Engine trouble
 

Hello all. So I'm trying to bench test my OS .40LA engine, and having almost no success getting it started. I've followed all the instructions (a few times now) and the best I get out of the thing is a few turns and then it dies. It really seems to be binding up as it nears the top of the compression stroke. I swear its just as the engine starts to kick, the bind brings it to a halt.

What am I doing wrong? I took it by my LHS (where I bought it) and they tried to give it a look; they are car guys and not plane guys. According to them, all looks well.

RE: Engine trouble
 

The tightness at the top of the stroke is normal.
Are you using an electric starter? It will make life a lot easier.
I've broken in a couple O.S. LA and FP's and they all seemed to fire up, run a second or two, then quit, for the first several times. Just fire it up, let it run a second or two 'til it quits, LET IT COOL completely, repeat.
Make sure you've got the mixture screw set right, sounds as if you do if you followed the instruction manual.
Try starting it up wide open for the first few times as well.

RE: Engine trouble
 

You might also try turning the needle valve out an extra half turn. If it's a little too lean it will react that way, and every engine's settings very a little.
Dennis-

RE: Engine trouble
 

If your not using an electric starter, borrow one. This kind of crap is what discourages new guys and they quit. Even the best and most expensive engines sometimes are difficult to start. Using a stupid "chicken stick" or your finger is going to get you nowhere. You could squirt a bit of fuel down the carb to kind of prime it.

I run some of the best engines on the market. If I had to rely on a "chicken stick" instead of an electric starter. I would be flying kites.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Using a starter in this kind of situation is a substitute for learning how to properly start an engine. A starter is absolutely NOT a required piece of equipment for a 40 size engine. For the most part, it's only required for people who either won't learn, or don't want to bother learning, how to prime and start an engine.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Jason, a few things to check. First, make sure you are running with muffler pressure. Also check that the tank is not too low. As has already been suggested, make sure that the high speed needle is at the correct position. Normally, you should not have to change the low speed needle on a new OS, but if you're having trouble, check that too. Remember to count the turns as you close the needle, so you can compare what you tried to the OS recommendations.

Also, check that you are getting good power from your glow starter. I used to use glow starters, but found that they made it much more difficult to hand start. Personally, I think glow starters were invented as a way to sell more electric starters. I've been using a power panel driver for years, and NEVER have trouble getting an engine to fire. If I didn't have boats, I probably would not even own an electric starter.

I'm not so sure about starting with the throttle wide open, that's never worked for me. I always start my engines with the carb at an idle setting. Be sure you get a good prime. To start my engines I open the throttle, put my finger over the carb and flip the prop a few times, BEFORE ATTACHING GLOW POWER. After this I set the throttle to idle, attach the glow power and start it up. It's rare that I need more than 2-3 flips to get it running.

And finally, any chance you can find some airplane, instead of car, people? You're going to have lots of other questions, it's best to find someone to help you soon.

RE: Engine trouble
 

You all have good points. But I have to say to Piper Chuck> Todays ABC engines are so tight at TDC that they are almost impossible to start without the aid of a starter until well broke in. Ringed engines are a total different story. And then when it comes to the LA engine, if I am not mistaken, it is an air bleed carb and not a twin needle. This also makes a new ABC engine hard to start as you can not adjust the bottom end richer if needed.

One thing to get the most life from your ABC engine is to bench run it properly before you fly it. There are some old salts out there that denounce bench running. I think it is critical to the survival of the engine, plane, and pilot frustration(especially if you are new).

Use a good quality fuel and use the smaller propeller in the manufactures range (this will help prevent overheating). Heat cycle your engine for the first several runs. Do not run it sloppy rich or you will never built enough heat to break it in. An ABC engine break in is the opposite of a ringed engine. Anyway get it started, a little on the rich side, and run it for up to 30 seconds (head should be very warm to touch when you shut off the engine or it dies) do this several times. As you go through this process you will find the engine easier to start and will run more reliably.

