blacktails

My Feedback: (1)

I'm going to give RC planes a try (at age 53), and will soon be shopping for a good ARF trainer. I have a few questions about some things that I hope you guys can help me with.

1st: Should I be looking for a 40 or 60 sized plane, and what are the advantages of one over the other?

2nd: I have a pickup with a 5 1/2 ft. bed, which will possibly limit me on the wingspan of whatever I buy. Are the wings for trainers transportable in 2 halves, or are all trainer wing halves glued together into one long wing? This really is the key factor in whatever plane I end up buying.

3rd: I'd prefer a plane that uses wing bolts, unless they really aren't recommended for beginners. The rubber bands look bad to me and look like an alignment hassle. Are there any recommended trainers that use wing bolts, or should I stick to rubber bands?

4th: As for the engine, I'll buy whatever size is recommended for whatever size plane I get. However, I happen to have a VERY, VERY old (25+ years) K&B 40 that is basically new, with probably only a couple of hours on it, if that. It has been properly stored, so it should run fine. If I end up buying a 40 sized plane, would this be okay to use, or should I just buy a modern .46 engine instead?

5th: I do have a NIB Saito FA62a that I bought along with a Pulse XT 40 ARF. I was going to start off learning with these until I was later advised I'd be much better off to learn on a high wing trainer first. Should I run the Saito in my first trainer, or should I save it until I am skilled enough to fly the Pulse XT?

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

Charlie P.

Lots of options here. I don't know that I'd put a Saito FA62 in a trainer, but it is a possibility and would be a sweet choice. Might be an expensive "ouch" in the event of a dirt-knap. If you can get the K&B .40 churning (I'd try it on a test stand first) you could put that in a trainer. I like the Global RCM 40 (which has wing bolts and a two-piece wing if you so choose).

The advantage to a .60 size trainer is that ther are easier to see amd less wind sensitive

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

1st: Bigger flies better. A .60-size trainer will be easier to see in the air and will generally be more stable, but there isn't a huge difference.

2nd: You can put the wing in the truck bed diagonally, so a 6.5' or 7' wing might still fit.

3rd: Wing bolts can be just as big of pain or worse than rubber bands. Disregard this as a decision factor, rubber bands aren't bad and wing bolts aren't that great.

4th: There's no reason why your K&B .40 can't fly any of the commonly available trainer ARFs. I'd say go ahead and use it.

5th: Save the Saito FA62a for the Pulse XT 40 ARF. It would power a .40 or .60-size trainer just fine, but you'd need to rework the throttle linkage a fair bit. You already have the K&B .40, and there isn't much point to putting a $200 4-stroke at risk while you learn the basics. The four stroke would give you longer flight times due to better fuel economy, however.

The plane you want is the World Models Sky Raider Mach I trainer:

http://ecsvr.com/abm/shopexd.asp?id=2925

This $99.99 trainer ARF has a nice big 65" wingspan (1" shorter than your truck bed) and a bolt-on wing. It's well made and comes with good hardware, but the instructions may be a bit sparse if you haven't built an ARF before. It would fly very well with your K&B .40 engine.

Good luck and good shopping!

DMcQuinn

My Feedback: (13)

1) I like .60 size trainers. They're more stable and give older trainees a little more time to react. Better in the wind also. Only downside is slightly more money
2) All the trainers I can think of have a one piece wing. Probably 6 feet long.
3) Rubber bands are pretty practical. Put a mark at the centerline of the wing at the leading edge and trailing edge. Make a similar mark on the fuselage saddle. Line them up when you put on the rubber bands.
4) The K&B was a classic low cost .40 glow engine. It will probably work fine. The new engines are even better however. If you buy a new one see if you can afford one with two needle valves (high speed and low speed) and a ball-bearing crankshaft. The are basically two tiers of glow engines. The low-cost engines have a single needle valve and a bushing-supported crank. The better engines have two needle valves and ball bearing supported cranks. Most major manufacturers supply both types. With OS, for example, their low-cost line is called "LA" and the better version is the "AX". A OS .46 LA may cost $90 while the OS .46 AX may cost $120. The more expensive engine will run more reliably and produce more power. Both will last a long time.
5)The Saito is an excellent engine and you can use it in your trainer. There is a slight risk that you could damage it in a crash, but if you get an instructor with buddy box, you really should not crash.

