luker737

My Feedback: (11)

For some reason I'm haveing trouble taking off I get two or three good take offs then I loose the plane on take off .What i mean loose the plane is I over correct try to take off an end up crashing.I'm flying a 40 size trainer thats a tail dragger . Can someone give me a idea what to do to stop this.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

Well, first off, you said a 40 size trainer that's a tail dragger. That's not a good way to start off.. tail dragger that is, but it's not insurmountable.

First thing you do is keep the tail down by applying full up elevator (pull the elevator stick full toward you) for the beginning of the take off roll. This is to keep tail wheel control on the ground rather than solely relying on the rudder for control because as soon as the tail wheel lifts off, the vertical stab will tend to vane into the wind.... if the wind is not directly on the nose, well, your plane will veer in the direction of the wind and it's possible.. probable, that you are over-correcting with the rudder.

As soon as you get enough speed to allow full RUDDER control, then you can release the elevator and steer with the rudder. This often happens pretty quickly, meaning you will have full elevator for perhaps the first 20 feet (estimate only) of the take off roll, but it's enough to keep the tail wheel in contact with the ground. But, as soon as you release it, the tail will rise and you will be controlling the direction with the rudder. Remember, you are using three controls here.. throttle, rudder, and elevator. This takes some muscle memory and takes time to develop... but you have to work on this.

Next, one thing you can do to prevent over-correction is to add some exponent to the rudder so that the first movement of the stick is a bit softer than it is with full stick deflection. Practice taking off with applying just as much rudder as you need to keep the nose pointed in the direction you want it to go, which can be a problem with over-correction on take off, which is what it sounds like you are encountering.

Do not go to full throttle the instant you want to take off. Apply it slow enough for the plane to start rolling then add throttle slowly, meaning don't push the throttle to full open immediately, but take a couple of seconds for it to go to full. This way, you won't apply a lot of torque all at once. That too will cause your plane to react differently, tending to turn in the direction of that torque.

I'm sure others will have suggestions... but digest what you read here and take it slow. Eventually, your take-off's will be perfect.

CGr.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

In a word, practise.

There are a few seconds where control is critical - and it varies with each model, but basically it's when the tail is up, but there is not much air flowing over the rudder.

One thing you can try is to use less power on take off. After all, this is not a race, so don't try to blast the plane into the air. Try doing a take off at 3/4 throttle next time.

And when you do make corrections, make them slowly. Don't jam the sticks to one side ir the other, gently ease them to each side - even if it meand going off the runway a bit. It's sort of like driving a car - If you're heading off the road, it's better to turn gingerly and go onto the shoulder a bit than to crank the wheel and flip the car over!

goirish

I have to smile CG. All the things you said to do, I didn't the other day. I chased that Cub all over the field. Ground loop left, then ground loop right. I thought geeze, I did to go back on the buddy box. English muffin, homemade strawberry jam, coffee. What a way to start the morning.

Tom Nied

Very hard to tell from your description. Maybe be more descriptive of conditions. What is the model. Are you taking off of grass? Do you have one of those springy Sullivan tailwheels? A rudder that has large deflection? Will the model track straight when the rudder is neutral? Describe conditions, what the model does, and what you are doing when you loose control and over control.

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

G'Mornin Gene.

I'm down in Florida for the week.. finally got some time off away from all the profile flying for work and this ADS-B project. Jeech.. we've been busy.
Breakfast is the usually Special K with fresh blueberries, a banana, toast and Starbucks Komoto Dragon coffee. The Dunky-Do Decaf is for work.. ha.

Yeah, you know, it took me a long time to do all of the above on take off rolls. It seems that jamming the throttle to full open then hoping for the best is what most of us seem to do before we learn to do things correctly in spite of what we learned. My instructor started me right from the git-go to apply full up elevator for the start of each take-off roll telling me that it will really come in handy once I switch from trike gear to tail dragger... which it certainly did. Adding some expo to the rudder also helped, but at times, when the wind is ok, I just let it vane into the wind and lift off when I am satisfied with my ground speed, but that is only with certain models. Our field is pretty big so I have lots of room to do so. Not everyone has that luxury, though, so learning proper take-off techniques is important.

You guys keep talking about your Cubs. I think that's my next plane. Any suggestions on which one I should work with? (sorry.. I didn't mean to hijack this thread).

