RE: Engine trouble
 

Question: once the line is primed, the fuel actually starts to backdraw into the tank. If I don't hurry, it drains all the way out. Is this a positioning problem with the tank relative to the engine? Specifically, is my tank too low?

RE: Engine trouble
 

Not necessarily, but if you can raise it a bit it might help keep your prime.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Yes, and quite possibly the needle valve is open way too much. Where is the needle valve (turns)? 2- 2 1/2?

RE: Engine trouble
 

Ok thanks. That did it (I raised the tank 1 inch; the needle is open two turns). Now, unfortunately, my battery is out of juice. How long should a new 12v 7A bat last powering a starter? I charged it for 14 hours last night, and got maybe 10 minutes of use with the starter. Is that typical?

RE: Engine trouble
 

Just a note about using an electric starter (which I personally always use, mostly because I'm lazy).

You really want to prime the engine. I see a lot of guys who just grind on the starter until fuel goes up the line and eventually in to the engine and eventually the engine starts. This is wearing the piston-liner fit more than necessary, as well as spinning lots of the engine parts around with out fuel in there for lubrication.

So, always prime at least a little.

I've also found that some engines like a sloppy, dripping primes. My Magnum .28's and .25 are like this. I set full throttle, glow off, cover carb, flip until fuel reaches carb, then flip 5 more times. I can feel the fuel on my finger, and some often drips out of the side-mounted engines's carb. But when I attach the lighter then give a quick blip with the starter, they fire right up.

My OS's, on the other hand, prefer a much leaner prime, just get the fuel up the carb, then 1 more turn, that's it. Anything more and it will be flooded.

I don't know why this difference exists, but I've put too many hours on these engines, and flown too many rounds of combat with them to not know it's true. (in combat, you get 90 seconds to start the engine and launch, after which you loose points, so winning and loosing can be decided by your engine starting right up, or not).

Anyway, my point, get to know your engine. Try differnet primes and see what it likes, then do that.

Oh, on all my engines, I don't worry about what happens to the fuel in the line after the prime. Once the fuel is in the engine, that is what fires off. The stuff in the line can go all the way to the tank, it doesn't matter. And once the engien fires, it usually turns enough to draw the fuel up from the tank before the engine stops.

RE: Engine trouble
 

No, a fully charged 12v 7a battery should last for weeks of normal use...Rog

RE: Engine trouble
 

I have a couple things to say here.

The first is related to a flooded engine. If you can not turn it over by had (NO GLOW PDRIVER) it is probably flooded. Simply remove the glow plug and spin the motor with your starter (fuel will come out of the hole, watch your eyes) or turn the plane over so that the fuel can drain out of the glow plug hole. Put the glow plug back in and it should start. You will puke out a lot of fuel from the muffler too. If you try to start a flooded engine you run a great risk of bending the connecting rod, called a hydro lock, bad news there.

I am really suprised by Piper Chuck though. It sounds that he is trying to defend a less safe method of starting an engine. If I were a betting man I would say that Chuck, considering he indicated that he has been doing this a long time, has got a finger or thumb smacked by a prop during start up. Glow engines sometimes back fire and or partially fire during start up and HICCUP. No man is faster than a prop going opposit the way of the finger flipping it.

Now if by some luck he has not got a finger smacked he certainally knows people that have. The main reported injuries he is referring to are the result of claims filed due to the severity of an injury from a prop strike! No one gives specific details to report regarding the black and blue nails and brused knuckles. I would bet that Chuck stands in fornt of his plane and reaches arround the prop while engine is running to do adjustments and or removing glow driver. How hard is it to realize that a $50.00 investment in a starter could reduce the odds of a very costly emergency room visit (not to say the least loosing a finger of having major ligiment/tendon damage). Is is just simple insurance. We are past the days of bravado, we should all be concerned foremost about our personal safety.

We are in a time that affords us technology like cordless starters and glow drivers, or remote glow drivers. We have bystanders (AMA regulation to have a 2nd person with you when you fly if no one else arround) to help. Chicken sticks, should have been called smart sticks, are a great tool if you just can't get a starter. It has nothing to do with being lazy.

I am glad you gat a starter and I am sure you will find this much more enjoyable.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Nope, haven't had a finger smacked. I've not said once during this thread whether I start by "finger flipping it", or with a chicken stick. It's been quite amusing to see those in the electric starter camp jump to conclusions about what I do in their attempts to use safety to justify their personal preference.

I'll humor you on this one for a second. Tell me how a right handed person gets a "black and blue nail" or "bruised knuckle" if the prop is "going opposit the way of the finger flipping it"? Think about it for a second, it can't happen. Just as it can't happen to someone using a chicken stick.
Sigh, I didn't think you'd sink to tactics such as ad hominem to attempt to prove your false claim that starters are inherently safer than hand starting. You shouldn't bet, you would have lost twice in this one post. High speed engine adjustments are always made while I am behind the engine. Tach readings are also taken from behind the spinning prop. Idle mixture adjustments are made with the engine NOT running because the risk of having the screw driver slip and hit the prop is too high. Glow connection is only removed from the plane while I have a firm grip on the plane because the metal to metal connection sometimes causes radio jitter, which could cause a short blip in the throttle. But anyway, your comments about safety techniques AFTER starting have NOTHING to do with whether hand starting or electric starters are safer.

