Hi there, Its been a while since I have posted. Got married and had my honeymoon over the past few weeks so its all been going on! Good news...I'm still allowed to do RC!

Anyway. Since I bought my second plane (a T28 Trojan) a few months ago I have been really enjoying flying. I've hand launched, ground launched, flown in fields, flown at an airfield and even saw a hot air baloon taking off while I was flying at a local rugby club. But while flying yesterday (there was slight wind but I was patting myself on the back as the trojan flew by in a totally controlled manner) I thought to myself..."I never use the rudder". Now my last plane only had rudder so I obviously used it for all turning activities however with the T28 I do rolls, loops, eights and inverted but I rarely use the rudder. The more I thought about it the more I realised that in normal flight I never use it.

This made me wonder if I am missing out. I mean I could have purchased a plane that had no rudder, but I specifically didnt because I wanted "full controll".

Coming in for a landing I brought the plane around into the wind, lowered the throttle, corrected with a little airelon and landed nicely in the field. Exellent, another sucessful flight!


Let me know if you think I have stalled in my progression and need to start utilising the rudder to continue on the path to becomming an expert RC pilot.

Thanks
Adam_Fozz

Theres a couple of things that rudder are used for. I know in a full scale plane it is used for coordinating turns so that the nose of the aircraft is moving in the same direction as the turn. That way you arent sliding through the air in a messy looking turn. It requires right rudder when your in right bank, and vise versa. Another thing that rudder is used for is on crosswind landings. In a crosswing you need to apply alot of rudder and counter with bank in order to come in level. There is also some acrobatic manuvers that rudder is needed for.

Slow rolls, stall turns, knife edge flight, spins, to name a few instances.

Ok. Well it sounds like im on the right track then. I do use rudder for hammerheads, knife edges and 4 pt rolls. I just thought maybe people use the rudder during normal flight more than I do thats all. Though maybe I was gaining an over reliance on the airelons.

Thanks everyone.

While im on, does anyone know a good stunt plane (acrobatic plane) for me to get after the T28. It has to be electric and hopefully capable of landing in a field.

Not all full scale aircraft use rudder in turns....the 727 doesn't and when I was in the 777 sim I was told to leave rudder alone and was able to turn using just ailerons.....
You control an aircraft in 3 axis....pitch (elevators), Roll (ailerons), and Yaw (rudder)...yaw is the side to side movement of the nose......
When to use rudder....kicking out the crab doing a crosswind landing, helping in turns if the wind is strong......even doing a loop to keep the airplanes heading straight.....almost all aerobatics require the rudder some what.......
The best place I've found to learn rudder is pratice a flat turn, where you add rudder and opposite aileron to make the airplane skid around the turn.....
Good Luck

I will add steering on the ground.

If you get into aerobatics learning to correct the heading of the aircraft with rudder is crucial.

First of all...congrats on your nuptials...and on still being allowed to do RC!

Now...for the REALLY important stuff. *heheh*

First, allow me to STRONGLY recommend [link=http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Rudder-Explanation-Art-Flying/dp/0070362408]Stick and Rudder: An Explanation of the Art of Flying[/link] by Wolfgang Langewiesche. It's THE bible for pilots. Written BY a pilot, FOR pilots, it's not full of a bunch of engineering babble. It is, essentially, the best primer on how and why airplanes do what they do ever written. Yes, it's old...but hey, the laws of physics haven't changed. *heh* When a pilot (RC or scale) starts asking the sorts of questions you've asked, then it's time to dive into S&R, imo.

Among other things, it'll teach you why dufault is wrong when he says "In a crosswing you need to apply alot of rudder". CAN you fly a crosswind approach in an uncoordinated slip? Sure. SHOULD you? Depends on a host of factors, not the least of which simply being personal preference.

It'll also teach you why airplanes slip and skid...and how to use the rudder to avoid it....and when you should...and why.

It'll even teach you why the rudder doesn't turn the airplane...despite the fact that you've owned an airplane that only had a rudder for turning.