How have you been? How is the Son-in-Law doing?

CGr.

luker737

My Feedback: (11)

A'm i understanding y'all right your tell me to us full up elevator at first and raise the throttle up slow as the airplaine raises speed and lifts off then use the rudder to controlle the plane.Once the plane lifts release the elevator and let the plane climbuseing light up elevator.

jester_s1

Beginners often have the problem of chasing their plane on takeoff, which means letting it get out of shape and then overreacting which gets it out of shape the other way. Next time out, do a roll out test. That means start your takeoff roll, then abort after about 50 feet. Watch what the plane does (usually will turn right). Then put in some correction before the planes starts rolling (left rudder) and do it again. It may take 2 or 3 attempts to get the right correction, but you'll find the sweet spot where the plane rolls out straight. Then extend it out longer and see how it responds (usually will start turning left as it picks up speed). You'll find that as the plane builds speed the rudder becomes more effective so you'll need to reduce your correction until it's gone completely just after takeoff. This way, you are actually controlling the airplane and telling it what to do instead of the other way around.

luker737

My Feedback: (11)

How much exponemt would you start with 25% or more.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Not quite...

Full up as you start - this will keep the sudden power for causing the plane to nose-over. But soon after the plane starts to move, relax the elevator to let the tail come up.

Now you are doing that famous balancing act known as, "Flying the tail".

At this point, all planes are different. You may need to hold a little up, or you may not. You will probably need to hold some rudder to correct for torque, but how much will differ from one plane to the next or with different runway or wind conditions.

As for Expo, I usually start at 35% (That's MINUS 35% if you use Futaba equipment)

Korps

Do you have someone to teach you, like an instructor?

I started off with an Ultra Stick which is a daildragger - I had to solo my first flight (well not first - first time I flew was with a buddies Super Air around on buddy box for 5 minutes). Now the day I went out with the Ultra Stick - buddy cable didn't work for some reason - I had to solo or wait another week or two - couldn't wait. I had a go at taking off 5 times before I got into the air. Everytime I would overcorrect or not correct at all and off the runway I went. But everytime time I tried, I got a feel and concentrated on what the plane was doing when. Well to say the least, luckily I figured out what CG said in those 4 mishap tries. It's all about practise and really concentrating on seeing what the plane is doing when and what you are doing to either correct it or overcorrect it, or in my case not correct it.

Best of luck to you, but if you don't have someone who can teach you, then please find someone.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Start off with 0% expo. Meaning don't use expo as you are learning to fly. You need to learn to properly fly the plane before you start using expo in your radio.

What Minnflyer and CGRetired have said is right on the money. I'd like to add something else that many people learning to fly (and even many experienced pilots as well) do. They try to "force" a take off when a plane gets squirrelly on the runway. This happens a lot when people let the plane get away from in and it starts swerving all over the runway or heading towards the pits, edge of the runway, or other obstacles and they will try to pull up and get the plane in the air 99% of the time doing this makes the plane go from a bad situation to a disaster. A slightly out of control plane on the ground usually translates to a crash in progress once it's off the ground. Students need to learn that in situations like this the best thing to do is chop the throttle and abort the takeoff.

Ken

pdm52956

My Feedback: (1)

Just my guess, but I'm thinking that right now you're probably using aileron to correct. I know that's what I always did when I was first learning. It took me a while to learn proper rudder, and there are times now that I'm not always sure I did. [sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

If you do have an instructor, ask him to help you learn to use rudder. It's an important part of flying and as you progress you'll find times when that rudder will get you out of difficult situations that aileron will only make worse. If you don't have an instructor, it would serve you well to seek one out.

Another thing that helps is simulator time. It isn't the real thing but it will allow you the chance to develope your skills in an environment that gets close, and it has a reset button that your transmitter doesn't have. Just remember that it's too easy to "play" on the sim simply because of the reset button so use it wisely. That tendancy to play can get transfered over to the real flying and that costs more than it's worth sometimes.

Most of all practice, practice, practice! Stick time is key. Good luck and have fun with it!

CGRetired

My Feedback: (1)

That too could be part of it. If so, then that's FOUR inputs instead of three!!! Busy.