I hand start my engines because I find it easier, because I don't want the extra weight of an electric starter in my flight box, because I personally don't like the look of the rubber ring on the spinner, and because a starter offers no safety advantage over proper hand starting technique. This is my PREFERENCE. If you prefer to use a starter, that's fine.

RE: Engine trouble
 

One of the techniques CL guys use, especially with inverted engines, is to attach the igniter and then, with the venturi plugged, and a firm grip on the prop, turn the prop several times until a "bump" is felt. Then back off and flip the prop with the chicken stick (NEVER by hand, especially with APC props). The engine should start on the first or second flip. With RC, you would prime at WOT, and then go back to 1/3 or 1/4 throttle to start. Also, I've had good results using Fox RC Long w/Idle Bar plugs.
Glen

RE: Engine trouble
 

yay......

RE: Engine trouble
 

I never said anything about adjusting a low needle while engine is running. I commend you for doing any adjustments from behind, as 90% of the people out there still reach arround (many of them of the long time flyer guys).

There is just no way you can denounce the increased safety from using a starter. It turns the engine the proper direction and when it starts the engine continues to turn the proper direction. I have seen, and had, engines that will burb back and run the wrong way when hand starting.

As far as the RING that you see on some spinners, well I use a silicone cone and that eleminates the problem. The only thing I have had happen is getting a melt line on a plastic spinner when the engine didn't turn all the way over. Big engine and it should have had a spinner rated for a starter any way.

I am sorry if this seems like a personal attack. That was not my intention. I ( and other people in the forum)just did not like the way some of what you were saying regarding hand starting. You were not specific regarding your starting habits. This is a forum (question) asked by a new pilot who may not know about chicken sticks and or seen the guys that use just their hand.

It still seems that you have hte opinion that and electric starter is not safer! I just don't see how that is possible???? Any thing to do to get your hands and fingers away from the prop, and starts the engine faster, without repeated need to flip the prop.

If you have a great engine and never have a glow plug go bad and never have a low battery in your driver along with nice 70* weather to fly in then I guess chicken sticking an engine would work every time with just a couple flips. Guess that would be in the perfect world where we never crash either.

RE: Engine trouble
 

AMEN AND AMEN.....

RE: Engine trouble
 

Well I'm not sure if this makes sense but here it goes:

I'm that beginner pilot Ryan referrers to. I had never heard of a "chicken stick". The times I've been to an airfield, I've either seen a starter used, or fingers. Not knowing anything, I could only assume both methods were acceptable and "safe". Thats one of the reasons I brought this topic up in the first place.

Chuck seems to be describing a way that might be safe, for an experienced pilot. I have no idea how these engines react or respond under varying conditions. I can't tell you how fast an engine is spinning or if its rich or lean based on sound; basically I know just enough to get myself hurt. Right now, a starter makes perfect sense for me.

Now, after some time, I guarantee I will learn. I will see how my engine responds, how it kicks, how it likes to be started and run. I will learn by experience and watching what an engine is capable of. In other words, over time, it might become just as safe for me to start my engines without a starter. What will change? The methods won't get any safer (starter vs stick) but my skill in using them will.

I get the feeling this is just like most things: the implementation of knowledge is power. An experienced adult lighting a gas stove is "safe", a 4 year old doing so is not. I'm that 4 year old, Chuck is that adult.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Jason, I'm in the middle of a bunch of things at work, so I only have time for a quick message. If you really can't tell whether your engine is lean or rich, I suggest you minimize the amount of time you run it until you find someone with airplane experience who can help you. With all engines, ABC in particular, proper break in is really important. Running the engine too lean, or too rich, can ruin an engine, or at least shorten its lifespan.

For reference, one of my favorite engines, an OS 25 FSR, is also the second engine I ever bought, sometime in the late '70s. It still runs strong even though it's probably had thousands of flights. I attribute this to careful break in and a fanatical avoidance of lean runs. Of course I guess I should also give a little credit to OS for making a really good product back then :D

Unlike 4 year olds, we all have an understanding of risk and consequences. Everyone has been providing you with their opinions. Sometimes people at opposite sides of an issue have trouble seeing that it's possible for BOTH sides to be right. At this point in your R/C career, spending time with local people is the best thing you can do. Reading is valuable, but you will learn much more by being able to see what they do, and so they can help you develop safe practices before you learn any bad habits.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Roger that!

Electric chicken stick for now, then when you learn a bit, and don't want the "inconvenience" of an electric starter, go for the non-electric chicken stick.

Listen to everyone, and learn from everyone, funnel out what you don't need, keep what you do.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Points well taken gentlemen. I am having too much fun with this stuff to quit now. I hope to spend some quality time at the airfield this weekend, meeting and talking with folks.

Thanks for the opinions, and for keeping the disagreements quite civil. I must say, its rather refreshing to have people with different opinions agree to disagree respectfully.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Hey, if any of you guys are still havinhg problems with your NEW ABC engines, try this. Use a heat gun (just like the one you do monokote with ) and heat the head of your engine before starting it. This will cause the cyl to expand slightly and reduce the tight fit at TDC.

Remember to properly break in your ABC engines before flying.

Have fun and keep the wheels pointed in the right direction when landing.