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Mastering the rudder is, imo, a MAJOR step between good pilots and excellent pilots...either in full scale or RC. Your airplane has 3 axes of rotation...ignoring the rudder is the same as ignoring 1/3 of the control you have over your airplane. Can you herd an object around the sky with only 2/3 of the control surfaces? Sure. Will your flying be greatly improved if you master all 3? Absolutely.

Those aircraft have something called a yaw damper.

I would have to ask , How does one fly with out rudder ? I guess you could fly without rudder but control of your plane would bevery limited . Have you ever seen a person landing and the wings are rocking up and down, with the plane bobbing all over the place ? Their not using rudder. Or when you have a crosswind on landing , the guys that fly with rudder , can land the plane on the runway ,the ones that dont use rudder ,usually end up landing into the wind across the runway , which can be fun to watch ,as they do not really have control of the plane.
Learn to use your rudder and you well be a much better pilot for it.
I cannot recommend a new plane for you , as I dont fly electrics , but I`m sure there are many people on RCU that can hep you with that. Good luck and get to know your rudder. lol

entered in error

Couldn't agree more

Couldn't agree less.

What you've just said is that only those who INTENTIONALLY UNCOORDINATE their airplane are truly in control of it.

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Rudder's like every other control surface we have. It has a purpose (to control yaw in this case). Period. The decision to use that control to accomplish certain things is one based on dozens of factors...very rarely is "being right" one of them.

An example:

I landed my Edge in 10-12kt crosswind components all day yesterday. In MY case, I never touched the rudder on any approach. Indeed, in that situation, I have a rather strong RELUCTANCE to touch the rudder.

Why? Simple..."crabbing" as many call it...using the rudder to line up straight with the runway...is, BY DEFINITION, putting the airplane into an un-coordinated condition. I'm not a real big fan of un-coordinated flight with very little of my 2 best friends on hand...especially when i can't feel the airplane under my butt.

What's the upside? Simple...if I stall that airplane, it's going to break nose down. That's recoverable, or at worst, less damaging than a spin at that altitude.

What's the downside? My final's ground track isn't "straight" with relation to the runway...so I get to do some judgment work to wind up where I want to be over the threshold.

Am I "wrong"? Of course not. I put my plane on the ground in complete control, and kept it out of a "dangerous" un-coordinated condition.

Was I "right"?...well...yeah..."right" in the sense that my airplane survived...but certainly not "right" in the sense that that's the only way to do it. Plenty of fellows handled the same approach with a crab, and landed their airplanes with skill and accuracy as well.

As it happens, our field is arranged such that the approach I flew never took the airplane into a "forbidden" zone. What if our field was different...or flight line longer...or whatever? Maybe then the coordinated approach runs the airplane over a house, or flight line, or pit, or whatever. Clearly, in that case, "right" would be to avoid that situation...and that may, indeed, require an un-coordinated approach. So be it.

Interestingly, in full scale, I'm quite the opposite. I have a STRONG preference for slipping down final in a crosswind. I'm more comfortable with an un-coordinated airplane when I can feel what's happening, and the slip's natural tendency to shed altitude lets me fly a bit higher approach...always a bonus. Again, CAN I fly a coordinated approach in a crosswind? Sure...and I have and will when the situation calls for it. And, again...neither is inherently right or wrong.

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The point here is that I absolutely agree with you. Learn to use all 4 of your controls, and you'll be a much better pilot.

But, imo, truly mastering them means understanding what they're actually doing to the airplane...and that, frequently, they aren't as "necessary" as many make them out to be.

If you're not using rudder, you're really not controlling the plane. It sounds like you're flying out in a field which is great if you can. Chances are it doesn't matter how or where you land there. Flying on a regulation field one of the first goals of learning to fly RC is making straight and level shots down the runway, and then landing in the middle of said runway. I haven't seen anybody do it yet consistently without using rudder. When learning aerobatics, you'll rarely make perfectly straight loops without some rudder control, and uplines and downlines will rarely come out right either. Even in just flying ovals, the rudder lets you put the airplane exactly where you want it to be and then to keep it there.