After several short warming runs, increase throttle and run time a little and do this several times. Continue this until you get about a minute at good throttle, slighty rich, run that is smooth and will transition decent. The more you run it the better it will perform.

After what seems like forever of a wasted time then put the engine on the plane and fly it. By breaking it in you have incresed your odds of a sucessful flight, without a flameout at take off, by a huge factor.

There have been several very good articles written in model airplane news and RCM in the last year that give a very detailed explination of this.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Clearly I've got a learning curve to climb. But, in my opinion, this is what makes something worth it; if it were easy, there would be no challange. Thanks for all the suggestions! If I can, I'd much rather prefer to learn the hand method first, and only then move on to a starter if it seems needed.

My LHS sold me the glow plug starter. I got maybe 15 minutes of "on time" with it today. Now I get to wait 14 hours before I can try and start my engine again. Not good. It really sounds like I should invest in a panel and tote. Any suggestions on which panel and or tote?

RE: Engine trouble
 

Not exactly sure what you mean by "todays ABC engines". ABC engines have always been harder to turn over than ringed engines. I've had no more trouble getting new ABC engines started than any others. Air bleed carbs are a bit more challenging than dual needle carbs, but I've also never needed a starter for those. I guess our experiences are just different and we should just agree to disagree.

I think I'm in the old salt category. I don't denounce bench running, I just don't see it as a requirement. If a person wants to bench run a new engine, by all means, go for it. Over the years I've broken in some of my engines by bench running, and others while flying, or at least on the plane. Haven't found much difference.
Expanding on this for new people who have not heard this before. If you set an ABC engine too rich it will not get hot enough. This means the cylinder liner will not expand enough. The piston will be too tight and you will get excess wear between the piston and cylinder. The result is you might ruin the engine. One recommendation I've heard is that the first time running you should only run it long enough to get the high speed needle set to a slightly rich setting and then shut it down and let it cool.
And there's a really good one floating around in RCU as well.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Bravo Stu-
Shame on you piper chuck!

I'm sure you will agree that there are a lot of scars out there due to "beginners" trying to hand start their engines.

Save the bravado for when you are a "Pro", and then save the excuses for the emergency room nurse when you take a chunk out of yourself starting an engine without an electric flipper!

"Only required for people who can't or won't learn" indeed!
Safety Jason, you need all that blood and body parts for flying.......

RE: Engine trouble
 

You really should THINK a bit more before speaking, or writing. I never said BARE handed, although you somehow jumped to that conclusion. A thick leather glove or a chicken stick will both prevent injury. This discussion is not about "bravado", it's about learning how to properly prime an engine so it starts quickly. This applies to hand starting or using an electric starter.

RE: Engine trouble
 

BTW Jason,

If you can't afford an electric starter, I think I can find a spare one around here I'll send you.

Jetts

RE: Engine trouble
 

:eek:oops, sorry wasn't thinking......you didn't say not to prop bare handed, did you?

RE: Engine trouble
 

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Safety first, electric starter for the newbies!

You can be cut through a glove, and it can cause more problems than help.

Save the bravado for when you are a "pro" Jason!

RE: Engine trouble
 

It took a long time for me to finally get past the (looking for the word ????????) oh yeah, lack of safety thought, and bought a starter about 4 years ago. Before that I was a hand propper, or should I say a thumb smacker, finger cutter (those Master Airscrew and APC props are sharp) tenis elbow try for ever on a really cold morning to get the engine to start guy. Then A friend said "hey try this thing" man what was I thinking. All of my broke in engines will had start easily, but think of this one really important issue here PERSONAL SAFETY.

I have a starter I would give you also, that is if it is an issure of cost.