OzMo

My Feedback: (3)

HI,
Welcome, I have to agree with a couple of the prevoius responses. Bigger is a bit better for training. However if you already have a 40 size engine that in my opinion outweighs the benifits of going bigger. 40 size trainers are fine. I also agree with going with a basic inexpensive ARF.
Trainers WILL get bonked around. They WILL need repairs so basic is easier to fix. The K&B should work fine. You might consider new o rings especially on the needle valve. You also might
do a search on exaclty that motor for things to watch out for and tricks to make it run well. Some of the K&Bs had marginal carbs. After market replacements were common, they even came with Perry carbs on certain models. Perry carbs are still available for them by the way.
Good luck its a fine hobby! oh yeah remeber all arfs need a good going through. Fire wall, landing gear blocks, wing hold down blocks (if bolt on), check hinges WELL, check glue joints such as rthe tail feathers WELL. Bigger wheels make like easier on turf.

Dr1Driver

For training, larger is better. The novice can see the plane better, and a larger plane will usually be more stable in windy conditions. The movements of the plane may be slower and smoother, too.

Most trainers have one-piece wings for sturdiness and ease of building. You can modify a kit to be two piece, but I wouldn't recommend this for a novice builder. If your truck has a sliding back window, you can stick part of the wing through that, or, as someone else suggested, lay it diagnonally in the bed.
I understand your feelings about rubber bands. However, for the novice, they're definitely the best way to go. If you catch a wingtip or cartwheel with a bolt-on wing, you'll likely tear the fuselage sides out. The rubber bands let the wing move upon impact and you usually end up with little damage. Let me say a few words about rubber bands. Use one band per side for every pound of plane weight, then use one band on each side criss-crossed. This sorta locks the other bands into place. Do NOT reuse rubber bands from day to day. Sunlight and glow fuel are MAJOR enemies of bands, and they will quickly stretch and become unusable. The old trick of keeping them in a jar of cornstarch just doesn't work that well. They're cheap and replacing them daily is cheap insurance. Since I mentioned cost - a rubber band is a rubber band is a rubber band. Any time a manufacturer marks something "for hobby use" the price skyrockets. Go to Office Depot and pick up a big bulk bag of bands for your size plane. This will usually be #64s for .40-.60 size trainers.

That old K&B should run fine, but probably won't have much power. One caveat I will give you on engine selection: get the largest engine recommended for your kit. If it's a .40-.60 range, get the .60. Power is your friend and will get you out of many bad situations. If the plane is too fast, you can throttle down or change props. Remember, if using a 4 stroke engine go up about one size. For example, if your kit recommends .40-.60 two stroke, go to a .90 4 stroke. They don't develop quite the power the two strokes do.

The Saito is a good engine. It will do well in a .40 size Cub or similar trainer-type. A high wing plane is inherently more stable and I definitely recommend it for a novice. Lots of dihedral will make the plane stable and help by making it sort of self-recovering. That is, it will want to fly straight and level. Don't rely on the design of the plane to fly itself. You will actually need to make some control inputs yourself. <grin> On the two stroke-four stroke debate, two strokes generally make more power per cu.in., and are usually easier to set up and keep running right. The novice wants as few complications and distractions as they can get.

You're doing the right thing by asking questions before jumping in. There is a lot of experience on this board. I've been in R.C over 30 years, and I'll be glad to tell you anything I know. On that point, I won't give advice that I haven't either done or seen done successfully. If you have a long or complicated question, you can also reach me at [email protected].

Good luck and keep us posted.

