So last summer I taught myself to fly RC airplanes. I started on a parkzone Ember (3 channel, fully proportional, great little plane by the way). It is nearly crashproof because its so slow and lightweight, so I didn't need an instructor. After a month or so of flying almost everyday, I could do precision landings, loops, and just about every maneuver the little plane itself was capable of. So then I decided it was time to move to bigger things. The whole reason I decided to learn to fly RC in the first place was because a relative had given me an old hangar 9 alpha trainer, 40 size nitro plane, which I wanted to fly.

With all my practice on the Ember, I was actually able to fly the Alpha without much trouble. Except for one thing. On landing, I always broke the front landing gear off. Even though my landings usually looked quite smooth, the front landing gear would still break. I would fix it, and go fly again. Of course, with the exception of the first time, this can be explained by my shoddy repair work.

So I am mostly concerned with the first landing. Since it is a trainer, you would think the alpha trainer would be built to take the hard landings student pilots would inevitably put on it. Is it normal for the nose gear to break off even on a mildly hard landing? Do student pilots regularly break the nose gear off 40 size trainers while learning to land? Because if not, then I suspect my problems were because the plane was 5 or 6 years old and the balsa was weak from having some fuel spilled on it.

Im asking because I am considering buying a new alpha trainer (I did eventually crash the old one, when the radio battery died in flight, i think. 5 year old battery too). But I would like to know that I will be able to land the new alpha, ie, that a new alpha trainer can usually take a mildly hard landing without losing its nose gear.

A few other questions, too. I usually landed with throttle at idle. However, this usually resulted in fairly high speed landings, the plane would have needed a long runway, if the nose gear hadnt broken and prevented it from rolling. Is it normal to land at idle, or do people usually kill the engine on final? Because I noticed killing the engine usually produced much more reasonable landing speeds. Then again maybe my idle was set to high.

Also, what was actually one of the hardest parts of transitioning from the ember was the takeoff roll. The plane would start to pull hard to the left at high speed and throttle. But if I trimmed this out, then it would pull to the right at low speed. (May have gotten left and right reversed there, dont remember). I konw P-factor can cause this, but the tendency seemed very strong to be P-factor alone. Is this normal? I had the luxury of a wide runway, but it seems like it would be very difficult to take off from a narrow runway due to this.

Thanks for you help!

Sounds like you are landing first on the nose wheel. It is not designed to take that kind of abuse. Normal landing is at idlenot to kill the engine- in the event that something should happen you need the engine to be able to go around. just my 2c

cjmdjm,

Let's address one thing at a time here.

The nose gear breaking off could be due to fuel soaked wood so when you get your new plane, make sure you fuel proof that area using thinned down epoxy. Just mix up some 15 minute stuff and thin it down with a couple drops of alcohol. Another thing is on any plane you want to land on the main gear then let the nose gear come down and if your idle is too high, you are going to have all sorts of landing problems. If you have to keep your idle high to keep it running then I would suspect the engine needs tuned or the linkage is binding. BTW...high speed landings will certainly take off the nose gear as well.

Now the takeoff, Yes P-factor will cause the plane to go left but I suspect you might be blasting the throttle to full instead of smoothly applying it. An Alpha does not need a lot of power to takeoff, let alone fly. A common mistake for new pilots is the idea they need full power all the time. You can trim it out but what you want to do is set the nose wheel to have the plane roll straight with no power. I use a smooth hard surface to push the plane on. Make sure you have the plane and transmitter turned on while setting the nose wheel. Once you start the takeoff roll, use the left stick (rudder) to keep the plane tracking straight. This is important to learn since your liable to move to a tail dragger later and you will need that skill for a tail dragger.

Coming from the plane you came from, you probably got used to using lots of stick to make the plane do something because of it's tendency to be slow, the Alpha is a more powerful plane and as such you need less stick to get it to do things.

May I suggest that you set the nose wheel as I mentioned, practice doing low and high speed taxi and keep doing it until you can get the plane to track in a straight line using the left stick. Check the tune of your engine to make sure it's correct, check your throttle linkage to make sure it operates smoothly, do this by moving the servo with your fingers with the plane off, you will feel it bind if it is binding.