By the way. If you get a field box with battery and panel so you have power for your starter and the all important CORDED GLOW DRIVER. You can never know when that cordless driver you are using will go t/u and leave you stranded or having to borrow one. Some redundant systems are worth the effort. Or you can go arround like some guys I see with half a dozen battery powered drivers floating in the top of their box and searching for one that might have enough juice to start them.......]


PERSONAL SAFETY. If I remember correctly AMA had a report on prop related injuries at one time.

I can think of a half dozen prop stikes this summer I saw while out at the field.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Yikes! I think your swinging at the wrong guy. I'm a self declared newbie that has no issue realizing I'm out of my league here. I measure all the advice offered (thanks by the way!) and try to make the most educated decision possible, for me.
Thank you both so much for the offer. I do indeed have a starter already.

Safety: this is the deciding factor for me. I do not need to be the guy who learns the hard way on this one. I think my initial reluctance was related to my hatred of being dependent on a device when in theory this is something I should be able to do without it. However, all I need do is consider the potential risks (even if they are small) to make the call that a starter just makes sense here.

Well I'll give it another go today, with my starter for the first time. I'll report back on my success. Thanks again guys!!

RE: Engine trouble
 

It lives!!! I think I was experiencing what is called "hydraulic lock". My first clue was the spray coming out of the carb when the starter turned it over. Also, the starter would simply jam at the top of the compression stroke. It took so much force to move any further I was afraid I would bust the prop.

I removed the engine from the mount and gas tank, and set it on the desk. As I did, it rolled to the side a bit and fuel literally started pouring out of the muffler. After a few minutes of drainage, I remounted and reconnected the engine, primed it correctly (this time!) and voilÃ*! Up she fired. Anyone looking in my garage would have had the shock of their life; its not a pretty site to see a 6'9" 300lb white boy doing the dance of joy and screaming "woohoo!" over and over again.:D

So now comes the art of tuning. It definitely sounds rough, so I'll play with the needle and follow the next part of the instructions. Thanks guys for all the help!!

-J

RE: Engine trouble
 

Congrats on sorting it out. It's all part of the learning process. Note, it's really easy to damage an engine by applying a starter when the cylinder is full of fuel. If it's too tight to turn over by hand, forcing it with a starter is a bad idea.

RE: Engine trouble
 

The studies I have seen found that the prop to finger or hand accidents happened AFTER the engine was started and the person was doing something else, such as tuning the engine, reaching for something, trying to stop the engine, etc.

I think some people are confusing the issue of convenience with the issue of safety. A starter provides convenience, but does little to actually improve safety.

RE: Engine trouble
 

How do you correctly prime an engine? I've been following the book that came with my engine (evo .40) which says to go to full throttle, cover the carb with your thumb and turn the prop 4-6 times until you see fuel in the line and a little in the carb. After doing that, I haven't been able to start it with anything other than an electric starter.

Last night after talking with some of the long-time (don't want to call them old! :) ) flyers at the club meeting, one of them suggested flipping the prop backwards to start. He's had several experiences with these types of 2-stroke engines where a prop-flip backwards starts them right up. The engine backfires and the prop starts spinning the right way.

I have yet to try that, but may need to if I can't get my starter fixed.

RE: Engine trouble
 

PC,
I hope you never see someone cut their hand down to the bone while hand propping. It's not pretty. Yes, and electric starter is convinient, so is electricity, gas powered autos and plumbing....;)

Jason,
Sounds like it's still a little rich if it's rough, turn the needle valve clockwise a couple of clicks then re-try. Still rough after a few seconds, shut it down turn a few clicks closed and re-try, shouldn't take too many tries.

RE: Engine trouble
 

Since we are talking about saftey here....never ever start anything at full throttle. Prime at full throttle with the Glow ignitor OFF

Sharp Prop + Full throttle = People Blender

RE: Engine trouble
 

What about the control line guys?[8D]

RE: Engine trouble
 

Rubber duck, that's a technique that is used by some to bump it against the compression and it sort of backfires the wrong way, and starts.

Use an electric starter.