TimBle

I would opt for a .60size ARF. its bigger so its' easier to see and it's a little more stable. At age 53 I'm not sure if your eyes are as good as they used to be but chances are they are not so bigger helps here.
A .40 size trainer is not much smaller but they do fit into cars a little easier; the 100mm less on wingspan and length helps.I chose a .40 size trainer for this reason. I had 1.55m space and a Green Model Tempo just fit.It was also the largest 40 size trainerI could find. It's about 10cm larger in spoand and length than a Primary 40 but just as lightand not as strong.
I powered it with a GMS2000 0.47 engine and its a screamer,. good throttle response, excellent power, responds well to tuning needles and its easy and cheap to run. Can't recommend it more.
Trainers tends to be larger than regular .40 or .60 size planes


Wings for trainers don;t have to be permanently joined but they do have to be temporarily joined via a strap tp preventthey coming apart in flight. both a .40 size and .60 size will fit into a 5 1/2 foot load bed.

stick to rubber bands. When you crash they allow the wing to move , limiting damage. They also make alignment easier believe it or not. Often with ARF's youhave alignment issues with factory fitted blind nuts and other parts so often you will have to re-work the airframe. Rubber bands are quick and easy and if you fitted rubber strip between on the Fuselage where the wing rests they won't slip in flight. Stick with rubber bands here.

Chances are that K&Bis going to be down on power compared to a modern chinese made .4 through to .47 engine. You don;t want under powered because it makes take off and landing a hassle. If you learning to land youoften need to go around to get your approach right. An under powered aircraft will make it stressful. With power you can fly out of a stall and go around to try again. Save the K&Bfor a .40 size Piper cub or similar once you have more experience.

Four Strokes can bedifficult to tune and set up for beginners. However, they are not difficult to understand and if you have an instructor he/she should be able to educate you on tuning and seting up the 4 stroke. Two Strokes are more forgiving to accidents and cheaper to replace inthe event of a bad accident. My head would say get a two stroke with your trainer and keep the Pulse XT as is with motor till you are ready for your second plane. Your trainer will have taught you everything you need to know to get the max out of the Pulse XT by then.

Your trainer will be the plane you will spend the most amount of time with. Get to know it intimately. but always, always, apply "Keep It Simple Stupid"
Worked for me. the result is I ent from complete novice to Intermediate flyer in less than 3 months.
Focus on one plane, lear everything you can about trimming, engine set up, altering CG nd the impact on flight characterisics, etc etc on this one plane. If you get a good education you can aply it to any other aircraft thereafter.

blacktails

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks for all of the tips. It looks like a fun hobby, and there are a couple of local R/C clubs nearby in Redmond and Snohomish/Monroe. I'll definitely check in with one of these and see about possibly joining and working with a instructor to learn to fly. Any and all advice is appreciated. Thanks.

Delta3

There is a lot of good information here and here is a little more, keep things as simple as possible but buy the best gear you can afford. If you have the choice buy the slightly more expensive motor, OS and Thunder Tiger make good gear some of the other cheaper engines should only be used as a sinker at the end of a fishing line. The extra $20 or $30 you spend in cash will save you countless hours trying to make crappy engines go well. As for radio gear same deal applies buy quality gear with 20 model memory and it will grow with your stable of aircraft, buy a cheaper radio and you will soon run out of model memory. The reason I tell you this is that in the long run it will save you money, time and above all give you the ability to switch and engine from one plane to another knowing that there is plenty of power there to cart the bird around the sky.

This is a fantatic hobby, you will meet some great people and make some lifelong friends.

Dr1Driver

"Delta3" makes some good points. The price difference between a low-end engine and a top-of-the-line isn't all that much. The higher quality engine will endure your mis-tuning while you're learning, and then will last you for many, many hours of enjoyable flying without constant tinkering. A radio with all the bells and whistles will make setting up your plane MUCH easier, and you can fine tune it to your flying skills later on. Once you use exponential, EPA, servo reversing and a few other features, you'll wonder how you could do it without them. Again, the cost isn't that much more than an "economy" model.

TimBle

a word on the "cheap crappy engines"

The gap between the so called cheap crappy engines and the O.S and whatever else of this world is so small that you'll laugh it off.

The problem you will find in this hobby is that some folk have been in it for so longthey only know the big brand names and therefore are distrustful of everything else.
You will find amongst newer folk to the hobby that brands like Corona, towerpro, GMS, Evolution, ASP, Magnum are also mostly trouble free and so close in qulaity to the JR's, O.S, and Enya's of this world that there is really is little too choose from.  In my experience an OS of similar size to a ASp costs nearly twice as much. So if you're starting out, for me its a no brainer that loosing a $50 engine is nicer than loosing a $100 engine

You will find that the cheaper engines have spares that are more affordable and therefore in the event of a big prang you will smile at how cheap it is too rebuild one of the ASP or GMS engines.

