I am wondering about the opinions, held by seasoned RC Pilots, about the suitability of the GP RealFlight G4.5 simulator as a training aid for budding pilots. Does it truely match the flight dynamics of real life RC flying? Are the decision making processes and hand eye coordination developed using the simulator directly translatable to reality? Are the flight characteristics of the various models true to life? (To the degree that informed decisions can be made, based on handling, about purchases).

Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

If you are asking if it can be used as a training tool in CONJUNCTION with an instructor, then  I will answer that it is a fantastic tool for that. It will allow the student to go home and practice what he has learned at the field each session. It will allow him to build up muscle memory quickly and usually reduce the overall training time needed to solo.

But if you are asking if it can be used INSTEAD of an instructor. NO. <font size="2">

While the simulator is a good tool to use for training, it should in no way be considered an instructor tool. I have seen many people use the simulator before ever contacting an instructor and often they will pick up and develop bad habits from the simulator. Often times these bad habits will have to be "un-learned" when an instructor is contacted. Don't get me wrong, I think that they simulator is a great tool to help decrease the training time needed when learning to fly. But this must be done properly It should be used to PRACTICE skills that are taught each training session. When done in this manner it is indeed a cheap and safe way to practice these new skills. </p>

There are some things that most simulators aren't as accurate on as in real life, and these differences can often times give new pilots a false sense of security as to what they are capable of. A simulator is nothing more than a teaching tool, just like a buddy box is. It has a specific set of circumstances where it's use is applicable and it needs to be used properly like any other tool.</p>

Here's a list of some of the "bad" habits one can develop:
1) Failing to keep the plane straight during takeoff run.
2) Climbing out too steep.
3) Not maintaining a constant altitude while turning.
4) Turns that aren't smooth, too sharp, etc.
5) Forgetting that there is a left stick.
6) Not lining up with the runway during landing approach.
7) Using ailerons instead of rudder to make course corrections when landing.
8) Using the elevator to extend the landing when you realize you're short.
9) Failure to learn the signs that a plane is about to stall, and what to do to avoid it, or recover from it. </p>

 </p>

The sim is NOT</p><ul>[*]Going to teach you how to tune your engine[*]Going to teach you how to correct fuel system problems[*]Going to teach you how to set up your linkages[*]Going to show you about lateral inbalance and surface warp[*]Going to locate errors in assembly[*]Going to teach you how to maiden a plane[*]Going to trim out your plane[*]Going to simulate other flyers at the field[*]Going to blow a hard gust of air at your plane at just the wrong time[*]Going to simulate that hard sink thermal just off the runway threshold, though doable in G4[*]Going to have a bird come out and attack your plane in the air[*]Going to give you the weak knees you'll get the first time you fly[*]Going to throw a bug in your face and the sun glare in your eyes at the wrong time[/list]
Ken

</p></font>

There is on subistute for stick time....no a sim is no match for an instructor.....An instructor teaches you so much more than how to fly....safety and field manners are 2 things that come to mind.....
A student with a sim will progress faster than one with out a sim there is little doubt...but I've never seen a sim land correctly...close but not quite...besides the pucker factor increases when you can't hit the reset button and start over.......
fly the sim but get with an instructor use the best of both and solo faster......good luck

I look at my simulator as a cool RC video game. It can help with learning basic controls and other stuff and it is a lot of fun but it's nothing like the real thing. To me looking at the screen is like trying to fly a plane from inside a building looking out a small window. it's great for getting an RC fix when the weather is bad though.

While I agree about the "staring out of a window" effect, I would never go as far as calling it "Nothing like the real thing", but there is no doubt that it is not a substitute for actual stick time.

Bearing in mind RCKen's list of what it does and doesn't do, the sim can HELP learn techniques and moves.

You can attempt something you've never done in real life, e.g. a Torque Roll or Harrier, practice it ad-nauseum on the sim, and do it on your first tries at the airfield.

The fact that this is doable, points to a good degree of fidelity, albeit with the already stated limitations.

Having a set of 3D glasses and 3D compliant monitor reduces the "staring out of a window" effect.

You're still staring out of that window, but the plane on the other side flies quite realistically given that limitation.

The BEST way to use a Sim is as "Homework" - That is, you spend a day with your instructor, then, instead of having to wait till the next time you are with him, you can go home and practice what he taught you on the simulator so that the next time you are together, you are prepared for the next lesson.

That being said, many people have no chance of getting an instructor. For those people, a sim is the next best thing. It is really not recommended to try learning without an instructor, but if you MUST, and have NO other option, then get very familiar with a simulator before attempting to fly (And keep looking for an instructor)

Thank you all for your insights. Again and truly it is appreciated.