Now, you probably know why I don't fly helicopters... I just have two hands and one brain. Those heli guys really DO have three or four hands and probably more than one brain. [X(]

Korps

Helicopters? It's eeeeasssy man! You give throttle it goes up, you lower throttle it comes down, you yaw it turns its nose, you bank and it banks!!!!EASY!!! or did I miss something hehehehehe I'm just kidding

beau0090_99

I echo what has been said here above and I would like to add one thing too. It is a setup thing and might be helpful to have a proficient pilot/modeler help you with, and that is to add some toe-in to your landing gear. If you're not familiar it is when you are looking down at your wheels from above (forward facing up), the fronts of the wheels are closer to each other than the rears. With a tail dragger, this is a must. The physics works like this... When the plane starts to veer off course, the wheel that is on the outside of the turn will become more misaligned with the proper direction of travel/ the other wheel will be more aligned with the proper direction of travel, and the difference in drag on the wheels will help the plane automatically steer back to center. You don't need much (maybe 2-5 degrees - eyeball it), but it may help a lot.

Also echo the slow roll - taildraggers tend to be more prone to torque steer than most trikes (in my experience), and starting slow will help. What I do is start from a stop, slowly start up to about 1/4 throttle while holding the elevator (up pitch), as the plane accelerates I gradually let go of elevator. The tail will naturally come up to counter act the effect of wing incidence. Oce the tail is floating, I will gradually bring the throttle up to full or 3/4. By then I can usually relax my control of the rudder a little bit. Before this, I will always be controlling the rudder. Abot 1/2 throttle the plane will usually come of the ground. I let it just accelerate through the air before pulling any elevation, this will help prevent stalls as I can get some speed under the wings.

Hope this helps and good luck. Hopefully it will be a good weekend to practice.
C

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

Unless you are flying a counter rotating engine all standard tractor props pull left when slow with high power settings, and therefore need right rudder. The only reason it would pull right otherwise is if you have way too much right thrust.

Lnewqban

If the trainer has been modified from a trike, it could be that the wheels have been placed too advanced, which makes the model more dificult to control.

Alabama Racer

One technique that helps many with learning to take of is to stand straight behind the airplane - if your
field conditions/rules..... allow this. You can see what the plane is doing (right to left) sooner and smoothly correct
before the corrections become exaggerated and out of control.
Of course, do not do this if there are other planes in the air as you might become a target for a spot landing
contest. When you get the straight down the runway issue resolved, then you can move back to the
side of the runway and the previous skills should transfer to the new spot where you are standing.

ndb8fxe

My Feedback: (1)

I think this is pretty good advise. I have many many years flying taildraggers and to this day if I start a takeff from the side when the plane if right in front of me (wing pointing at me) it is difficult to see if the plane is yawing left or right. Like many others are saying the most likely cause of your problem is overcorrecting. depending on the angle you are looking at it can be difficult to see that the plane is getting out of wack until it's too late and an overcorrection is inevitable. Standing behind the plane will allow you to see the yaw much earlier and you will be able to make minor corrections and keep it straight down the runway.

Another tip I would have is to anticipate what your plane will do. Planes weathervane into the wind when on the ground. So if the wind is say left to right(persective of the airplane) the plane will try to turn to the left. Torque and P-factor will complicate this left turning. So in this case you know you will need right rudder to keep it down the runway before you even start. You are ahead of the game by knowing what to expect.

bruce88123

Another thing MANY beginners and even some "experts" do is build in too much control in the first place. At most you should be barely able to turn around in the width or your runway, maybe not even that. You are not running a slalom course and the plane will over-steer less if you have less throw available. As a beginner you won't need full rudder for your maneuvers anyway. You can always increase throws as you grow. If you have dual rates on the rudder you can set it lower for takeoff and crank it up in flight. I often do that with my radio.

red head

I HATE it when someone stands behind a plane on Take off. It means they aren't learning correctly and probably will always have the same problem. Be sides, now are you going to stand on one end of the runway to take off and land and be a pain to everyone else.
Slow it down and practice, practice, practice the right way. Chances are you are just trying to hard and to FAST. ENJOY !!! RED

luker737

My Feedback: (11)

Thanks y'all for all the information this should help me greatly.

Korps

In my opinion - true and untrue. I always thought that lower was better - however that extra throw can get you out of trouble, where if you have to little it may result in a crash.

bruce88123

We are talking about beginners here and MOST beginners won't remember to use the rudder in an emergency anyway.