Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

Haven't checked in in a while...I've soloed my Sr. Falcon & flying almost every weekend. I actually bought a second plane already...chronologically, at least...my local HobbyTown had an 81" Miles Sparrowhawk marked @ 1/2 off, and I'm a sucker for vintage looks (i.e., Sr. Falcon).

But although the Sparrowhawk looks to me like a basic low-wing plane, I've been told that it flies more like a warbird & wouldn't make a great low-wing trainer. No biggie, I'll get to it whenever. But now I'm thinking about what WOULD make for a good trainer, but in the same vein as my Falcon is/was; something that might be a LITTLE more challenging than a basic trainer, but would make for a great plane I'll fly for a long time. Once again, I want an ARF, not a kit.

I seem to be drawn to [link=http://www.trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/pattern1.htm]60s-70s vintage 'pattern' planes[/link], probby because that's what I was seeing when I was growing up, but also because I just like the look. They sure LOOK like they'd make for good low-wing trainers, but I thought I'd ask. And maybe different ones are better/worse than others. I'm talking low wing ones ...I guess I technically have a pattern plane in my Falcon (but was the Sr. 'legal'?).

I like:

[link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0001P?I=LXZT80&P=8]Kaos[/link] but I'd like to get something more .50-60 size (if not bigger).
[link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXAYNV&P=ML]Dirty Birdy[/link] Maybe my fave, but I've been told it might be a bit 'hot' for a 2nd plane (then again, I've learned about this thing called a 'throttle'....)
[link=http://www.v-eastonline.com/products/WP-KWIK-FLY-MK3-.html]Kwik Fly Mk3[/link] pretty nice, a bit pricey, but not too common, which I like

Any other ARF pattern-ers out there (the bigger the better)? Also, it's not pattern, but I really like Space Walkers, and [link=http://www.espritmodel.com/spacewalker-50-arf.aspx]Kyosho has one coming out[/link] out that they claim IS good as a 2nd plane (maybe a bit different than the Seagull ones). Is tricycle gear really important here? I mean, you gotta learn how to fly tail-draggers SOMETIME, don't you?

OH, don't worry, the Sig four-star (60 and 120) and Super Sportster/Giant Super Sportster are also on my radar; I KNOW they'll come up as recommendations, and I do like them...but the Four-Star ARFs look to be impossible to find now.

Thanks for your input!

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

If you want a awesome 2nd plane, get a Pulse xt 40...That is one fun sporty plane!!And to be honest, it looks down right sexy!!
http://www.horizonhobby.com/products/aux-HAN4100

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

Vintage pattern planes are fast flying planes as compared to current pattern planes. Rules today require maneuvers to be completed inside a box where as the vintage rules had no box - hot in hot out.

Control surfaces are much smaller than what are popular today. Result? Much less "authority" of the control surfaces. You better have your "A" game (or at least "B") when you are flying it. I had a Killer Chaos (60 size) and was doing a large loop. As I was finishing the final 1/4 of the loop a big gust of wind hit it head on. There was not enough elevator authority to pull it out before it thumped mother earth.

Guess I'm saying "no, not a good 2nd plane".

4Stars are easy flying low wing trainers. Pulse XT (60 or bigger) are very nice as well.

Now, if you were to build a kit ...

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

Hmmmmm....I always grouped the Pulse with the Sbachs, Yaks & the other std. acrobats, but [link=http://masportaviator.com/2009/07/02/pulse-xt-40-arf/]clearly I've been wrong[/link]! And they make bigger versions too, which I like!

Thanks...that's definitely high on the list now, particularly as it comes in 60 and 120 sizes. Odd, though, that the 60 version is $260 and the 125 version is only $40 more. It's almost like they're FORCING me to go with the bigger one :)

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

I flew the original Birdi Kaos and last summer I built the Blue Jay {Bridi} Dirty Birdy to replace it after almost 20 years of service. If anythjing the DB flew better then the Kaos. Second weekend out I had my very first mid air with my nice new DB! I haven't gotten to fly the new ARF DB to compare the kit built to the ARF. I agree with Seamus, the old pattern planes do fly faster then maybe a second plane should. I disagree about the controls being too small. Both of my Bridi's could loop tight enough to kiss there own butts and could roll so fast they looked like they were attached to a drill. Be that as it may. Second plane??Depends on how well you can fly. My second plane was the Up-Roar and my nephew went to the Kaos. The old pattern planes can be slowed down to a crawl for landing but they will never fly as easy as the Pulse.
Do you have anyone at your club that will set up a buddy box for you on there old school pattern plane?? I had my Kaos set up for one and I have my Hots set up now for a buddy box. My Hots has some wild control throws set up in it and it is a 60 size with a YS 1.10 in it. I let a lot of people fly it on the box just to give them an idea of what it is like. If you can fly it then you can fly anything. On the box you can never hurt it either. My 5 yeard old grand son flew it. He didn't scare me but my son did, he does things without telling me first.
Ask around, it isn't hard to set up on the box. See for yourself.;)

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

OK GB, next Bridi build - I'm coming to YOUR house and you can show me how to "git 'er right"! ;)

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

G'day

Yes, the Pulse 40 is good but the Pulse 60 is better still.

