand how to setup a plane for the best possible performance and they typically are very good RC pilots.
So: if there is a pattern flier in your group that is willing to help you, ask that person to fly your plane for evaluation.
If this person does everything you are trying to do with your plane then ask for instruction.
If the plane is not capable ask for help with setup changes. Setup changes may or may not get you where you want to be.
While I have never really exceeded any of my plane's abilities it sounds like you are very close to getting all there is to have out of your planes.
Good for you.

Hi alex7403
I have read everything you wrote but I cannot understand what problem you are haviing making a knife edge. If you could better describe what the plane does when you go into knife edge, myself or others may be able to give you suggestions. Just saying it falls off, or something like that, is not enough for me to understand the problem. You seem to be much more advance than I am, but I do knife edges all the time, with every plane I have, even a Canard of my own design and build. The knife edge manuever can tell you a lot about the balance of the plane, and a few other things. So it's up to you; give a more precise description.

Yes, seconding what Villa said - see if you can get yourself a trim chart, and start REALLY trimming your plane, then see what happens when you knife edge, etc. If your engine is screaming with the 11x5 (mine was!) try the 12x5, I think you will love it! I still had a very fast plane, but had more pull (which helps with knife edge and anything vertical). The RPMs will decrease, but I bet after another gallon of fuel they will come back up. I have the 46AX and a 12x5 prop and get 12000rpm on the ground.

pm me your email address if you need a trim chart.

Again, I'm not trying to talk you out of another plane - I'm sure you could handle one and learn a lot from it, but like I said, improving now will help you make a better decision on what kind of plane to get - big difference between an aerobatic plane and a 3D plane, unless you go for something like the Reactor =) Your skills will improve immensely by being able to correct the couplings in your 4 star, and when you move to a more precision plane you will be amazed.

The OP’s “in/out” statement leads me to believe there is pitch coupling at KE… one reason why I recommendation a more neutral plane for learning aerobatics.

The “next step” depends upon what you enjoy. From your description, I’d say maybe your interest at the moment is sport aerobatics? If I’m wrong, correct me, but I’ll run with that until then. Without seeing you fly, I’ll make some assumptions about your professed skill level.

You have not learned all you can on the advanced trainers, but I’d say you are at a point where a more neutral plane will allow you to learn quicker. But, at the same time, you’ll get into trouble quicker too, so use caution. Neutral planes for the most part will do exactly what you command without too many naughties. This makes learning to fly aerobatics much easier without developing as many bad habits.

My suggestion is to look for a model that is designed to fly aerobatics well. This would mean a small pattern ship. Small pattern ships will be the most neutral flying plane in that size range you will ever fly. I’m thinking something like a Venus. Pattern ships are much easier to fly aerobatics with than a trainer, and they will be more neutral than a semi-scale aerobatic model or a fun fly type.

You could take a look at IMAC flying. Competition always makes you a better pilot. I'm looking for a new plane to fly this type of pattern. I have been flying since 1978 and honestly need to improve my skills and I think this is a pretty good way to do it. Here's
a link.

http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx

Another good plane that you are probably ready to handle is the Tower Kaos 40. The Kaos has always been a great 3rd plane and makes for a wonderful aerobatics trainer. Its been recommended for this roll for close to 40 years and many other planes have been based on the basics of the Kaos.

I have Tower Kaos 40 ARF that is one season and flies great with a TT 46 Pro. Only downside to the Tower Kaos is the cheap covering they use, but they fly great. I'm planning on recovering mine this winter and making a few mods similar to the Super Kaos, but that is just personal preference. Built and flown as stock they are perfect for what you want to do.

Hogflyer

Thanks Guys,

Charlie, I asked for advice and what I was answered was to start flying in to these points that I want the plane to be like precise flying and im working on that.

Villa, its like this: I’m lowering the left wing and the wing is vertical, the moment I push the rudder the airplane flips back to horizontal wing and im not catching it for flying it on its rudder.

gaRCfield, couplings what is this?
12x5 im not sure I have enough ground clearance, im beating my 11x5 props so next time oh I bent in the landing gear so I’ll try 12x5 for sure.
Mean while I’ll put back the 11x6, I like to hear it scream tough…
Some suggests I’ll try 10x7.

