why should down mean up?
 

Ok ,,, I'm really new at this sport and it's alot of fun. But it can be hard to learn it at first.

Question is:

How in the the hell does it help a newbee like me, make it easier to fly that pushing "down" on the elevator would propel the plane upwards?

Sure ..it works. But it goes against all natural instincts and reactions unless you've been doing this for years.

So tonight I've reversed the servo on the the elevator so when I push it up the plane will go up.
Am I alone in my thinking? Has anyone else tried this? Am I creating a bad habit for for myself?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

I guess this was moved from full scale planes concepts, in which the pilot pulls the stick towards him to climb as if he is pulling on the nose itself, and then pushes it forward to descent as if you are pushing the plane's nose downward.

In fact, you can "rc fly" in whatever configuration you prefer, but I believe it is better to adhere to the standards as much as possible. It will be easier in the long run :)

RE: why should down mean up?
 

you are a man on a island my friend.
the sticks are set up like a real plane and you are best served to learn the time honored and established way way to fly your plane.
if you are in a full scale airplane, to go up you pull back on the yoke/stick, to go down you push forward or in your case up learning in reverse bad habit if you have a simulator then the sticks will be set up in the standard way if you were to try to fly another plane that is not set up in reverse then you are setting yourself up for a quick crash.
I am sure this is just the first post of many.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Bigtim..... lighten up my buddy. God forbid I violate any " Time Horored" protocal regarding aviation. I just remember the old time pilots pulling back or pushing forward to adjust the elevation of the plane. There was no " push down or push up".

I'd have to admit that I'm way to new to this sport to intelligently discusss this point at depth and I thank you for your input.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Fadi81,,,,

That makes sense. Thank you.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Dont look at the elevator stick movement as UP and DOWN but more as a FORWARD and BACKWARDS rotation which your model
(or the full size) follows. You rotate the stick around an axis, and the model pitches to follow the stick.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

flip2,,

Thats just it. If I want the plane to go NW then I move the stick to NW not SW. Just like on a compass. Maybe that's my problem. I look at the sticks like a compass.
Am I making sense? Am I the only one to do this?

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Welcome to the best hobby sport in the world. I can understand your rather 'strange feeling' as it's somthing many of us had to go through in our early days, but our desire to succeed saw us through.

Believe what the previous posters have told you and enjoy this hobby as we all do rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. As you travel along your learning curve and your flying skills improve this will simply fade away just like a bad dream.

Karol

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Earl, you are holding your transmitter wrong... or maybe I should say, "You're not holding your transmitter the way everyone else does"

The Tx should be held relatively flat, not standing up.

This makes the stick movement forward and back, not up and down.

Now by all means, you may set it up anyway you like, but you will never be able to fly someone elses plane nor could they fly yours.

But beyond that, it's just something that's not done. It's like wearing shoes on your ears because your ears are cold but your feet are not.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

If by some chanc eyou go to a ama chartered field and get some help learning to fly or are distressed and need someone to take over for you they other pilot will not be able to fly your plane if the elevator is reversed. I have been flying for years and have had to give control to another pilot due to circumstance such as uncontrollable sneezing fits and irritants getting in my eyes causing reduced visibilty. Just some food for thought.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

I think there is a simple conceptual error on earl's part, and its a common beginner error that an instructor should be able to correct. The elevator does not make the plane go up or down. The elevator simply corrects the pitch of the plane. Now pitching the plane up will, in most cases make the plane climb. But there are cases (stalls, snap rolls) where it does not. Learning this fundamental concept is key to being able to fly the plane, not just keep it from crashing (there is a difference).

When you learn to think of the sticks in that vein, you will have no trouble.

Brad

RE: why should down mean up?
 

You got that right. And not in RC either.

Ever heard anyone yell, "PULL UP! PULL UP!" ???? OK, with your TX in your hands, pull up. What did you do? You pulled the stick. And which way did it go.