And then the Goldberg Tiger is good too and so are the clones of it - the Kyosho Calmato (40 and 60) and the Phoenix Tiger (40 and 60).

I have the small brother of the Pulse - the XL25e and it flies well. I also have all the Four Stars from 40 to 120. The 60 gets the most flying powered by a Saito 100. It is my favourite low wing plane. Mine was built from a kit. An easy build and a great place to start building.

Size does matter.

Cheers

Mike in Oz

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

This is RC Ken's list of good 1st and 2nd planes.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4537845/tm.htm

I agree a vintage pattern would be too fast. Probably good as a third plane.
I'm sure a Tiger, Pulse, Escapade or 4star would be plenty fast with a good 46. My 4star zips along and slows down great to land. The Pulse and Escapade seem to be similar but more modern versions of the Tiger and 4star.

There are definitely many other options, but these planes have proven themselves.
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RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

I know where you can get a 4*40 ARF, they may still have a red and yellow one, those dont seem to be going anywhere.  Considering getting the yellow one to put my Magnum 52 on. Depends on my next flight of the T-34. If I am not impressed with it, it will go back to electric and the glow will go onto something else.   I have the 4*120 and it is a blast to fly. I had a dog fight with my friend and his P-39, which is half the size of the 120 and I was turning inside of him.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

Thanks again, all.

I guess (for now), of the ones discussed here, I'd have the Pulse at the top (60 or 125), then the Four-Star 60 (if it ever exists again), then the Phoenix 60 (thanks for that tip!).

But what about the Super Sportster? Does that fit into this group? Seems like is should, or is there something that makes it harder to fly than the others?

BTW, if anyone is longing for a Falcon (or a clone) like I was, take a look at [link=http://www.v-eastonline.com/products/WP-CARAVELLE-.html]Graupner's Caravelle[/link]. Pricey, sure, but that cowling & other touches make it look a lot more slick than the only other clone...the GP Easy Sport... and/or, dare I say...the Falcon itself. And size-wise, it's really more of a Sr. Falcon, which makes the price much more normal.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

If you like the old Pattern airplanes, there are many that are excellent flying machines for fun and sport. Personally I flew several like the New Orleaner, the Super Kaos (more streamlined version of the original Kaos) and several others including the Mach 1. All were excellent fliers but the Super Kaos was my favorite. It was my second low-wing pattern ship. Phoenix 6 was also very nice.. There were so many back in the '70s that I can't remember them all.
Hiertenberger (sp?) .61 and Super Tigre Blue Head .61 were the engines of the day. IMO they still are. Powerful, super reliable, and so easy to use.

However if you have access to the Bridi (original) Super Kaos, you will have a very smooth flying machine.

Current Pattern planes are a whole 'nother ball game.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

My second plane was a Goldberg Tiger 60. My instructor and his son were, still are, very much involved in Pattern. His son Dave, in fact, is right up there with the top 10 pattern pilots in thi country. Both told me the same thing. The Tiger or any aircraft like it, properly set up, will do any - ANY of the pattern maneuvers for the Sportsman and Intermediate category.

I currently fly a Skylark 70 with an OS .75 AX. This plane is very graceful, and flys like it's on rails, yet is very forgiving. Again, once this was set up properly, this plane can and will do any of the maneuvers, and, like the Tiger 60, is an excellent second plane. It's pretty large so it's visible. I like the lines of this plane, and it looks great in the air.

I started pattern about, oh,m six months after I solo'ed, nothing serious, but just learning the discipline necessary to fly pattern properly. The beginning routines are not complex, but challenging for a beginner to learn and to learn to do properly. I believe it makes a better pilot.

I would consider both the Skylark and Tiger as really great choices for second planes, especially if the pilot wants to learn to fly pattern.

CGr.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

Great Planes " Little Toni ", with a Saito 91 is my suggestion. :D You won't go wrong. ;)

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

The Super Sportster would serve well as a second plane. So much of the decision though depends on the pilot. If your reflexes and eyesight are good enough that a trainer feels annoyingly slow, then one of the speedier planes like a Kaos will probably work out fine for you. If not, an intermediate "sport plane" is a better choice. BTW, the major difference between a sport plane like the Goldberg Tiger or Sig 4 Star vs. a classic pattern plane like the Kaos is the slow speed handling. A sport plane generally has a more stall resistant airfoil and straighter wing to make the stall characteristics more forgiving. An aerobat has some of that dialed back so that snap rolls and spins are easy to do and also are optimized aerodynamically for higher speeds overall. The line between the two is not all that sharp though, as the exact speeds and attitudes at which stalls happen is different for each plane. The most forgiving plane you can get is an Ugly Stick (assuming proper setup and light weight components) with the low wing sport models being a step closer to aerobats, while among the aerobats the Kaos is probably the most forgiving (stall resistant) with the sensitivity to piloting technique going up from there.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

A typical pattern airplane fromthe 60's forwardwould not makea good 2nd airplane, but there are what I'll call pattern-like or pattern capable airplanes that would work nicely. Probably the best one that comes to mind is the Carl Golberg Models Tiger 2. It's a kit, but don't let that put you off. It builds easily, and is a docile, yet aerobatics capable model. Easy to afford too.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

Speed is relative that is why you have a throttle. Most if not all pattern airframes are designed to be stable in all three axis. I purchased a used "Vector" and in the beginning I was behind the plane in control inputs but eventually I made my way to the cockpit. Vintage pattern plane designs fly within a wide speed envelope and make you a better pilot in the long run.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

flycatch - no truer words - but, is it a good 2nd plane?

