Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I guess the title of the thread says it all, I was just wondering which costs more in the end to do. I figured it would be cheaper to go with a RTF because I don't have any of the tools to make an airplane... What tools are necessary anyway? Thanks

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I hear this argument at my field at least once every weekend or so. The answer is simple, there really isn't any way you can build a plane for the same cost that ARF's or RTF's are produced for. That's all there is to say in regards to the original question.

But now for the flip side of the argument. When people tell me that an ARF would have been cheaper than what it cost me to build a plane. My simple answer is "So what?" I don't build planes to save money. I build planes because I like building them. Nothing more, nothing less, no economic factors involved at all.

Ken

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

That's what I kinda figured, thanks.. just wondering though about the equipment that you'd need. What are the required things that you'd need to put together a plane from a kit. Thanks

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I know it sounds funny, but you actually get more out of a kit...

Not only the build time (if you enjoy it, you will agree it alone is worth the extra money)

But i cant imagine (this is speculation as i havent maidened a build yet) that the difference in feel and pride on your maiden is worth anything that hte build experince doesnt pay for...

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

kits CAN be cheaper after you have done a couple and are well stocked with everything. you need a stockpile of tools, equipment, monokote, basically everything you are going to use. lots of kits do not come with hardware either, or at least minimal stuff, so you have to factor in those costs if you don't already have it.

to build a kit, you are going to need covering, flight hardware, various hand sanders, dremel clone (requirement in my book!), various hobby knives, good supply of at least two different speeds of CA, kicker, 30 minute and 5 minute epoxy, silicon adhesive, fiberglass cloth, white glue/probond, threadlock (blue), fuel tubing, pushrods (goldenrod), soldering iron, silicon adhesive, some spare balsa of various thickness and also spare dowels. I also like to have carbon fiber and kevlar thread on hand.

probably missing a couple, but that pretty much covers it.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I have built several kits and they have always cost more to put in the air than an equivalent ARF. However I get much more satisfaction out of flying a plane I built from a box of wood than an ARF. Having said that now days pretty much all my new planes are ARF because I jsut don't have the time to build a kit.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

heat gun, sealing iron, trim saw(optional?), T pins or some sort of building board system, measuring device, square, mixing cups, mixing sticks, plan protector, and many others I'm sure. BUT ALL of the tools needed are well worth the joy of seeing the flying machine YOU built take off, fly, and land. JMO I will admit the stress is higher for me when I fly the plane I built than it is flying an ARF but it is still worth it to me

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

As my Grandma is fond of saying "You get what you pay for".:D

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

.The other thing besides NOT being cheaper, is when you build your plane ,you can CUSTOMIZE it to your prefferances,ending up in a "ONE of a KIND" model.YOU may see other planes that look similar,built from the same kit, but there`s none, that will be identicle, in every way...I think ,that with ARFs ,the company`s looking to make a buck and they shop around to find the the "best bargain" possible for parts that are installed in the pre-built plane.I`ve seen many times, planes equipped with, not so great retracts ,for example,just to keep the ARFs price down..THINGS like that are in the builders control, if your constructing from a kit..You can shop around,for the, top of the line parts,or of a lesser quality, (up to you)for your "NEW AIRCRAFT". MY GRANDMA used to say, CHEAPER is CHEAPER,meaning costs less,but you get less....I wonder if our grandmas went to the same school,JIM[:)....

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

The plane that YOU build will have better glue joints because you will take your time and use a better quality glue. Tools you purchase will be used on future kits. A bottle of wood glue should do several planes (depending on size of plane and glue bottle). Pride of workmanship will last forever. Many parts will be transferable to next plane when this one dies. I prefer to build my own.

There is nothing wrong with buying a ARF/RTF to become a pilot. But you need to build a kit to become a "modeler" IMO.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

You can do exactly that with an ARF as well. It is also very satisfying turning an ARF into something that no one else has.

Building models is fun -- regardless of what you start with.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Something else to consider is that while a kit may cost more in the end, that expense can be drawn over a preiod of time. In other words, if you had $100/month to spend, the first month you could get the kit and some glue, next month buy an engine. A month later get wheels, tank, covering etc. and later get your radio. So while you're paying a little more, you're not doling it all out in one lump sum.

BTW, the tools needed are as many or as few as you desire. I once scratch built a 2 meter glider using only a set of drill bits (No Drill) a razor blade, a hacksaw blade, and a piece of sandpaper (Used household Iron foir covering) and the plane was beautiful! Of course, I wouldn't want to have to do it that way again, but it just goes to show you that you don't HAVE to have a shop full of equipment. A few driull, a few razor blades, some sandpaper etc.

