Flight Write up with pics
 

Well, I dont think it was logn enough to call a flight, but I had a good day after the initial frustrations.

I went out today to fly. I got a new antenna wire and when we got to the field and did a range check everything was fine. It was a bit breezy today which caused the crash. On my first take off write at the point when the wheels are weightless but still on the ground the gust came. It was a crosswind, so i thought i could do fine and just correct the plane. This was alot stronger than i thought. It was a crosswind at first, then it changed directions towards the wing right after about 10 feet in the air. Yep, I went vertical and tip stalled. Second time i Have done this, but this time it was the wind that did it. I was talking to my dad and we decided the wind caused it.

Anyways so the plane was ok.., but this would be the second time repairing and I really don't want to repair this thing again because I was just about to buy a new plane anyways.

So, That leaves me with this question. I have soloed and flown fine but have had some bad luck 2 times. Today was not my fault the other time was my fault. Should i go ahead and get the 4*? Or something else. If it's the 4*, i will be on a box for a while till i get the hang of it.

Ok after i got home i needed a work table for the new kit, so i biult one. It works great and i have everything close to me (Tools, Fridgerator, Fan.) It's a great table and i like it alot.

Here are some pics

Oh yeah, one pic is of this jet that kept buzzing the field while it was doing touch n goes about 4 miles away at the airport. It had 2 engines. Can anyone identify it.

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The jet looks like a T-5 Talon with NASA markings.

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GrnBrt, That could be very true. Nasa is big here

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I think you could either do the 4 star or another trainer--either way, I don't know if you're ready to be considered "solo" yet or not. Both times of "bad luck" were your first two times out without an instructor, weren't they? You can blame it on the wind, and I've seen wind knock good pilots out of the air, but you really still have a lot to learn about how to handle windy situations. more experience, and you might have not been "blown" down today. I say you can get the 4 star because it's really a low wing trainer anyway, so you can probably handle it IF (and it's a big IF) you do indeed get on a buddy box for some more lessons. And, make sure you get some lessons in the wind as well. You will not master all flight conditions before you officially "solo," that is why a lot of second planes get crashed. But, you should learn to deal with as many as possible so that this hobby doesn't get any more expensive than it has to!

I can handle cross winds much better than head on, gusty winds (when landing). Gusty headwinds (while landing) get me because I get on a glide slope, and get used to the wind, and about 5 or 10 feet off the deck the wind will lay (it never fails), and my wing will loose lift. Learn a couple of things about wind--crosswinds are conquered by the rudder, and with gusty headwinds, just keep the nose down while landing for as long as possible--this keeps the airspeed up without relying upon the incoming wind. Then, flair at the last second. constant head winds are much easier, and are no problem at all, because they allow your landing approach to be predictable. Taking off in any kind of headwind isn't really a problem for me--just maintain your power, and try to stay on a nice, low angle of climb and you should be fine. If you try to climb too fast, then yes, your wing will balloon, and eventually stall. If this happens too close to the ground, it's dirt nap time. Try to keep your leading edge down as much as possible, while still climbing out. This forces as much of the headwind over the top of your wing, instead of under your wing. When all of that wind hits the underside of your wing, it will cause the aforementioned problem.

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Newb,
The way you talk it sounds like you are going to quit flying your trainer when your order of the 4* arrives from Tower. I'm going to make a good safe guess, it's probably going to be 2-4 months before you have your 4* ready to fly. Trust me, it's not going to be a week, especially since you haven't built before. Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. You get the 4 * in and start building. In the mean time, you fly your trainer until you fly to color off of the covering. From what you have described so far you are no where near ready for the 4*. Yes you may have soloed, but now you need practice. And then after that you need practice. And it wouldn't hurt to throw in some extra practice on top of that. See where I'm going?

I've said in other threads, practice on your trainer until you can fly around your field completely inverted. Please get this experience in before you try to move onto the 4*.

Now with that past us, your work area looks great. Make sure you building surface is flat before you start, you definitely don't want to build a warp into your wings or fuselage.

Hang in there, you're doing great.

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2slow, this wasn't the first wihout instructor. Last week i went without him and did PERFECT loops inverted flight, I had it. I have talked to him and he said he would be glad to tkae me on a box with the 4*. But this could partly be my fault, but i don't believe it was. Just an unexpected wind. I think It was one of those things where if there was no wind, i could have pulled out quite easily, but the wind blowing towards my plane made it harder to pull out.

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That jet is a T-38 Talon and is probably DOD since you act like you haven't seen one before.

