RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

If I'm in a hurry I can go out and buy an ARF kit and not get to attached to it. If I want to do a pride of workmanship beautifull plane I'll build another Depron Pizza box:D

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Perfectly ... the part of my job that annoys me most is projects tend to be driven by time and money, often sacrificing the important third leg of any project, QUALITY. This is my Hobby, not my work. I used to take pride in my work ... until Time and Money forced me to "be more pragmatic" (advice from my manager). These days, my pride is reserved for my hobby, since work obviously doesn't appreciate it. Do I want these same goals and resulting pride in workmanship and accomplishment for my hobby? Nope!

Thanks for answering my question. ;)

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

For me I found that kits cost more to put together than ARFs. Total scratch building from plans is cheaper than ARFs but takes a lot longer longer as each piece has to be marked out, cut, and then sanded. Talk about taking up lots of time![X(] One of the nicest planes I fly right now is a Cloud Dancer 60 from plans. Its fairly big which makes it easy to see and its a very smooth flyer. :D

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I guess that if you want to totally scratch build a plane then you need a cad program to design one by. An Idea of what you want the plane to look like and be different from any other out there. Then the tools to fabricate the parts from basic balsa and aircraft plywood and foam. Then after all the cutting and sanding, you build the plane. Thats a lot to expect from a scratch builder but I know several guys (including me ) who do it. Time invested will never be paid for by money. Pride in a job well done cannot be priced. However there are several kits and ARFs that can satisfy your building instincts. That is the reason for all the ARF, RTF,Kits and products out there. This hobby has it for anyone or everyone that wants to persue it. Cost of doing it all ... Who cares? It is the pride and the satisfaction that is reward enough.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Don't need CAD, pencil and paper would do the job. CAD is nice though.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

You beat me to it.

Fact is, I'm finding CAD to be slowing me up but, I suspect that's because of the learning curve. Still, sometimes it's faster to rough out a thought on paper than it is to determine how to tell the d*mn PC what I'm thinking. So much faster that the thought can get lost while convertng to CADspeak.[:@]

As for scratchbuilding being cheaper, I don't see how. I've never managed, although I try to convince my wife that bulk materials buying is cheaper, I never finish that sentence ; "...cheaper than not buying in bulk".;)

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I don't care to have an ARF, I prefer to scratch build from my own plans or those of others. However, I recently build an airplane from a kit. Now I have a set of plans and I could have scratch built the airplane from plans. Also, there is an very nice ARF of the airplane available. I built the kit because I could not do a better job from scratch, and I don't really enjoy making wing ribs. I did a little modification, a little mechanical updating of a '50's design, which I would have don to a scratch build or an ARF. And yes, the kit alone cost me about the same as an ARF. Not counting tools, glue, silk, dope.

Way I look at it, if I go to a movie, I pay so much an hour to be entertained. I consider an hour of building or an hour of flying as entertainment. So it is fine with me to invest a little more to get some more hours of building entertainment. ;)

One thing I figured out about building when one doesn't have time. Break the build down into very small tasks. That way, you can spend 5 minutes and get something accomplished. You can't do everything that way, but a lot of building can be broken down into small segments.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

If you are one of us that uses wood glue (Tite Bond II), You need the drying time anyway. As long as you have an area where you can leave your build table set up, you can build a little at a time

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

All good points.

Having small kids at home, and an active work and social schedule, a lot of times, all I have is 20 minutes. But that's often enough to set up for the next extended building session. Often a quick cleanup can help prep for a later rewarding session.[8D]

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Well. I have ARF's several kits and about 10 plans to scratch build from...Jim a $25 order of balsa (bulk if you will) can probably get you 10 planes out of...well I do fly 1/2A so maybe 1/2 that many in the .40 size $5-12 for the plans...working on 2 scratch ideas on my own for 1/2a pylon racing, the motor mount is the tough part, wing is solid sheet, it and the tail group attach on rails to a carbon fiber arrow shaft.....these are the most fun for the $$$....Rog

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

if you enjoy building and plan on building your own kits initial run up cost can be expensive,after that you can build them cheaper if you are a prudent shopper.a lot of building supplies,things like stick pins,table cloths,cardboard sheeting,measuring tapes,yardsticks rulers,and a lot of other materials can be bought at local dollar stores.i buy white glues and epoxies,spray paints from the hardware stores.my children and i do other woodworking so i can justify buying things like scroll saws bench and sanders.if you can find the kits that include most of the things needed like control rods fuel tanks clevises.you can build them cheaper than an arf.the last kit i built was a pt 60,and i kept a list of supply cost.i got the kit for $80,three rolls of mono-coat,and pint of glue one bottle of med and one of thin ca,a fuel tank and three light wheels with clevises,fuel tubing,sandpaper three grits$75 and some change.$155 total and knowing that my daughter and i built it and it has IMO better quality than i could buy as an arf.and i get to spend time at home with my daughter she is my building bud,it took about 5/ 8 hour days to get the kit built and covered,and the enjoyment out of doing it.the look on my daughters face when we took it to the field to fly was priceless.i think the labor part doesn't count if you enjoy building these things.if you were to put a price on the labor or tried to make money at building models by hand you would starve.startup basic building materials i would estimate about $300.if you build about 3 to 4 kits you would break even as opposed to buying three arf's.i build 60 size planes so i figure arf's cost $200 each.i think that scratch building might cost a little more.the pleasure i get out of this hobby with my family and going to the field to be around others that enjoy it is well worth it to me.the cost of building bigger/smaller kits would be proportional to what i have priced,if you plan a budget.you can spend a lot more depending on extras......