In a couple of the different disciplines within RC there is considerable discussion of stick movement. Matter of fact, there is a fair amount of stick movement in full scale precision aerobatics. And when all those guys talk about maneuvers that require pitch up or pitch down they say "push" when they're talking about pitching the nose down and "pull" when talking about pitching the nose up. Wanna use the right words and be understood? Learn 'em and use 'em the way all before you did. :D

Lighten up my buddy. The issue isn't exactly life and death and really doesn't need that kind of emphasis if that's what it was meant to do. :D

No. But everyone else made a lot less noise about it. :D Wait until somebody mentions your airplane's "water line".

RE: why should down mean up?
 

In the event that you would like my concept of the ordinary orientation of the Mode 2 aileron/elevator stick....

Make a stick plane, like the pattern competitors use to visualize. Stick a toothpick in the canopy, so it stands up like an extension of the control stick on the floor.

Now support the plane with your left fingertip, and pull the toothpick fore/aft or side to side. You will see the plane nose up when the toothpick is pulled back, etc.

It's a convention. There are others, Mode 2 is only one of them. If you defy convention, hey, you're a rebel.

Dave Olson

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Nope, don't look at it as a compass. Don't even look at it as I am stearing left and right or going up and down.
You will quickly develop a habit that is difficult to break later on especially when you start with aerobatic moves and when you put the plane in strange positions.
This is also a quick root to completely forget about rudder stick :P

Always remember that you need to roll and/or pitch and/or yaw the plane in addition to speeding the engine revs.
Also for throttle don't think of it as gaining or reducing speed :D

It might appear as though in the beginning, but believe me you will come to realise later on that it is not necessarily true!

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Let me add my two cents worth here. Aerodynamics say that pressure on one side of the wing causes it to go up or down. The elevator moves to change the distance the air travels over the top as compared to under the bottom of the wing. The elevator control stick, generally speaking in our US Mode of operation, is the right stick. This stick is 'connected' to the servo that controls the elevator. The standard operation, probably set to mimmic controls in a full-scale joy-stick operated plane, called to move the stick back toward yourself to make the elevator go up and cause the nose of the plane to go up (the rear to go down in other words). The opposite happens when pushing forward on the stick, the nose goes down while the rear goes up. The reason this happens, is because of the aerodynamics of the wing and the action of the elevator on the horizontal stab.

So, simply stated, the design was set when someone way back when, decided that the joy stick in a full scale plane is pulled back, the tail goes down while the nose goes up. This is all centered around the plane's Center of Gravity, by the way, and is one of the reasons to have a correctly positioned CG.

Sorry to digress.. just wanted to get that out. It was a subject of a discussion by my instructor when I was learning to fly RC. And, believe it or not, he questioned me before each flying session as to some subject of flying, aerodynamics, lift, whatever. I would get the pop quiz and had to pass before we would fly.

DS.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Push the clock forward. If you learn it backward you won't be able to teach nor will you be able to help a newbie save his plane.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

If you really want your controls reversed, fly upside down! Just kidding. Learn the traditional way and you will be fine. As said earlier, once you do it a little while stick movement in any attitude, will become an automatic reaction. That is to say you will not even think about it, you'll just do it. Orientation is probably the biggest hurdle for the new pilot, and once overcome, everything else just seems to fall into place. Good luck, and enjoy a wonderful hobby.

Bob

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Great point, Scar! The toothpick idea is a real outstanding viewpoint.

DS.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

As I am teaching new flyers, and trying to help them deal with reversal, that is when the plane is flying toward you, I suggest they project themselves into the plane. Frankly that is what I do.

If you were in the plane and wanted to bank left, you move the stick left. If you want to bank right, you move the stick right. This is always the plane's left and right, not the left and right of the RC pilot standing on the field. Likewise, if you were in the plane, you would pull back on the stick to raise the nose and you would push on it to lower the nose. So it is for the pilot in the plane, so it is for the RC pilot.

That is why we talk about pulling up to come out of a dive and pushing over into a dive. You will never hear someone yell, push up, push up! because it would not make sense in the context of the plane.


As stated earlier, when I am flying, my radio is more or less flat out in front to me, not verticle, so there is no up and down on the sticks. I only have forward and back, left and right. In Europe, I understand that transmitter trays are common. In that case the radio is virtually flat and it is just like sitting in the cockpit.