Start working on the 4* dude. Trainers are more difficult to fly in windy conditions anyway (due to excessive dihedral). The rudder is un-natural even for full size pilots, so you need to mentally calibrate yourself to flying with crosswinds each time you go up, or land. I forget how to use the rudder on landing and takeoff even with much experience, especially when tired.

Good job with the effort though and keep truckin!

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Thanks for the advice.

Ken, I really don't feel like rebiulding my trainer. I will probably buddy up with my instructor for a while, and might even borrow real flight for my time I will be biulding, but I just really don't want to rebiuld everything on that trainer. Maybe a spad?

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Newb,
I'd Rebuild the trainer while your waiting for your 4* to come in.. Then fly the trainer during the day and build the 4* at night and when your not flying your trainer. It'll keep your thumbs from completely rusting while the 4* is built:>

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Take your time and stick it back together. You will find you learn much from the process. You could take the opportunity to change it to a taildragger, change some colors on the skin, any number of small things. It would also give you a second "no care" plane to fly. You've already busted it up, and stuck it back together. You can take it out on "iffy" days, where you wouldn't want to fly something nicer...... Imagine the possibilities......

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Newb,
I've got to agree with the last 2 posts. You really need to put the trainer back together and get some more airtime on it.

While the 4* is a good second plane and a great low wing trainer, it's not good for stepping into so quickly. Yes, you can more directly to the 4* with the help of your instructor, but you're going to be in for a surprise. That "unexpected gust of wind" that wrecked your trainer is going to be even harder to handle in the 4*.

Everybody that flys airplanes goes through the same thing. When experienced pilots take off in that situation we react from "instincts", and handle the situation. We kept practicing until we didn't have to think about what we were doing anymore, we handled things like that without thinking. That is called instincts. Your trainer is designed to be forgiving in situations like you encountered today so that you can practice and develop your instincts, the 4* is going to be a little less forgiving than your trainer, and so on down the line with your 3rd, 4th, etc ... planes. If you don't develop those instincts now you're going to be in more trouble on the 4*.

I hope you don't think that I'm lecturing you because that isn't what I'm trying to do. All of us just want to see you succeed in this hobby, that's why we are advising you the way we are. When we see you trying to rush things we know from experience what can happen. We're only trying to help.

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How many actual flights (solo or on the box) did you actually have on the trainer? From reading your past posts it dosen't seem like you have a ton of flights on the bird... stick it back together and fly the wings off the thing... take your time working on the 4*...

Casey

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I guess i could put it back together and fly it. It will give me something to do this week. Would it be horrible bad if i didn't use landing gear and just belly landed it? I would have a lot more fun this way at first, and then later put some gear on it. The thing is to put on the gear again, i would have to take out the glued in servo tray which i wouyld break in the process, so i think i will resheet the bottom of the plane and then re do the wing. Any suggestions would be nice

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I am also thinking of biulding a Debonair Spad. It would be much easier.

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I wouldn't do that, because that would necessitate you hand launching it. You'd not gain some valuable experience of ground handeling this way. Also, I don't know if your engine is capable of hand launching that plane. Which engine is it again?

RE: Flight Write up with pics
 

Newb,
Plus, you would lose the experience of landing which is something else that needs to be practiced.

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mewb,

the work area looks pretty good.

Now as far as the "wind" causing it then that tells me you where telling the plane to fly before it had enough airspeed to compensate for the wind. This is do to a lack of experience and something that you must be comfortable doing in the 4*. Wih a low wing you do not have the room under the wings to get into trouble with and not be able to recover more quickly than you already are.

A suggestion for wind on take off is always keep the plane on the ground longer than you usually do to make sure you have enough speed and for landing always keep a little more power on until just before the main gear touches down.

You are doing fine but you relly should get a little more practice, say at least 20 - 50 flights more on the trainer. You'll be glad you did

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Newb: It's a bummer for sure having to rebuild again, but you don't want to quit flying all together while putting together a kit. Finding time to build a kit it difficult. My brother put together a tough kit in a week's time, and he worked on it from 6am to 9pm every day that week. Yep, he had LOTS of hours in on it. So, if you break that down to after work and weekends (and don't forget to make family time), you're looking at weeks to months to build a kit. You want to be grounded that entire time? I'm gonna gues no. So rebuild the trainer first, then start the kit. It'll give you some insight experience you will need to build the kit and your stick fingers won't get rusty either! :)

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Put the trainer back togeather. It will give you more experience building and in return your 4* will end up being a better plane . And take the advise these people are giving you, don't rush into the next phase, ENJOY this one to the fullest. Practice, practice practice!!!!
By the way, WHY in the world did you glue a servo in?????

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I think he said his glued in servo tray...Those are easy to fabricate--just make you a new one. Newb--how bout some pics of the wreckage....Just to see how bad it really is...