I would not compromise on safety related items like:

Elevator and Rudder servo's: if anything you don't want these to fail.
Radio transmitter and receiver: any of the 6 channel and more  prgrammable models from the reputable brands are excellent and have the required programs.
quality of your wing to fuselage joining; check this regularly I've seen win and fuse come apart mid flight with the still spinning motor taking the fuse deep into the bush.

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

The original poster, blacktails, didn't ask anything pertaining to the price of equipment or anything of a "this brand" vs. "that brand" nature. Since he happily shelled out the cash for a Pulse XT 40 ARF and a Saito .62 4-stroke and then decided he should get another plane together to fly first, I don't think saving $20 or $40 is his top concern. Answering questions that haven't been asked will be of little help.

He just wants a good .40 or .60 size trainer that will fit in his truck. He'd prefer a bolt-on wing rather than a rubber-band-and-dowels setup, but he'll go with rubber bands and dowels if the "experts" recommend it. He already has a K&B .40 2-stroke and a Saito .62 4-stroke and he wants to know which, if either, he should use on his trainer.

If you think the original poster should buy a particular engine, or if you have any other advice for setting up a good trainer, simply explain why.

Dr1Driver

Who are you, the Post Police? It's no skin off your nose who answers the OP and how they answer. At least those who made recommendations added to the thread and didn't simply just criticize the other posts. Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black...if YOU have something to say that's germane to the OP's questions, then please jump in - otherwise...

krashkart

My Feedback: (5)

Just my two cents worth.
I was in this before and made mistakes.
Start with something cheap, like a .40 sized overhead wing trainer as you were told. You can find them used at a local club or Craig's list if you have that locally.
You are going to crash, it's just a matter of time and we all do it.
Don't spend a lot of money on the first plane due to that fact.
And many find a simple simulator is good to have too. You can practice on the computer when the WX is bad. I have the RealFlight Basic. Yes it does not do all the things that the bigger version does, but it does give you practice on various types of aircraft.
Much cheaper to crash and hit that magic "reset" button!

carrellh

One more opinion, from a 50 year old who wears "coke bottle" glasses for nearsightedness and astigmatism:

40 size because you have a 40 size engine. My first trainers were 60 size but would have been 40 size if I already had an engine. I now have a 40 size trainer that was given to me by a club member.

Most are one piece. Most 40 size trainer wings are 5'0" to 5'3". As already mentioned, even a six foot wing will fit diagonally.

Bolts or bands doesn't really matter. These will work with your engine and were "in stock" on June 23.
These use bolts:
http://ecsvr.com/abm/shopexd.asp?id=2925 $99.99
http://ecsvr.com/abm/shopexd.asp?id=40 $109.99
These use bands:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXCAS2&P=0 $69.99
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXPY56&P=0 $109.98
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXK971&P=0 $109.98
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=HAN2055 $79.99

Save your money and use the K&B. IF you decide it's not powerful enough you can always swap it out for a 46

Keep the Saito new until you're ready to fly the Pulse.

bigedmustafa

My Feedback: (2)

I guess you missed post #3, Dr1Driver... [X(]

Dr1Driver

Wall, bust ma britches! I guess I did. My PROFOUND apologies. You still ain't the Post Police, though.

I'm outta this one.

mikekosatka

My Feedback: (7)

If you secure a wing properly in the back of your truck ( bungee cords, use tie-downs , stake pockets, etc there is no reason a wing can't stick out over the tailgate, or even lay the tailgate down. Just make sure your entire load is SECURE.
My point is wings can handle 60 mile a hour wind if secured.
The thing I like about 60 size planes is that most people grow to larger sizes, and 40 size stuff tends to collect dust and take up room. Ask at any club and there will be good cp 40 size motors for sale. I have 2 Evolution .46 , a YS pumped 46, a OS 46, and a Saito 65 that are good little motors, but I moved past them pretty quickly. (I will use the Saito in a 40 sized Piper I am rebuilding because the exhaust sounds appropriate.
Having said all that, I would make 2 suggestions... ALPHA 60 RTF if funds aren't a huge factor, or ant high wing 40 and use the motor you have. RTF ( readt to fly) already have servos, motor, etc so no hassles and Combo deals save money.
A 6 channel radio is the LEAST I would use... 72mhz are easy to find cheaply, again ask at a club. I just bought a very nice (like new) Futaba 9C for $100 with 3 receivers. ou can't go wrong with a spread spectrum (2.4) either, and their prices are falling, too.
Have fun and post any questions here at RCU... also let us know how it goes.