If you want an UP/Down correlation for up and down of the plane, then that would be the throttle stick.

As many instructors will tell you, you control altitude with the throttle stick and attitude/speed with the elevator. So you push the throttle UP to climb and Down to come down ( forward and back for me).


BEYOND WHAT YOU ASKED BUT RELATED - Up elevator does not make the plane climb

If you don't have enough speed/power you can't climb with the elevator no matter how hard you pull back. In fact if you don't have enough speed, applying up elevator will cause you to dive and perhaps spin as well. This is called a stall caused by too much up elevator for the speed of the wing.

In fact one of the reasons why new pilots crash is because they think the elevator makes the plane go up. They apply up elevator with insufficent speed, and the plane stalls an starts to drop, so they apply more up and the plane dives. The correct response to a stall is to apply down elevator so the plane can gain speed and the wings can start to generate lift again, then you slowly, gently apply some up elevator to get back to level flight.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Everyone had excellent comments. I'm going to learn the correct way such as all you have suggested. Thanks again.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

OMG!!!!

Someone actually LISTENED to us!!!!

Way To Go Earl!!!!!

:D

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Well, you know it was bound to happen eventually!!! :D

Ken

RE: why should down mean up?
 

your body is the center of the aircraft stand up and lean forward and then back and left right and see what happens,it is a natural reflex.i imagine when the first airplane controls were built that the bell cranks and controls also dictates that they be oriented that way.its a standard and you always have to have rules and standards to be able to Orient yourself.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

I know that it feels really strange at first, but if you just stick with it I promise that it will become natural. Infact you will begin to think that the other way would be really weird. Although if you are a video game player you will often find yourself confused when up is up and down is down and you will wish it was like RC airplanes!!:) I also will assume that you are a beginer looking for an instructor, who will no doubt, refuse to teach you until you unreverse that servo!:D

Just my thoughts,

LT-40

edit: sorry, didn't see that you had decided to go back to the standard way. Good Choice!

RE: why should down mean up?
 

It's only pushing "down" if you're holding the transmitter upright like a nOOb...otherwise, like most of us who hold it inclined nearly to the horizontal or like the finger and thumb tray resting purists, completely horizontal, it's forward and back, just like the stick in real life.

The "natural instincts" you rote learned over years of mouse orientation in Half Life and Quake or <insert name of favourite FPS here> you mean? :D

Generally, probably and yes.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Like everyone else has said, it matches the control movements of a full scale aircraft. Instead of thinkign about it as moving the stick down to make the plane go up, think about what the plane is actually doing. The plane basically changes pitch. Moving the control stick to the rear, makes it pitch up or rotate to the rear (nose up, tail down) and moving the stick forward has the opposite affect. Also, there has to be standards. Look at cars. You can hop into any make of car sold here in the US and find a familiar steering wheel, common brake pedal location, etc. Someone could dream up countless ways to control a car but this sort of standardization makes things safer and easier to learn. Also, the "standard" has usually evolved over the years to something that works well for the largest group of people.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Just a point of order.

For a beginner, I think it's best not to confuse pulling the elevator stick with "up". Yes the nose pitches up when you do that, but if you pitch the nose up the plane will only go up with airspeed. As a student, you should be learning that elevator controls pitch, not altitude.

You will go farther much faster in the learning process if you keep to convention, listen to experienced people and shun the advice of people who simply can't fly.....even if they have been doing it badly for 30 years.

Good Luck!!

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Hi All,

Just to confuse matters, when i was learning i had problems with Mode 2 (aileron and elevator on right stick) for aerobatics. My brain just isnt wired the correct way for that mode, as i was unconfident that my elevator inputs weren't effecting the roll attitude (ailerons). SO i went to mode 1.....which splits the elevator out on the left stick...and immediately i found inverted was alot easier....

All that said...I'm afraid its practice, practice, practice...Also with mode 1, its a real pain to find someone to teach you, as mode 2 is by far the most popular, over here anyway...

Hope that helps?

Wavy

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Why has everybody got their horse trained to respond to gee and haw? Is it ok if I train my horse to go just the opposite?

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Yes you can, and it will make it harder for people to steal your horse! [X(]

RE: why should down mean up?
 