One other thing, on a grass runway, there is no harm in taxiing with up elevator to help take some load off of the nose gear, just keep your speed down so the plane does not try to fly until you are ready

BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man, long time no see!!!!!

How're you doing????

Ken

Hey Ken,

Doing pretty good. how about yourself... and now a member of the zipper club which had me laid out a few months, if you know what I mean.

Been on and off a few times and ended up having to create a second ID. Looks like Nathan/John saw it and combined them for me which if you would, thank them for me...

Saw this post and remembered what I used to do a lot on here and could not resist responding

The nose gear is usually pretty tough, I stalled my trainer(world models skyraider) on one of my first landing attempts and it did a nose dive into the dirt hitting the nose gear. It simply bent the rod. The sprung part of the gear usually absorbs hard landings pretty well. I think the oil soaked wood had something to do with yours failing.

Bill,
Missed having you around to help out in the Beginner's forum. Glad to see you back.

Thinks have been going about the same as always. know what I mean??

Ken

Yeah, most of my landings were either 3 point landings, or nose gear first, which I know is bad, but I wouldn't think it would break the nose gear off. Surely most student pilots have a few nose first landings, and I guess I thought a trainer would be built to take at least a gentle nose first landing. Mine were pretty gentle and smooth, even if mildly nose first. So are you saying that for nitro planes, not only are proper main gear first landings a good idea, but they are critical if you don't want to break your nose gear? Eg, nitro planes are almost completely incapable of taking any nose gear first landing?

Also another question I forgot in my first post. I have seen videos of 40 size trainers taking off from grass. But I never had much luck with this. The plane would always hit a bump or a thick tuft of grass and the nose would flip into the ground and stop the engine, even in relatively short, recently mowed grass. If I got bigger wheels, is takeoff from grass other than a golf course practical? Advice on this? I have access to a paved road that sees little use by cars, which is what I used, but it's not very convenient.

Thanks for your help!

The landings style suggested to you doesn't just apply to nitro planes. There are lots of electric planes of the same size and layout of the alpha, and are assembled the same way. Smooth landings apply to all planes. Your ember was so small and light that you could prolly just drop it and it would survive.

Flying off of a public road where cars may be is not advisable, especially if you go by yourself. I practiced taxiing in my street when I started, and cars would sneek up on me without ever hearing them.

For Grass you might want to go to a larger wheel. I fly off grass and in most cases the wheels (if any) that comes with the planes are normally too small. Most planes won't take nose wheel landing very good. sometimes is looks smooth to us but to the plane it is 7 - 8 lbs consentrating on one little wheel held on by only a plastic retainer. Try to get where you can land on the main gear first. Also, if the plane is coming in hot at a idle, you probably have the idle set to high.

cjmdjm,

Nitro planes are certainly made to handle grass. Here in the NE, most of what we have is grass from glass smooth to rough as heck with right now being rough as heck. Fuel soaked wood will certainly give you tons of problems.

Yes, you can easily go with bigger wheels to help raise the plane. It's been a while since I've seen an Alpha but if I remember correctly, the main gear are thick wire which can be bent downwards to raise that area, some nose gears have extra wire so that you can slip it down in the mount to raise the nose. Basically you want the plane completely level or as close to level as you can get, nose low is a tad better if you can maintain prop clearance,

BTW, what prop are you using on what engine, that could also have a lot to do with your landing speed. On a typical 40 size trainer, the engines are usually around a 46 size. For best pull, which is what you need for a trainer, you would want to use an 11x5. If you want about 1/2 inch more ground clearance go with a 10x6. I would suggest wood for now and as you get better go with an APC fiberglass for better performance.

Ken,

You remember this ugly guy... This plane has been a cool thing for the stuff I do for Make-a-Wish, it was designed by one of their kids and is a huge hit.