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Nice!

My yongest girl (5) likes to sit with me and watch me work. She really takes an interest and is delighted when she can lend a hand, even if it's as simple as retrieving snacks for us.[8D]

As for saving money on kit with included accessories ... my experience hasn't been as good. I tend to throw out the junk I've found included in most kits, it's almost as bad as the stuff I've seen that comes with ARFs .... almost.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I bet that was a Nobler :)

I always build from scratch, which in my case means a sketch and sheets of balsa. I costed one model as I was building it and the grand total was $100 (US$70) for everything. For my purposes there was only one equivalent ARF which sold in the region of $1500 so I came out in front there. However it took me a solid 3 months of work to complete compared to maybe 30 minutes for the ARF. But this is a hobby and a hobby is something you do in your spare time for enjoyment.

ARF's are fine for those without building experience because at least it'll fly reasonably well and you start to get building experience after the first prang :)

Kits are good in that you learn how to assemble a complete model from bits and pieces and later on how to decide which wood is suitable and which pieces are junk so you scratch build those pieces from better wood.

Building from plans lets you decide what materials you want to use and gives the chance to make small changes so it looks a little different and becomes more individual. If you're serious about building a better model this is when you take your digital scales to the shop to find the most suitable wood. You can also hone your engineering skills by finding different ways to build it stronger but lighter.

Then there's designing and building your own model using everything you've learned and you get a great kick out of it when it flys better than anything else you've done before :D

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I like 'em both! I enjoy building, but I am s-l--o---w at it. I take my time, and usually build WAY too heavy. I honestly had to buy an ARF sport plane a couple years back to attend a fun-fly because everything else was uncovered or nowhere near completion; and that ARF is still my most often flown plane (including skis in the winter). It's had three engines and I use it as a test bed because I'm a little more willing to risk it. I even have the center-of-gravity slightly behind the recommended range just to make it even snappier.

Not all ARF's are created equal. Some at our club have had wing ribs work loose from insufficient glue (NO glue in one case), and there have been several that had other glue-related failures. I had an RCM 40 that had the firewall seperate on an 'enthusiastic" landing.

Thinking back, I can recall only a couple airplanes I built without modifying the design in some way. One I even built "upside down" and made a low wing out of a shoulder wing. That's a BIG part of the fun in kit building. Making something unique or different.

Now if we could just get Great Planes to kit the Big Stik.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

This post is going a little towards the ARF Vs Kit (Scratch Build) argument which was not the original question…

Having almost completed my first kit I was shocked at the price difference between building it and Buying an ARF… But when I really thought about it… Remove the costs of Engine, Radio, Fuel Tank (Which I replace in an ARF), Push Rod gear (which I replace be it ARF or Kit) and the price difference was not too bad…

Also… If I had used some China coat, wood glue instead of CA and cheap fibre glass products it would have been even closer to the ARF cost… But I have a better Airplane so it one half dozen or 6 of the other…

Plus in NZ RC Airplanes are expensive what ever you do... (US$99 for a kit) HAHAHA Try NZ$275-300 for a 4 Star 60 Kit!!! And a NZ$1 in NZ is worth a much as a US$1 in the US as far as working for your money goes...

But price is not the object... If I did not want to spend money on Airplanes I would not have started...

As for ARF v Kit discussion… Which I can’t help but comment on… :D It’s completely superfluous!!!

You start this hobby for fun so there is not right or wrong answer as to what you should do when acquiring Airplanes… If you’re happy with your decision… Then no amount of comparison between ARF’s and Kits matters…

It’s only logical (unless you’re wealthy and retired and can build all day) to have a mix of kits and ARF’s…

In my 12 Months in the Hobby I have acquired 5 Airplanes… 2 Kits and 3 ARF’s…

I would not go back and change this choice… I have a Airplane on the board all the time but only need work on it when time allows and I don’t have to rush. Meaning Quality… While my ARF’s satisfy my need for more and more Airplanes… :D

Please not though that all the comments on collecting tools, building experience, pride in work etc etc etc when it comes to kits is very much true!!!

Matt

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

OK. Then it depends entirely on how much you value your time, and whether you consider time spent building a gain or a loss.