And you probably won't be able to sell the nag to any other farmer in his right mind even for what she's worth, and she won't be worth much to anybody else.

And you'll never be able to get your hired hand, nor anybody else, to work that horse worth spit.

And you'll probably never be able to work anybody else's horse worth spit.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Yeh, you're the only one.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

As a total newb who has never flown an RC plane but have some time in real planes it sounds like i will have to over ride natural instinct when it comes time to control a plane by pushing forward to go up!!! and pushing the stick to the left to go right!!! This setup makes no logical sense to me and i,m with the original poster about re wiring the control to exhibit a more natural response,

RE: why should down mean up?
 

What's not natural about the planes we fly. In your full scale you pull back to nose up (climb), push forward to nose down (dive), move the stick to right to go right, and move the stick to the left to go left. It's EXACTLY the same thing in an RC plane. The movements of the stick to the exact thing for the RC plane. What you are referring to is what we call stick reversal, and this probably THE biggest reason why full scale pilots have difficulties when learning to fly RC. When a full scale pilot is sitting in the plane and moves the stick to the right the plane turns right, and the same for going left. Now on an RC plane flying away from you it's the same thing, stick to the right move the plane to the right which is your right. But when the plane it coming towards you the it's opposite. You move the stick right and the plane moves to its right, but now this is your left because the plane is coming towards you. This is what you referring to. But trust me, the controls for an RC plane aren't "wired backwards".

Ken

RE: why should down mean up?
 

I am not sure what you mean, but the RC radio stick setup is the same as full scale. You pull the elevator radio gimble to add up elevator, push to add down elevator. For ailerons, left stick is left aileron up and right aileron down. You would only push forward to go up if you were inverted. What full scale is opposite to this?[sm=72_72.gif] Just curious.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

In case you guys haven't noticed, he already said he would do it the right way.

You're beating a dead horse.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

YOU ARE NOT ALONE:
The fact that I will not be flying in a RC restricted field means that I can (and do) reverse the hookup and/or servo to accept the UP=UP & DOWN=DOWN.
I will be the only one flying my planes so I will be the only one that needs to be comfortable with the directions of the sticks, and the configuration I do is easier on me and less confusing.

Maybe I am wrong to teach myself to fly (OK, I am WRONG to learn without an instructor) but I learned computer on my own, I learned horses on my own (and consider myself [and others have told me] have become somewhat professional) so it looks like I will learn RC on my own:eek:

EDIT: Unless someone gives me real good reason why my thinking is wrong. If I hear that it is bad way of thinking I will do it the CORRECT way.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

This entire discussion is kind of interesting. To me, the mode 2 setup is perfectly natural. You pull back to rotate backward, you push forward to rotate forward, left to rotate left and so on. Maybe it's because my first flying experience was in a full scale plane and this is basically how the controls work or maybe it's just because it matches the way me brain is wired (what's left of it anyhow). I just can't see how anyone doesn't find the standard stick layout normal. I guess peoples perceptions all vary. I also think a few people may have the up, down thing a little confused. Actually, once you start doing any sort of aerobatics, up, down, left and right all become relative. If the plane is traveling toward you and it is inverted, everything is backward. That's why you have to think about it from the plane's perspective, not yours. It works for me anyhow.

As for learning to fly without an instructor, I did it. I think I did OK too but I sorta regret it. I probably would have learned quicker, and with one or two less crashed airplanes if I'd joined a club sooner and learned from some experienced people. Wherever you fly, make sure that there are no club fields within a few miles. You could easily take down someones expensive airplane if you are on the same channel. Trust me, it can happen.

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Sorry Minn, thought this was a different horse.[sm=lol.gif]

RE: why should down mean up?
 

Nothing wrong with teaching yourself to fly. Many have done it. And set up your controls any way you like.

What we have expressed here, except for the fooling around, is that these are the standard way of doing things and there are reasons why they are the standards. Standards, norms, usual manner simply means that that is the way the vast majority of people will do things. If you choose to be different, to follow your own path, that is your choice and you are free to make it.

Just realize that you isolate your self from the the rest of the community in this respect.

Clear Skies and safe flying.