The one tool I would recommend getting would be a razor saw. They come in very handy

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

although i have never built a kit. i would add that even putting together an arf requries quit abit of equipment anyway. i have only assembled arf's and i have bought just about every piece of equipment listed in this post (except razor saw). my point is if cost of equipment goes into your decision remember your still gonna have to buy most of it in the end.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

.It kinda of takes the point of RF, out of ARF.I`m sure there`s satisfaction, in repairing an ARFs ,downfalls.NOT to cause argument but, building in my mind ,such as kit building,is actually fabricating the kits, parts, in to an airplane, and an ARF is just putting,the prefabricating assemblies together..I would say that,any thing done to an ARF, is basically a modification ,and it`s still a ,"COOKIE CUTTER"airplane thats,just being improvised on.I know from my experiance, the only thing that gives me more pride, than a kit build ,is a scratch build..It`s very personalized ,and priceless to me,though it does cost more.It`s something I wouldn`t feel from a ARF...D.B

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Hi Pendraegon...
Yes it probably costs a bit more to kit build and it will definitely take more time to get airborn. In the picture below you will see a set of tail feathers for my GP Ultimate 40 biplane that I started yesterday. 56 pieces total that had to be cut, trimmed, sanded and glued. (only 4 pcs were die cut). A full days work for me. I have built and completed ARFs in the same amount of time. I am hoping to maiden this plane by Christmas!!! Why do I spend this much time building when I can buy a comparable ARF and have it in the air in less than a week? 1- I think I can build a stronger airplane than an ARF version, 2- I can modify any part of the plane that I want to make it more compatible with my flying style (within reason). 3- I can cover it in any combination of colors I choose to make it different than the same plane that someone else at my field may be flying. and 4- (most important to me) As already mentioned above there is a sense of accomplishment that can't be measured when you see it in the air for the first time and know that you built it from a box full of lumber and you made it FLY !!!! I have built several kit planes and it always feels the same way after a good maiden flight -----YEEEEeeeeHAAAaaa !!!!!! :D

Dale Jenkins
Southern Eagle Squadron
Leesburg FL.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Hey, this could go on & on ---:D

The part about modifying an ARF comes after you're "bored" (I hate that word) with the ARF. There is just about anything that you can do with one (ask the guys that make 4-engine multi's out of old trainers, for example). This is hardly cookie cutter stuff. I have had more fun turning a pig's ear into a silk purse than I have in scratch designing & building some models.

With the ARF you are faced with some pre-determined characteristics that you want to radically alter -- that is a tougher job than working from a clean sheet.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

AND ON ,AND on,AND on,and,ON;) not trying to shoot anyone down.This is meant to be funny.A person can make ,crap from scrap,or can scrap the crap, and then make ,something from that...:D LOL... whatever a person decides on the sky really is the limit you can make anything expensive,if you know what stores ,to visit.:eek:.D.B.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

:D:D:D I give up.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Couldn't have said it better myself Ken. You can buy cheaper planes already built for you, but for me a huge part of this great hobby is the building of it - the experiences and knowledge of building it with your own two hands - gives me great pride.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I agree with Ken, leaving the hobbie can be very affordable. :D , But, What if you SUFFER building, instead of enjoying it? That means you will be paying for the added suffering:D.

Also, like someone else said before, you buy the kit and glue and some tools, then you buy the engine and more tools, then the hardware and some more tools, then the radio gear and mooore tools.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

The few times I've been to the field so far I've gotten compliments on my plane. I heard folks talking about it and they referred to it as a "kit build LT-40" vs just an LT-40. Made me feel good that folks recognized that you built it yourself.

Nothing like seeing what used to be a pile of materials and a kit take-off into the air as a plane and knowing you built it. :D

somegeek

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

IMHO time is money , so ask yourself which takes longer to put together, a plane that is a kit or the same plane that is an ARF ? I hope this answers your question.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I enjoy building a plane. I enjoy rebuilding a plane. Doesn't matter if it was an ARF or a scratch built. The thrill of building or rebuilding will always cause more excitement to me when takeing off or landing than a new ARF I have just put together. It does not matter the price of the ARF over the built or rebuild. Knowing the hours I have put into doing something and having it fly is worth a lot.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I enjoy building plan to keep on with it. The consensus around our club is that building is much more expensive ( lots more beer
ocassional divorce etc.)

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

If you have skill, and you can create something unique and valuable , and you enjoy it, then build. Your skill will increase in time, and your planes will be valuable enough to offset the cost of the hobby. You can fly for almost free.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

If I'm in a hurry I can go out and buy an ARF kit and not get to attached to it. If I want to do a pride of workmanship beautifull plane I'll build another Depron Pizza box:D

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Perfectly ... the part of my job that annoys me most is projects tend to be driven by time and money, often sacrificing the important third leg of any project, QUALITY. This is my Hobby, not my work. I used to take pride in my work ... until Time and Money forced me to "be more pragmatic" (advice from my manager). These days, my pride is reserved for my hobby, since work obviously doesn't appreciate it. Do I want these same goals and resulting pride in workmanship and accomplishment for my hobby? Nope!