I think it is a little extreme to say that you aren't controlling the plane if you aren't using rudder. I have a park flyer that is just ailerons and elevator, does that mean that this plane is uncontrollable? What about delta wings? Are they uncontrollable?

I am not trying to start an argument or anything, but I think that using rudder while just flying around and having fun is not all that necessary most of the time. The OP said that he uses the rudder in aerobatics that demand it, so he is using rudder, just not while flying the pattern, which is alright as far as I'm concerned.

Now, with that being said, some planes do need rudder all the time to make coordinated turns, other planes are very forgiving with just using ailerons and elevators. The T-28 is one that can just use its ailerons and elevator for nice turns.

Enough has been said about rudder so in answer to your other question a very good plane is the Great Plains Edge. I fly mine with an e-flite 25 and it's perfect.

The rudder is for steering the nose of the airplane. If you weren't supposed to use it, they wouldn't put it on the airplane. Experiment with it, try all kinds of different things. You will figure out when you want to use it and when not to. It is a hobby, so if you want to make all your turns with ailerons and no rudder, do it!

I use my ailerons mostly to keep the wings level, and make heading corrections with my rudder. If I make an aileron turn, I use rudder to 'kick the tail around' so the plane makes a nice carving track through the sky. I flew a couple of full scale Cessnas and they have a little bubble that tells you when the tail is level with the nose (or something like that) in a turn. If you turn with only ailerons, the bubble goes out of level. You use rudder to keep the bubble level, which is called coordinating the turn.

I live near the local airport, and I like to watch planes fly over my head on approach. You can really see planes crabbing with the wind. If I land in a cross wind, I crab the airplane and use the rudder to kick the tail inline just before the plane touches down.

Couldn't agree less. [img]{akamaiimageforum}/image/s45.gif[/img]

What you've just said is that only those who INTENTIONALLY UNCOORDINATE their airplane are truly in control of it.

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You know, I looked over my post and be danged if I can see where I wrote that..

*heh*

As allfat said...it's a little extreme to say "If you're not using rudder, you're really not controlling the plane." If the situation doesn't demand a change on the Yaw axis, there's no reason to use the rudder.

And it ABSOLUTELY "matters where you land" at the field I was at yesterday. Not sure what you mean by a "regulation field", since i'm unaware of any rule or regulation dictating the shape and size of a field, beyond minimum distances for safety purposes. It is, however, a paved (narrow) runway, with a flight line, fence, pit area, boundry lines, residential area, etc...in other words, the same sorts of constraints any other field might or might not have.

It just so happens that the approach didn't require overflying any of those...so i used it. Sat the plane down at the threshold, in the middle, and stopped well before the first "turnoff" area. in other words...they were all routine, normal, proficient landings.

Have I flown in other places that were far more demanding? Sure. Do the demands sometimes require a slip in a corsswind? Absolutely. Note, please...I made no assertion that slipping through a crosswind was somehow wrong or bad...indeed, I made clear I PREFER that method in scale flight. It's just something I choose not to do in RC flight, unless the situation requires it.

Again...I absolutely agree...mastery of the rudder is ESSENTIAL for becoming a truly competent pilot.

I simply maintain that many of the old saws about "you can't do this without rudder" simply aren't true.

From coordinated flight, a yaw moment uncoordinates the airplane, by definition. You just told us that if you don't use rudder in a crosswind, you don't really have control of the plane. Thus:

What you've just said is that only those who INTENTIONALLY UNCOORDINATE their airplane are truly in control of it.

*shrug*

If we presume "X" to be the necessary correction factor to account for a crosswind:

Pilot A crabs his airplane X amount...flying it uncoordinated (simply meaning its direction of travel into the relative wind does not follow its nose)...such that the ground track is in line with the runway. He puts the airplane down at the threshold (dealing with sideloads on the gear if necessary), stops it short of the end, shuts down, calls it a flight.