It's a Composite-Arf 35% Extra 260 using a DA100 on Canisters and Mejlik CF 24.5x12 CF prop and all controlled by a 12x dual JR9000 receivers and all all powr using 3 A123 2300Mah batts

The Da100 will rip that prop to no end, this is one powerful engine. Vetical, even with a 3-blade is unlimited, plane weighs 28lbs and has loads of competition time on it. Everytime I use it it gets me first place

I currently have a H9 Ultimate all being recovered in the same scheme as my 40% Cap232 below as well

Which one?

Bill,
Wasn't that the Ultimate you were gonna send my way??!!!!

I see you're still working the good charities. You still working at the same place???

Ken

I was referring to sitting down main gear first. I guess that wasn't the clearest statement in the world.

Welcome back Bubba. Hope you are feeling better. Just like the good 'ol days.

I learned on an Alpha 60, and the nose gear was/is the weak link on the plane. Of course once I was able to consistently land on the main gear and then lower the nose it was much less of an issue......still it's a weak link, though. I ended up going with an aftermarket nose gear that was a bit heavier duty, with a stronger pivot assembly and steering arm. It's worth the trouble.

If you're landing at idle speed and still seeing excessive roll out then I suspect that you're either idling to fast or perhaps you are a bit nose heavy on your CG. I cut power to idle on final as soon as it's obvious that I'll make the threshold without needing to add any power. Landing roll is rather minimal. The plane floats in and stops very quickly. (Not every time, of course......I've still got a lot to learn. [8D])

I hope you're enjoying the Alpha. I certainly have enjoyed mine. Good luck.

One of the best ways is to set the mains down first on a tri-gear. On a tail dragger, you want to set down on all three if at all possible, with the exception of most warbirds and some biplanes.

Ken,

That was the OTHER one . That got sold last year to help with medical bills that only had about 45 flights on it and as you are well aware, for me that's nothing since I typically replace my fleet once a year with the exception of "Casper" which I absolutely adore that plane, then I bought another used Ultimate one and had the bottom covering come off in flight which made for some interesting manuevers trying to get it down let alone having to clean out my shorts afterwards, so while I've been "healing" I've been redoing it, I've got the covering done and now need to do the paint. I stuff a DA170 in it on Greves pipes along with smoke, should be a blast.

Yep, I'm still working for ICSA mainly doing nothing but VoIP testing and been moved into a senior analyst position so I get to make sure all the others are doing what they should do correctly (sorta like training a new pilot which you know I did a lot of that as well). Verizon "offically" bought us mid-last year and we just got a really nice retention bonus (6 months late) along with our typical yearly bonus both of which is paying for a new/used Grand Caravan for me and no payments which will fit all of my big "toy" planes inside of it. I'm heading to pick it up in a few minutes and head to NC for a judging seminar for the weekend

I'm actually looking at getting another GP Ultimate like I had a couple of years ago and stuffing a DA50 on it, sorry but once I went to gas, I no longer miss cleaning a glow plane. Expensive, you betcha, nice and easy to fly, certainly.

I've been busy with Make-A-Wish and the IMAC IRC (International Rules Committee) We have been going through all of the competition rules one by one and re-wording them for the next 2 year cycle. Haven't had a plane in the air for at least 5 months now and I'm itchin' to fly big time. I'm doing the judging demo on Sunday in NC so I'll get my chance then, probably shake the whole time [&:]

Hey Bruce, nice to see you again as well, so you're telling me not much has changed on RCU huh... Hope you're doing well as well

Thanks for reminding me Bob,

Never gave nose heavy a thought, that will certainly cause a higher than normal landing speed

Hey, I'm relatively new but I've picked up a few pearls of wisdom here and there.

That's great to hear that you are picking things up, Ken, Bruce, Mike and a few others are the ones you certainly can learn from

You couldn't be more right. This place has been a fountain of information for me.