If you pay yourself minimum wage you cannot kit for less than an ARF. (IMHO)

But you can definately build a better plane (wood, integrity and component quality) than most ARFs; though there are top quality ARFs for those willing to pay.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

A lot of really cool airplanes just are not available as ARFs or even kits. I love building my own planes from just a set of plans, it gives me something to do with my scroll saw and disk sander.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

There's another side to this argument about ARF/kit/plans/scratch.

As one gets older (really older), there is far less time left to enjoy life. While I truly love designing & building models from scratch, it just takes too damned long. My life is ticking away & I very much prefer flying, to sitting in the basement, despite the pleasure that a good "build" brings. For me, that's where ARF's really show their stuff. I can buy a good looking & good flying model, & have it in the air in a few days.

I'm long past worrying about the niggling details -- been there & done that. I'm long past the "look what I did all by myself" stage -- been there & done that too. ARF's just get better & better -- they look pretty good -- much better than most modellers can turn out themselves (at least in a believable amount of time). They also fly pretty well --- if they don't fly quite right, it is no trick for me to fix the problem, as it is also no trick to catch the quality niggles before they get airborn. They are also great fun to bash into something else -- & that bit of building goes quickly.

I still grind slowly through an occasional scratch job, but very infrequently now --- I prefer to go flying (it's also a lot cheaper with an ARF).

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I guess it depends what stage you are at, and the type and quality of flying you like.

I don't have to buy an ARF to get something flying, my biggest problems include having enough computer memories to support the fleet I already have, and maintaining the batteries....

I guess building for me is almost a separate, but related hobby. It's not so much about the "look what I did", it's more about having an aicraft that I enjoy flying. I derive a large part of that enjoyment as a celebration of a job well done (personal pride in workmanship) but, also, being able to relax, safe in the knowledge that I have invested due diligence to ensure that my aircraft is not about to become a safety hazard.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

if you look at the cost on a plane vs. plane basis, of course a kit is more expensive to get in the air than an arf.

if you look at a time rate of cost, kits are cheaper (for me anyway). with arf's they build/assemble fast; and when i fly them, i push as hard as they'll go, and eventually something happens that can't be fixed--[sm=lol.gif]NEXT!! if i flew only arf's, i could go through 20 a year. not because i'm a bad pilot, but because they just don't matter to me and i'll try really stupid $#!t with them.

but with my kits and my one scratch build, i take good care of them on the ground and in the air, so they last much longer. so, i need fewer planes and fewer $$$ for the same amount of enjoyment over the long run. that's what my wife has drilled into my head anyway... "[sm=tired.gif](zombified) fewer planes, fewer planes, fewer planes...."

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I see it as a personality thing. I mean, I enjoy building almost as much as flying. Others I know hire out all their building and just fly. Still others dont fly all that much but spend gobs of time building.
If you enjoy the build, dont just buy kits. There are literally thousands of plans out there. Kit your own! Buy balsa from Balsa USA or Lone Star. They usually have bulk specials so you can stock up. The plans are typically full size and have all parts (bulk heads, ribs, etc.) drawn out that you simply copy over to a template and cut your own parts. Sure it takes longer and as stated above, will probibly cost more in the long run. But its a Hobbie and if you enjoy it, and can afford it, buy it! Beats a set of golf clubs IMHO> ;0)
Dave

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Now that's too personal!! [X(] Beats a set of golf clubs -- in a pig's ear!:) There's nothing quite like making your own clubs, [8D]and then smacking the crap [:@] out of that miserable ball with them!! :D

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Well, let's see....

Scratchbuilt Plane (first one)

Plans from AMA (#149): $11.50 (discount taken for being a member)
Wood to build Plane: $150.00
Tools needed, but not on hand: $20.00
Covering for said Plane: $28.00
Assorted hardware (blind nuts, bolts, screws, ): $10.00
Engine: Already bought and paid for (transplant from broken trainer) $0.00
Replacement Piston/Liner for said engine: $65.00
Radio Gear: Already bought and paid for
Servos: $13.00 (Had to buy one more)
Y-Harness: $9.00

Kit Plane (2 done)

Kit: $79.99
Engine: $69.00
Radio Equipment: $119.00 (flight pack)
Wheels: $10.00
Covering: $28.00
Assorted Hardware: $40.00

ARF (1st plane) Birthday Present

Airframe: $100.00
Engine: $109.99
TX/RX combo package: $149.99

To say nothing about the "little bits of this and that" you need to go with the hobby.

Seeing them take to the air for the first time knowing you built them with your own two hands: Priceless!

Just don't let your wife know!:D


Enjoy!
Don

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Where can you buy some Pylon Racing Q500 plans? Does anybody have any website to reference.

Thanks,

Mike

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Open a new thread in the correct forum IMO.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/forumid_149/tt.htm