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

Like Dick, my instrucor was a pattern pilot so I had pattern or presision drilled into me. Club events only though. The old class C planes are what I flew and I never thought I would be without a Kaos but all things must pass.
Jim, I still have all the templates, instructions and plans for the Dirty Birdy. {Someplace??} As long as Blue jay is cutting the kit I think the kit is the way to go. If you need them you know wherre to come.
I still use my Daddy Rabbit as my high wind plane. Don't you just love the old names they came up with back then? My 2 meter is waiting for repairs so as good as I am at repairing planes it may be waiting forever!.
For grins the OP may also like to buy the little 40 size Kaos ARF sold by tower. I have had 4 different sizes of the Kaos and they all fly the same. The smaller size just has a faster roll rate. The little 40 ARF is also a trike gear so it doesn't get any easier to handle on the ground then that. My Daddy Rabbit is a trike and when the wind comes up it is even easy to handle when on the ground. My one and only trike geared plane other then a trainer. I may make my next 60 size class C a trike?? Probably not but it is a thought.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

I guess (for now), of the ones discussed here, I'd have the Pulse at the top (60 or 125), then the Four-Star 60 (if it ever exists again), then the Phoenix 60 (thanks for that tip!).

The Four-Star 60 kit seems to be available............doesn't take that long to build.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

I have a Yak54 as a 2nd plane, the key is reducing the throws to next to nothing (mine are at only 30% of maximum) and using expo with some thought. Being as they have a really low weight per sq inch, they really do tame down nicely and turn into a kitty kat to fly that you just point and fly - they/it tracks fantastically.
The beauty is that I can increase the responsiveness as I grow with that plane, as currently she cruses at only 45% throttle, so I have everything in reserve should/when I feel I need it down the line.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

My last building student was in his 70s. I use the 4* 60 as the teaching aid. Years ago I used the Super Sportster 60 but someone told me about the 4* so I changed over to it. My 70 year old student had his 4 star finished and out the door in 6 days. These were full 6 hour days though. His plane was built fully stock too. My 12 year old student took all one summer. He tended to keep finding other things to be doing. His also got several minor mods.
You asked about the Super Sportster. The kit is a bit harder then the 4* and the plane isn't a lot harder to fly but it is a bunch better as a stunt trainer then the 4*. That and every body and there uncle doesn't have one.;)
The Pulse 60 is a lot like the 4* but a bit more sporty to fly and it is a nice ARF with some good features. I think you would really like it.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

I would be compelled to ask "what was your first plane" before giving advise on what would be a good 2nd plane.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

The Pulse flies very well with no bad habits. But it very lightly constructed, so it will be short lived if you don't land on the wheels on the runway. Of course the same could be said about most of the ARF's built from lite-ply.

The Sportster flys well too, though it has a bit heavier feel (higher wing loading). I've always thought of the Sportster as a overweight clone of some of the old Andrews designs, like the Trainermaster or Sportmaster. They were excellent designs from the mid-60's that had great aerodynamics and a rugged balsa construction that could survive incredible abuse. Radios were not so reliable back then and a lot heavier, so tough light airframes were a good thing.

Now for the good thing. The Pulse flies almost as good as the Andrews designs do with modern light radios.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

"what was your first plane"

Excellent question.

Pattern ships are generally enclosed engine and will go where you point them. The first makes tuning a bit trickier and the second is great if you know what you're doing. Some have tapered wings that are trickie at low speed (specifically landing).

But, like many desciptives in this hobby "pattern" covers a great deal of territory. The pattern models of 25 years ago are todays classic sport models.

RE: Are Pattern Planes Good 2nd Planes?
 

Irecently won a pattern contest sportsman class with a pulse 60. The sportsman class is designed to be flown as an introduction to others in how to fly pattern without the need to fly a pattern airplane. That being said I also have a wind 50e which is a pattern aircraft. It could make a second airframe with special emphasis placed on being very profecient on landing. The lighter electrics are loaded very light and can make a very well behaved airplane but if you dorka landing on it you could really tear the gear out as it is not as robust. Now to answer the question of if I had a pattern plane why fly the pulse well I have flown the pulse over 100 times this year and the wind only 20. That is why. The long and short is if you can land consistantly easy with varying wind conditions then a newer pattern ship is doable. Be aware of it not being as rugged as other airframes might be.