Thanks for all the help guys. This summer I will probably order another Alpha Trainer or similar plane, perhaps the new alpha with the DSM2 radio, or maybe an Alpha 60. Any advice on learning to land properly? My Ember is apparently not that useful for practicing landings, since its a taildragger, not to mention that its an order of magnitude smaller and slower. I guess, unlike my ember, the flare is not optional on the alpha. Of course, I knew this last summer, but could never really get the flare just right. Does one start pulling back on the stick when the plane is around 5 feet above the ground? Or 10 feet? or 1 foot? I suppose I could try to practice this at high altitude, but Im not sure about the usefulness of practicing on an imaginary runway.

I also thought about a simulator for my computer (eg, RealFlight or FSone), especially if my new plane comes with a transmitter than can be connected to my computer. Are these accurate enough to be useful?

Thanks

[color=#FF0099]A lot of the 3D guys at my field keep sharp using "Sims", and some of them come with tutorials for such things as torque rolls snaps, hanging from the prop, etc. I like them for that reason. Easier to start training your thumbs that way before you try it with the real thing. Still though, it's never quite the same as out at the field....no reset button there.

Bev

CJ: (may I use that - OK I hope as I hunt and peck very slowly. [] )

Let's get back to basics. You are flying a trainer of the .40 etc. size. When the engine is running it pushes accelerated air flow over the horizontal stabilizer. That helps, however as the aircraft slows, more airflow is required to hold the nose up as any aircraft balanced for manual control will be aerodynamically nose heavy. You can demonstrate this to yourself by flying straight and level at reduced power. As you hold level flight, keep slowly reducing the throttle. You will notice that you are constantly increasing back pressure on the elevator stick to keep it there. As you get back to a somewhat landing idle, relax the back pressure and watch what happens. As the nose drops, increase the throttle and fly the aircraft as if you were doing a go-around. Hold whatever is needed to keep STRAIGHT flight straight out at an estimated climb angle of 10-15* up.

Now when you start your landing approach, get back to a rather slow speed, and set an attitude that you think proper. Adjustments will come. Use your throttle to control the climb/descents and the elevator for airspeed. This will take some time to learn, but once you get it down, you will like it. Of course sometimes you have to coordinate the two, but keep using the method. It works, both small and 1:1 scale.

As you get a few feet off the ground, throttle all the way back. What happens? The reduction of airflow reduces the negative lift on bottom of Stab/Elevator and the S/E is no longer loading the wing into its current angle-of-attack, loses lift and - kerswap - the nose gear hits. As you bring back the throttle, you will have to gently increase the back pressure on the elevator. Now if you can, use the rudder to control the wing level, however if you do the natural thing and use the ailerons, DO NOT relax that back pressure.
Please note my use of "PRESSURE". Regardless of the current engineering world's efforts to change things, an airplane is a very gentle thing and loving pressure will make it perform well.
After touchdown, gently lower the nose to the runway. On grass, as someone else stated, hold back elevator to unload the nose wheel. On hard surface, you may wish to hold the nose down. Place the ailerons for turn into the wind, just as if you were taking a flying lesson in a Cessna 150. That is a good check that your ailerons are working properly along with the elevator. Throttle during taxi and steering checks the rest. CATS - Controls, Antenna, Trim, Switches.

I suspect your problem was more in the technique area. Once I was instructing an airline pilot. He kept doing as you. I ask him if he let go of the yolk just before touchdown in his airliner. He caught right on and in three more tries he has forever been a great lander.

Don't land hard. leave those for us old guys!
Too much engine power or too high idle will not assist you. In addition using an 11-4/5 rather than the proverbial 10-6 for a .40 will help landings.
Covered by others, but on grass, Hold just a tad of up for a trike gear, slowly advance power as you steer with RUDDER/nosewheel, then as speed is building, no elevator until looking like flying, SLIGHT back pressure, continue with RUDDER control, and as airplane lifts off, you need to relax back pressure, because with increased speed, elevator is more effective and nose continues to rotate to higher pitch attitude, resulting in a torque/p-factor left - I don't care what you call it but it needs RIGHT Rudder until stabilized climb and ailerons are more effective without adverse yaw. Sorry to get technical however I do tire of watching so many destroy models of all kinds because they do not pay attention to the basics or argue over terms.

Congrats on the self taught initial flying. Ain't easy that way.