mikekosatka

My Feedback: (7)

BigEd,
Sometimes people don't know what questions to ask, so filling in a little around the edges of the topic is not a bad thing.
No flame intended
I'm kinda surprized that nobody has posted a "Just search RCU, it's been covered" comment, but the friendlyness of this community is one of the things I like best.

TimBle

Beginners crash. Crashes break airframes and damage motors. So are spares available for K&B .40 size 2strokes?

Since money does not appear to be a concern a new motor will not only provide some experience on running in but also there will be many people familiar with a newer design so troubleshooting will be quicker since issues are mostly known and the fixes readily available. Anyone with experience on a K&B around here?? Another thing, cheap motors from 25 years ago were un reliable. Today cheap engines run just as well as more expensive ones. An unreliale engine is the worst thing for a beginner. You don;t want to be flipping props over while everyone else is flying...

So again, I will recommend GMS 2000, ASP.XX .XX, Evolution XXNX, or Magnum XLS.XX for a first glow motor since these are cost effective, popular and just as reliable as Thunder Tiger, or O.S. Theres little differnce between Thunder Tiger and ASP or Magnum anyway except some folk have become brand *****s. This is for a trainer, K.I.S.S, K.I.C.S.

I've seen plenty people start out in the hobby with the attitude money is no problem but after they total their 2nd trainer they decide its too expensive.

So if Blacktails is going to buy a plane i will again advise a .60 (chinese engine) size high wing trainer with rubber bands wing attachment and tricycle gear. That is my recommendation (which is in my first post ....)


another point on more pricey engines; price is not a guarantee of quality nor reliability. I see people having trouble with O.S. , Thunder tiger, Super Tigre, MVVS, MDS, Enya, Irvine and YS all the time while I seldom see beginners with cheap modern chinese engines having issues. Why? I don't know but thats what I observe.

Expensive does not equal enjoyment.

carrellh

Whether money is an issue or not: Why should he buy an engine when he already has one?

It really does not matter if spare parts are available for the old K&B.
I'd use it until it breaks or wears out. Then I'd contact http://www.kbmfg.com and ask about parts. If it made sense, I'd rebuild or repair. If not, I'd buy a new engine at that time.

blacktails

My Feedback: (1)

Well, after reading all of the advice and doing lots of further research, I've pretty much decided to get a Sig LT-40 ARF, and then power it with a TT Pro 46. I still need to find the best deal on the LT-40, but I can get the TT Pro 46 w/muffler for $75 shipped. Hopefully this combo will work well together for me while I'm learning, and later when it's time to for me to swtch to the Pulse XT with the Saito, I can maybe get my grandson into the RC hobby using the LT-40 & TT. Thanks for all of the input. I'm sure I'll have more questions as things progress.

Charlie P.

I highly recommend the TT Pro-46 Engine. I have one that is my most flown engine and is still a great performer after 10 years. It would be a good engine for the LT-40. A little more than it really needs but on occasion a little excess power is handy. ;-)

OzMo

My Feedback: (3)

Lots of good advice and some fun good natured bickering too.

My 2 cents say go for a cheap trainer use the 40 on it.

Tip, if you are transporting planes in an open pick up do keep some trash bags handy for those pesky pop up showers. Wet radio gear is no fun. Warped planes are no better .
Warped flyers however are a lot of fun

TimBle

Good choice. the TT 46 can transfer to anopther plane also but I am beginning to believe that a high wing trainer is one plane you never get rid of unless you total one.

Asked around about the K&B and couldnot find anyone who had something good to say about it, well one club member suggested that its good sinker for dragging bait down to bottom feeders