Thanks for answering my question. ;)

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

For me I found that kits cost more to put together than ARFs. Total scratch building from plans is cheaper than ARFs but takes a lot longer longer as each piece has to be marked out, cut, and then sanded. Talk about taking up lots of time![X(] One of the nicest planes I fly right now is a Cloud Dancer 60 from plans. Its fairly big which makes it easy to see and its a very smooth flyer. :D

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I guess that if you want to totally scratch build a plane then you need a cad program to design one by. An Idea of what you want the plane to look like and be different from any other out there. Then the tools to fabricate the parts from basic balsa and aircraft plywood and foam. Then after all the cutting and sanding, you build the plane. Thats a lot to expect from a scratch builder but I know several guys (including me ) who do it. Time invested will never be paid for by money. Pride in a job well done cannot be priced. However there are several kits and ARFs that can satisfy your building instincts. That is the reason for all the ARF, RTF,Kits and products out there. This hobby has it for anyone or everyone that wants to persue it. Cost of doing it all ... Who cares? It is the pride and the satisfaction that is reward enough.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Don't need CAD, pencil and paper would do the job. CAD is nice though.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

You beat me to it.

Fact is, I'm finding CAD to be slowing me up but, I suspect that's because of the learning curve. Still, sometimes it's faster to rough out a thought on paper than it is to determine how to tell the d*mn PC what I'm thinking. So much faster that the thought can get lost while convertng to CADspeak.[:@]

As for scratchbuilding being cheaper, I don't see how. I've never managed, although I try to convince my wife that bulk materials buying is cheaper, I never finish that sentence ; "...cheaper than not buying in bulk".;)

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I don't care to have an ARF, I prefer to scratch build from my own plans or those of others. However, I recently build an airplane from a kit. Now I have a set of plans and I could have scratch built the airplane from plans. Also, there is an very nice ARF of the airplane available. I built the kit because I could not do a better job from scratch, and I don't really enjoy making wing ribs. I did a little modification, a little mechanical updating of a '50's design, which I would have don to a scratch build or an ARF. And yes, the kit alone cost me about the same as an ARF. Not counting tools, glue, silk, dope.

Way I look at it, if I go to a movie, I pay so much an hour to be entertained. I consider an hour of building or an hour of flying as entertainment. So it is fine with me to invest a little more to get some more hours of building entertainment. ;)

One thing I figured out about building when one doesn't have time. Break the build down into very small tasks. That way, you can spend 5 minutes and get something accomplished. You can't do everything that way, but a lot of building can be broken down into small segments.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

If you are one of us that uses wood glue (Tite Bond II), You need the drying time anyway. As long as you have an area where you can leave your build table set up, you can build a little at a time

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

All good points.

Having small kids at home, and an active work and social schedule, a lot of times, all I have is 20 minutes. But that's often enough to set up for the next extended building session. Often a quick cleanup can help prep for a later rewarding session.[8D]

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Well. I have ARF's several kits and about 10 plans to scratch build from...Jim a $25 order of balsa (bulk if you will) can probably get you 10 planes out of...well I do fly 1/2A so maybe 1/2 that many in the .40 size $5-12 for the plans...working on 2 scratch ideas on my own for 1/2a pylon racing, the motor mount is the tough part, wing is solid sheet, it and the tail group attach on rails to a carbon fiber arrow shaft.....these are the most fun for the $$$....Rog

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

if you enjoy building and plan on building your own kits initial run up cost can be expensive,after that you can build them cheaper if you are a prudent shopper.a lot of building supplies,things like stick pins,table cloths,cardboard sheeting,measuring tapes,yardsticks rulers,and a lot of other materials can be bought at local dollar stores.i buy white glues and epoxies,spray paints from the hardware stores.my children and i do other woodworking so i can justify buying things like scroll saws bench and sanders.if you can find the kits that include most of the things needed like control rods fuel tanks clevises.you can build them cheaper than an arf.the last kit i built was a pt 60,and i kept a list of supply cost.i got the kit for $80,three rolls of mono-coat,and pint of glue one bottle of med and one of thin ca,a fuel tank and three light wheels with clevises,fuel tubing,sandpaper three grits$75 and some change.$155 total and knowing that my daughter and i built it and it has IMO better quality than i could buy as an arf.and i get to spend time at home with my daughter she is my building bud,it took about 5/ 8 hour days to get the kit built and covered,and the enjoyment out of doing it.the look on my daughters face when we took it to the field to fly was priceless.i think the labor part doesn't count if you enjoy building these things.if you were to put a price on the labor or tried to make money at building models by hand you would starve.startup basic building materials i would estimate about $300.if you build about 3 to 4 kits you would break even as opposed to buying three arf's.i build 60 size planes so i figure arf's cost $200 each.i think that scratch building might cost a little more.the pleasure i get out of this hobby with my family and going to the field to be around others that enjoy it is well worth it to me.the cost of building bigger/smaller kits would be proportional to what i have priced,if you plan a budget.you can spend a lot more depending on extras......