When I posed the question I had a fairly good idea of what the response would be. :-). The purpose, though, was to explore the answers with these thoughts in mind:

1. As a soldier in the US Army and and EOD Tech (the Army's Bomb Squad) I am rarely in the same place for more than a few weeks at a time.
2. I don't have the space at the moment for a workshop and to store planes with all of the requisite equipment.
3. I have a strong desire to become proficient at flying RC airplanes.

With that eye towards proficiency I have been working with the sim to gain what I figure are the 5 fundamentals. (ie taxi, take off, maneuver, land, and deal with things that go wrong). These I practice in all wind conditions that I can manage generating and working hard to maintain precision while executing everything. (As RC Ken said, maintaining the same altitude while turning, performing correct approaches for and maneuvers to landing....)

I suppose in a few months or so I'll be able to come back to this thread and tell everyone how it all works out once I've gotten a plane as well as linked up with an instructor. Until then I'd like to thank you all again and assure you all that I do not take your comments lightly.

-Rob

Rob,
 I appreciate your situation, but you may be doing more harm than good. Being in the Army you should know the saying, "Train like you fight". The same goes for a simulator. I stated this above, but I'll say it again. It's very easy to pick up bad habits if you use a simulator without proper training. And the more you use the simulator incorrectly they harder it's going to be to learn correctly later on down the road.

Ken

Rob,

I'm generally optimistic that the skills developed will be beneficial, particularly since you seem focused on simulation versus video gaming.

If you treat the simulated model like it is real, cost money, and is something you are trying to:

- fly smoothly following the policies common to most clubs
- with the objective of meeting the criteria of a soloed pilot

then I think you’ll gain experience that will accelerate becoming soloed later.

That said, to make this time valuable it becomes incumbent upon you to do some research. An exercise that I found useful, and would suggest, is to spend sometime visiting flying club websites. Most club sites post safety policies and flying rules, some clubs post sign-off criteria for new pilots, and a few post detail criteria for advancement through pilot “classes� (particular UK clubs). After you do this try and visit a few sites in person. Watch the rules in action… Then use this information and insights gained at websites like rcuniverse to improve your ability to simulate and not video game.

My two cents…

If you are mostly at bases in the US, you can use the post office web site http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/citytown.jsp to find zip codes in your next city.

Use the AMA club locator http://www.modelaircraft.org/clubsearch.aspx to find clubs in the area. Most have a contact phone number. I recommend using it rather than trying to make contact via email. Explain your situation and see if an instructor might have a trainer you can use while you are in the area. I'm pretty sure a few guys in our club would do this, and we would not expect you to join the club if you were only going to be in the area for a short time.

You'll probably need to join the AMA to be able to make it work, but $58 per year is a bargain to get great help.

RCKen, I understand your warnings. And they are at the forefront of my thinking every time I run the simulator. "These aren't just pixels. This is my plan and I want to fly it well."

Balsa Brkr, Wow. That is an excellent suggestion and not one that would have ever come to mind. Thank you truly.

carrellh, Thank you for the suggestion. I do agree that checking out possible clubs in the various areas that I travel is a good idea. And like with Balsa, not one that I would have come up with on my own. Thank you. But I don't think that I would take it to the level that you're suggesting. I'd rather learn by watching and asking questions. 2 eyes, 2 ears, one mouth. ;-)

That's Army thinking for you.

We had a few expressions in the Navy too:

Screw it.

Yea, what the hell.

Works for me.

It's good enough for a town this size.

Just my thoughts on G4.5
I don't think a lot of people posting on this thread have even been on the system. Yes it will not take the place of an instructor, But the learning curve changes for the student. I have the G4.5 and it is not a vid game , It is a great tool if used right. You can make it into a game if you wish or have many great hours of enjoyment and when you go to the feild you fell like you have not been gone.
You learn a lot about and learn to fly a UAV by looking out of a window called a Simulator, Why doe's the military use them to help train Pilots. I have many hours in a LINK just to learn how to fly Man I still don't fly unless I have a plane or in one
Larry K


Rats What a habit to get into[:@] clicked the mouse in the wrong place and did not learn a thing.

Larry, I do not have 4.5 but I do have 3.5 and there are things about it that are very similar to real models and things that are not at all similar.
The visual perspective is different. Fact of life, my 19" monitor does not look anything like Paul's open expanse of property.
Takeoff roll. Every RF model I have tried rolls perfectly straight if I slam the throttle to full and do not touch the rudder. None of the real models I have tried do that.
Actual flying is pretty similar.
Landing some models seems realistic. Others, not so much.

I do think RC simulators are good tools.

I think trying to contact local flyers for some hands on assistance is more valuable though. One of our club members blew up the plans for a Goldberg trainer to a size suitable for a G23. No matter what else he brings to the field, he always has it and the buddy box. He loves instructing and is happy to take anyone up if they want. He also has a runway on his own property and has taught several non-AMA members there, using his own stuff.