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I agree with what 2slow2matter said and with what others have said. I have been signed off to solo last July and I still don't fly alone. I don't feel like I am experienced enough to handle every situation on my own. I bought a Ultra Stick .60 a while back and some other airplane I can't remember right now and I still fly with a instructor on the Stick and my instructor is giving me pointers when I fly my Avistar. He doesn't really fly the airplane, just by my side advising me what to do.

Moral of the story: Even though your soloed, fly with a instructor until you feel you can handle every possible thing that can happen (this is my opinion, other may say different) I still don't fly w/o an instructor because I don't feel comfortable. The one day I flew w/o one, I got too nervous and crashed. [:o]

I am not telling you to not buy the Four Star. I bought a Ultra Stick and I can fly it good. But we hand the Tx back and fourth.

Hope this helps,
IBrakeForNobody

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Whether wind was involved or not, it WAS your fault.

Not trying to be a hard ***** here, but unless that was a 40 mph gust you could have compensated for it with more experience. That's not going to change and you may end up having the same kind of experience with the 4*.

Which would you rather crash the next time a gust of wind comes up? ;)
Dennis-

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I know you don't want to hear it but you NEED to fix and fly the trainer, probably for most of the summer. Put the gear on with nylon screws so they will break instead of ripping out the belly of the plane. NASA flies T-38's, saw lots of them when I lived in Houston, of course I can't tell you that was a NASA plane but it looked like a T-38.
Don't know what Stik-n-Rdr was talking about when he said full size pilots found using the rudder was un-natural but I doubt he knew what he was saying either. Something you pick up in just a few hours of training and get better as you go of course, like anything else in flying. Un-natural, give me a break.

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NewbetoRC,

I've read and enjoyed several of your posts. Don't take this as Negative BUT DO NOT BUY the 4 * or any other plane you are NOT ready and I believe the temptation to fly it will become so great that you will end up destroying it!!!!

I know its the last thing you want to hear but listen fly your trainer for the rest of the season 20-50 flights is barely enough! Learn to adjust it so that it becomes more responsive (i.e. increase control throws move CG back etc..) Then when you are ready the 4 * will be easy to fly;) Too many people leave there trainers before they are ready don't be that guy!!!:D

I learned this lesson the hard way when I was your age. I hope you won't need to also;)

BTW Loops and rolls are the basic components of aerobatic (Non 3D) flying learn them and more complex become easier nothing looks sillier then somebody mangling a maneover because they diddn't take the time to learn the basics. This is a hobby not a race all that counts is the enjoyment one gets from it. Set yourself some short and long term goals and work towards them in the long run I believe it will make you a better flyer

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Curious, you mentioned that this is the second time you did this exact same thing.

It's a perfectly normal reaction to give up elevator, , new pilots tend to want to pull up too far when they get into trouble but fail to have the airspeed/power to complete the manuever succesfully, then comes the stall, one wing drops, so now aileron is added which further aggravates the stalled wing and now it drops the wing even more, so more aileron is added, and now you have an accelerated tip stall. Next thing is the sound of breaking balsa because you are nose high, probably at least 45 degrees or more, out of airspeed and at full power (yep it's easy to stall at full power), one wing is stalled and dropping

I know, I have been there. I blamed it on myself at first and after some thought I realized what I had done.

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It is like a condition that can occur when flying full size planes. You get the nose up to a certain point and the plane slowed down and there just isn't enough power in the machine to pull straight out of it, you HAVE to drop the nose and let the wing fly (not much usually)and accelerate but you have to break the stall and it you are low it goes against everything in you to do it. Only thru training and discipline and practice will it come to you. Practice slow flight at a safe altitude. The major airlines(and others) practice these maneuvers in the simulators because it is too dangerous in real life but the training has saved many lives.
In a condition like Bubba described if you would have used rudder instead of aileron it would not aggravate the wing stall but again that take experience you don't have yet. As I have said before, Don't rush. It will come. It is your youth that doesn't want to wait, I was the same way.

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I had something similar happen a few weeks ago. Nexstar was taking off, it got squirly at the end and then some nice wind hit as it lifted off. It shot straight up in a vertical and was still climbing. At about 25 ft right wing dropped. I didn't panic and waited to see what it was going to do. I just let it fall like in a stall turn. When the nose dropped I gave it a little up elevator and it leveled off and pulled out of it. Granted, I was now going the wrong way but I learned from it!