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

Nice!

My yongest girl (5) likes to sit with me and watch me work. She really takes an interest and is delighted when she can lend a hand, even if it's as simple as retrieving snacks for us.[8D]

As for saving money on kit with included accessories ... my experience hasn't been as good. I tend to throw out the junk I've found included in most kits, it's almost as bad as the stuff I've seen that comes with ARFs .... almost.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I bet that was a Nobler :)

I always build from scratch, which in my case means a sketch and sheets of balsa. I costed one model as I was building it and the grand total was $100 (US$70) for everything. For my purposes there was only one equivalent ARF which sold in the region of $1500 so I came out in front there. However it took me a solid 3 months of work to complete compared to maybe 30 minutes for the ARF. But this is a hobby and a hobby is something you do in your spare time for enjoyment.

ARF's are fine for those without building experience because at least it'll fly reasonably well and you start to get building experience after the first prang :)

Kits are good in that you learn how to assemble a complete model from bits and pieces and later on how to decide which wood is suitable and which pieces are junk so you scratch build those pieces from better wood.

Building from plans lets you decide what materials you want to use and gives the chance to make small changes so it looks a little different and becomes more individual. If you're serious about building a better model this is when you take your digital scales to the shop to find the most suitable wood. You can also hone your engineering skills by finding different ways to build it stronger but lighter.

Then there's designing and building your own model using everything you've learned and you get a great kick out of it when it flys better than anything else you've done before :D

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

I like 'em both! I enjoy building, but I am s-l--o---w at it. I take my time, and usually build WAY too heavy. I honestly had to buy an ARF sport plane a couple years back to attend a fun-fly because everything else was uncovered or nowhere near completion; and that ARF is still my most often flown plane (including skis in the winter). It's had three engines and I use it as a test bed because I'm a little more willing to risk it. I even have the center-of-gravity slightly behind the recommended range just to make it even snappier.

Not all ARF's are created equal. Some at our club have had wing ribs work loose from insufficient glue (NO glue in one case), and there have been several that had other glue-related failures. I had an RCM 40 that had the firewall seperate on an 'enthusiastic" landing.

Thinking back, I can recall only a couple airplanes I built without modifying the design in some way. One I even built "upside down" and made a low wing out of a shoulder wing. That's a BIG part of the fun in kit building. Making something unique or different.

Now if we could just get Great Planes to kit the Big Stik.

RE: Does it cost more to by an ARF or to build from scratch
 

This post is going a little towards the ARF Vs Kit (Scratch Build) argument which was not the original question…

Having almost completed my first kit I was shocked at the price difference between building it and Buying an ARF… But when I really thought about it… Remove the costs of Engine, Radio, Fuel Tank (Which I replace in an ARF), Push Rod gear (which I replace be it ARF or Kit) and the price difference was not too bad…

Also… If I had used some China coat, wood glue instead of CA and cheap fibre glass products it would have been even closer to the ARF cost… But I have a better Airplane so it one half dozen or 6 of the other…

Plus in NZ RC Airplanes are expensive what ever you do... (US$99 for a kit) HAHAHA Try NZ$275-300 for a 4 Star 60 Kit!!! And a NZ$1 in NZ is worth a much as a US$1 in the US as far as working for your money goes...

But price is not the object... If I did not want to spend money on Airplanes I would not have started...

As for ARF v Kit discussion… Which I can’t help but comment on… :D It’s completely superfluous!!!

You start this hobby for fun so there is not right or wrong answer as to what you should do when acquiring Airplanes… If you’re happy with your decision… Then no amount of comparison between ARF’s and Kits matters…

It’s only logical (unless you’re wealthy and retired and can build all day) to have a mix of kits and ARF’s…

In my 12 Months in the Hobby I have acquired 5 Airplanes… 2 Kits and 3 ARF’s…

I would not go back and change this choice… I have a Airplane on the board all the time but only need work on it when time allows and I don’t have to rush. Meaning Quality… While my ARF’s satisfy my need for more and more Airplanes… :D

Please not though that all the comments on collecting tools, building experience, pride in work etc etc etc when it comes to kits is very much true!!!

Matt