JohnW, I noted that and I have the feeling that I can learn more from the mid star and 4* especially now that I know how to get out of trouble with them.
I was thinking kaos 40 and then Ultra sport 60 are those pattern planes?
And all these experiments of mine I’m doing 3 mistakes high, its saving the airplane and less heart beat but its kinda hard to notice too, but still flying another day.

Stang, im looking into it now, wow its harder then IQ test

HogFlyer, I’m looking into the kaos 40, it should be flying good with 46 AX you say.

Thanks guys, noted everything
Alex

Alex, Yes, both the Kaos and Ultrasport are pattern, or pattern like planes. Either would be a good next airplane if looking to learn and perform traditional aerobatics. Truth be told, my 3rd plane was a ultrasport 40. Loved it.

Coupling is the effect of one surface causing the reaction of another. For example, when you ad rudder at knife edge, the plane has a tendency to pitch up (pull to canopy) or down (push to gear.) But pitch is an elevator function, not a rudder yaw function. So in effect, we say the rudder yaw is coupling to elevator pitch. Another example, a trainer will couple rudder to aileron because of the dihedral of the wing, i.e. rudder causes yaw and roll. In the trainer, that may be a desired effect, but in a aerobatic plane, coupling is generally not wanted, i.e. you want a neutral plane that has no coupling among other things such as thrust/CG set corre3ctly, etc. You can modify/eliminate coupling effects by plane design and radio mixes.

Hi alex7403
Depending on the plane, knife edge may require input from the aileron, rudder, and elevator. The amount of input can vary between planes. Here is what I suggest you do: bank 90 degrees to the left with the ailerons as you have been doing, and immediately give it full right rudder and hold it. Observe the plane carefully and add aileron as needed, + or - to hold the knife edge. The plane may track toward the canopy side or the landing gear side. At first disregard this. As you become more proficient, you can add elevator to hold a track. Generally speaking, if it tracks toward the canopy it may be nose heavy; if it tracks toward the gear it may be tail heavy.

are you doing knife edge with full open throttle?

KE wide open? Depends on the plane/engine... mainly the plane if the engine is sized reasonably. My 2M pattern ship will hold KE easily with almost no rudder input at 1/3 throttle. I had a 25% Decathlon that would hold KE at a jogging speed at about 50% throttle. I've had other planes that can't hold KE without descending wide open. The key to lower throttle KE is not rudder as many believe, it is forward side area. You will notice many pattern/aerobatic ships have canopies shifted forward... that's why.

Villa has the CG effect of KE pitch issues correct. Wing incidence can also cause issue as well as some other things I won't bother with in the beginners forum. Moving CG is generally a good fix if other tests confirm your CG is out of whack. If moving CG is not an option, or not desired for other reasons, read up on how your radio mixes work and mix rudder(master) -> elevator(slave) to mix out the undesired pitching. I'd suggest getting a helper and putting the mix on a switch. Leave the mix off for takeoff incase the mix really jacks with you. Flip the switch and test KE both directions (left and right rudder), have your helper write down what happened. Land, adjust mix, rinse and repeat until it tracks nice and straight. FYI, many plane will have roll coupling too with KE, i.e. they will try to roll upright or on thier back. Dihedral and other issues cause this...easiest fix is again a mix rather than chopping the wing to reset dihedral, etc.

I flew a similar setup to what you have and I needed full throttle for a knife edge.

If you are having trouble regaining speed after a turn you want to stay with a low pitch prop. With my Dolphin I used larger wheels and a piece of plywood under the gear to fit a larger prop. If you want to do aerobatics, you want at least an 11" prop, if not the 12".

Did you laterally balance your plane? Are you sure things are fastened properly (battery and receiver)? Just some things to check.

If you're slowing down in corners I wouldn't go to the 11x6, it will take longer to pick up speed. 11x5 is a good prop (I found anyway) on that engine if the 12x5 doesn't work for you.

Alex:

It is always you.
No pilot knows how much he has to learn until he seriously tries to have total control over his model.
Let an expert pilot of your club fly your 4-star and you will see; it happens to me each time I do it.

Revise the throw of your rudder and read these:

http://www.modelflying.co.uk/news/ar...82933320374342

http://www.troybuiltmodels.com/newsi..._sequence.html

http://www.nsrca.org/trimA.htm

Regards!

My throttle setting is "whatever is needed to maintain altitude". On most I am at full to high throttle. On some I am unable to maintain altitude and may choose to accept that. Don't look for an answer that fits all cases. There are many variables involved. Keep at it and it will come to you.