Pilot B flies his airplane starting X degrees right or left of the runway threshold, maintaining coordinated flight, and allows the crosswind to bring his groundtrack to an intersection with the runway threshold at touchdown (dealing with sideloads on the gear if necessary), stops it short of the end, shuts down, calls it a flight.

Pilot C points his airplane X degrees right or left of the runway threshold, again maintaining coordinated flight, and flies a groundtrack in line with the runway. He puts the airplane down at the threshold (dealing with sideloads on the gear if necessary), stops it short of the end, shuts down, calls it a flight.

Are any one of those guys not in control? Of course not. And, admittedly, each of those 3 methods has its own challenges, benefits, drawbacks, and places. 2 of them, however, don't require the use of the rudder during the approach.

Is any one of them 'better" than the other? Obviously not, if they all result in safe operation, and safe recovery of the aircraft. (Any landing you can walk away from....)

Take gaRCfield's statement...He uses the rudder to kick the tail "inline" just before the plane touches down.

Is he in "less control" than someone who used the rudder all the way down the approach?

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Not using the rudder because you don't know how it works is, indeed, sacrificing some control of the aircraft. Those who don't use rudder due to lack of understanding are, indeed, not in full control of their airplane. They've given up 1/4 of the available means they have to control the airplane.

To say, however, that rudder MUST be used to be 'in control" is a fallacy however. It's akin to saying ailerons MUST be used to remain in control. If the airplane's doing what you want it to do, and you're capable of maintaining that condition...you're in control.

Assuming you are flying the Parkzone T-28, the Typhoon would be a good next plane. It's considered more of a 3D plane so it is also capable of just about any aerobatics. It uses the same batteries and electronics as the T-28 and is just as easy and cheap to repair.

I'm a novice at this RC game, but I did used to be a full size glider pilot. Anyhow a bod at my local flying field suggested I put about 15% - 20% rudder mix in with my ailerons, this seems to work fine. But I guess it's cheating.

The rudder mix will work for you only if you fly straight and level. If you do any aerobatics you will run into trouble. For instance, if you fly an up line and notice that the wings are rolling a little to the left, as soon as you apply right aileron you will also be appling right rudder , and the plane will veer off to the right. Or if you are flying inverted, a left aileron input will now also give you right rudder. Imho it is best to just learn to fly without the mixes. My 2 cents.


Lm

Some planes show so much adverse yaw with aileron that if you don't use the rudder to coordinate, you basically can't turn them. Cubs that are very true-to-scale are sometimes like that, I have a Tiger Moth that is close, and I flew a friends Yard Stick plane where full aileron with no rudder did almost nothing.

Of course you can do a lot with a computer radio and aileron differential to "fix" this kind of tendancy, but sometimes a plane's "bad habbits" are half the fun, espeically when they match the full-scale somewhat.

Plenty of planes fly just fine with just aileron-elevator-throttle though.

I agree that using a mix to avoid using the rudder in a turn is a bad idea. Using a mix to counter control coupling in an aerobatic plane is fine, but that's totally different.

It's safer to steer your model onto the runway when landing with the rudder instead of the ailerons. Less apt to stall the slow and already close to a stall wing. The aileron deflection from steering will stall one side when/if it happens, and there's no room to recover.

It's also safer to steer your liftoff with the rudder for the same reason. The wing isn't up to full speed, and is working at high angle of attack and a downgoing aileron has a good chance of stalling that side.

Using the rudder to correct the direction of the plane doesn't do those things.

Rudder??????????

I merely meant that you need to apply rudder in a crosswind if you want to come in strait and level with the runway. I never said you had to do it, it was only an example of rudder function. Im pretty sure Im not wrong about that.

you can use the rudder when landing with a crosswind...it's very effective to help control the plane right before touchdown. Especially if you want to fly in the wind... and everyone needs to learn how to handle the wind or you sit and watch others fly . Also you use it to make your turns look more coordinated. Aileron only turns can look really strange and non scale looking. Also if you want to fly any kind of 3d you will use it almost more than your ailerons. The best way to learn rudder control is to get a cheap 3d foamy plane.... those defiantly require more rudder than aileron to fly