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Bruce88123 said "Don't know what Stik-n-Rdr was talking about when he said full size pilots found using the rudder was un-natural but I doubt he knew what he was saying either. Something you pick up in just a few hours of training and get better as you go of course, like anything else in flying. Un-natural, give me a break. "

Bruce, I was just stating my opinion. I don't profess to be an expert full size pilot but do fly. Just like I do in the real planes, I must consciously remember to use the rudder when flying RC and have found through discussion that it's a weak point among full size pilots (professionals excluded, of course). Sometimes it is a subconscious, instinctive control I have over the plane from hours of experience. Most of the time, however, I must line up long on final and experiment to watch the cause/affect yaw action that is occurring from my stick movements on those brisk crosswind days. Maybe I will be a natural like you someday. I'll keep trying for sure because after all, practice makes perfect.:)

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Guys, thinking about it, I was in a huge hurry and probably was my fault. Thats one thing i HAVE to learn. Not to get into a hurry. That new table will be good. I think the plane will now be a taildragger. One more question. The balsa on the bottom of the plane, when the landing gea came out it ripped off, Should i even worry about it? I was just going to put some tape on it. Anything else i should know? Will start rebiulding that sing tonight.

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If it's possible tack the sheeting in place with thin CA then either coat it in thin CA OR epoxy.

Next since your converting it to a taildragger use a scrap piece of ply to make a LG mount to be epoxied inside the fuse and coated with epoxy so you can bolt your LG to it.

Can you get us some detailed pics so we know whats the real extent of the damage is?

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Landing gear mounting plate should be plywood, 1/4" probably. Put some doublers on the fuselage sides (1/8" ply) to support it. Install 1/4" T-nuts into plywood and use 1/4" nylon screws to mount the gear to the plywood. On a bad landing, all you should do is snap the screws. Keep a few extra screws on hand and you should be able to repair in a few minutes. The plywood should run full width of fuselage and @ 2" front to back, a little more if you have a wide bracket. Balsa just doesn't have the strength for lndg gear mtg, especially on a trainer where you are expecting hard landing and more especially on grass fields

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I will get some detailed pictures of it. I have already done a little cutting, so it wont' be accurate and i might keep it a trike. I just don't know yet... I did make a ply mount for the landing gear.

Had a question about the wing though. The curveed part of the sheeting on the leading edge broke. And the balsa breaks when i try to resheet this. How shoul i make it work? Some ribs and a piece of ply across? This will be where the rubber mands go so it will need to be strong.

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Replace/repair any damaged ribs. Wing sheeting can be made to bend easier if it is wet. Water with a little Ammonia in it, dab it on and try to curve it around, don't try to do it all at once. Bend it a little around and hold in place with rubber bands. Apply a little more water mixture and tighten (or add more) rubber bands. Steam also helps to make it curve better(no ammonia, don't want to breathe) I know you are bending along the correct grain? Be sure to use the orig thickness of balsa. Once sheet has taken it's curve let it dry in place. AFTER dry, glue into place. This all may take a while, again-don't rush

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bruce, what i did was go ahead and put the piece in place ont he inner rib, and the i am letting ti dry overnight and will keep adding a little bit. Let me get all the pics on the comp. I love my worktable. I have a nice sander enxt to it that has gotten use for the first time in years... JOY

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ok here are the pics of the plane. Sorry, on some i had already started repairs, but you can get the jist of it.

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are you using plywood? it kind of looks like indoor paneling your using to redo the bottom of the fuse, If so... and this is just me talking.. you might want to try and get some actual plywood from the hobby shop.. I'm not sure if that stuff looks sturdy enough... but hey.. whatever works... and nice workstation... not sure about the leading edge of your wing though.. that'll be a tough one.. or atleast it would be for me LOL... because of all the stress on the wing at that point... anyway.. good luck on your repairs...

Casey

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It's Really thin plywood. We got it from lowes instead of the hobbyshop though. You would be amazed at how much cheaper that stuff is at lowes...

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The rebiuld is coming along.
Heres what i got done today:
Ply where ladning gear goes glued and landing gear attatched.
Ply where landing gear was glued
Servos remounted in tray
Engine and gas tank back in
Wing about 1/3 done
Some more little things also, I just can't remember. I will not be able to fly this weekend because my instructor can't, but instead i am going to the lake to being the wakeboarding. Hopefully this will not drag me away from RC. lol

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Good start on the repairs. It is always best to break the major repairs up into a series of minor repairs. That way, none of them seem as intimidating. As a whole it may look hopeless. Broken down into smaller pieces and you are more than half way thru it already. Lots faster than building a new plane and much cheaper. Many takeoffs and landings will be good to practice. I think your flying will be fine, most accidents occur during T.O. or Landing, especially in full size.

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Let me know how that wood works out.
I had my first shock yesterday when I purchased a leading edge and some sheeting at the LHS.
I thought right away that there has to be a cheaper source.