Do I need to move on?
 

I'm feeling pretty good about flying my trainer. I have been trying a few new manuvers but my trainer is 1 under powered and 2 it's a trainer. One of the guys at the field said I should put my Kaos together and start learning some new stunts on that verses the trainer. When I try something on the trainer I'm never sure when things don't work out if it is me or that my plane is a trainer and slightly underpowered. What is your opinion? Start out easy with my Kaos and slowly start trying new things or make things work with my trainer before I move on?
Thanks

Chopper man

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

OK - let's start... What kind of trainer do you have? What does it weigh? Do you have ailerons? What engine do you have? Prop? [sm=72_72.gif]

NOW; What sort od manouvers are you trying to do? How long have you been flying? How good are you?... :eek:

My point here is that I/we don't know all the details - I have seen fellows that were ready to solo in 2 weeks and moved on to advanced aircraft in two months. THEN there were the guys that haven't soloed after two years... [:o][:'(]

I spent two years on my Eagle 2 and then moved up when talent and money permitted. ;)

If you are very comfortable on your trainer and are looking for an extra challange - go for it! :D Just be sure that the challange is within your reach or you could be buying another challange in short order... [:o]

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

I just moved up from my LT-40 to a Sig Somethin' Extra and it went very smooth. My LT-40 is converted to a tail dragger with a CG set at the suggested intermediate point. Before moving to the SSE, I got the LT-40 to do stall turns, loops, cuban eights, sustained inverted flight, spins, and some other basic maneuvers. So as far as "stunts" go, a trainer is capable of quite a bit if you move the CG slightly back (within the recommended range) and experiment with larger throws. Try that while you are putting your Kaos together, and you will probably be able to judge for yourself just how well you can handle a more aerobatic model (i.e. your good old trainer :)) The Kaos will probably be a good step up after this, and you'll be more accustomed to quicker control response. Before taking my SSE out for the first time, I made sure to dial the control throws down a good bit to prevent overcontrolling it. You may not need to do that with the Kaos since its not a fun-fly model. HTH

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

I have been flying the Tower Trainer with an OS .46LA and a 10x6 prop. I had to take a little break while my wife continues to battle cancer and I now have been able to get back to 1 day a week. I can do loops with no problem. I had one of the guys try to roll it and he even had a tough time getting it to roll. I tried inverted flight today but the plane just wants to right itself. Again I'm still new at this and I am expermenting on my own so I might not be doing it correct either. I started flying nitro last Nov. and then stopped in April of this year. Even during that period I flew once a week or once every two weeks. Not as often as I would like to have flown. Thanks for your opinions[8D]
chopper man

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

few people truely MASTER the trainer. but i for one can crash a trainer with a great deal of expertise;);)

not all trainers are equal i like my LT 40 but it has only 1/2 the usual dihedral and a slight increase in rudder surface area so it is semi areobatic also a tail dragger . OS 46. inverted is pretty good as i can fly it around the field and stay inverted. my students like it fine
i often train them on it if theirs has problems or not completed yet or whatever.

try some one wheel touch and goes with a target of where to touch down and see how you do. and see if you can do some stunts consistently..... but there is nuttin wrong with having a new plane also!!

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

It sounds like you're not ready yet...inverted flight on a trainer can and should be mastered before going on, rolls can be done perhaps you need more throw on the ailerons plus a trainer will need some down elevator into the roll to keep the altitude. cuban 8's, ally oops,immelmans, split s can all be done... master these on a trainer and you'll be a better pilot always

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Thanks;);)
chopper man

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

It's time you hopped that trainer up a bit. It won't cost a penny, and you're ready for it.

Re-rig the aileron's. Almost all trainer's are setup with slow ailerons. That's why yours had a tough time rolling. Move the pushrod connections on the aileron horn in one hole. Fly it and see if it isn't quicker on the ailerons. Now try to roll it.

I very often tune a beginner's trainer's ailerons to not be fast. And after the student is comfortable flying and it's time for them to step up a level, we speed up the ailerons. The trainer not only rolls easier, but handles almost everything with more "authority and accuracy". And they're ready to have a different feel to the airplane to learn. And having a quicker airplane without having to buy another one is a real bargain. And I very often fly my student's trainers around upside down. Haven't seen one yet that wouldn't. But trainers definitely want to right themselves. It's what they're supposed to do. And it's great training to learn inverted flight from a trainer. They help you bigtime when you get confused. A model that's better at inverted will be less apt to help you when you get confused.

Can you loop? Consecutive loops? Immelman? Split S? Hammerhead/stall turn? Stall into a spin?

If you can't do them comfortably, and instantly on command, you're not done with that trainer. She'll do a bunch of stuff, she just needs the ailerons hotted up. And MIGHT need the elevator juiced up a touch. But she's not done with you yet if you can't do those things mentioned. And she's the best to learn them with. I teach all my students those maneuvers while they're also learning to land. It teaches airplane control. Which is actually the point of the whole deal.

BTW, if you can do all those mentioned, then have you snap rolled her yet? Some will, some won't. But you'll learn a lot trying it with the old girl.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

1. Practicing the inverted flight be sure to keep a little extra altitude until you know that both you and the plane can recover well.
2. Easy way into stable inverted flight is a half loop. No ailerons needed for entry. Once there use ailerons to maintain wings level and elevator to keep the nose from dropping. If the nose gets too low - recover to upright level flight immediately. (Before the garbage bag is needed)[:@] It may help initially to stop the half loop entry with the nose a few degrees high to give you a moment to adjust.

You (the plane that is) really should be able to fly circles around the field with the Tower Trainer inverted.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

if you still get the jitters when flying your trainer, then you should keep flying it till it get's boring.keep flying it till your not afraid of it anymore.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

I must be reading a different thread btoby. I didn't see him mention "jitters" or being "afraid" of his plane. In fact, I read "I'm feeling pretty good about flying my trainer." Just because he has a few questions doesn't make him "scared", it makes him "smart".

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

there are loops and then there are loooops,
are your loops perfectly round and to you finish at the same altitude as you started or are they egg shaped and you finish lower that at your starting altitude?the first scenario is the correct loop if you can do that then you are ready for other manuvers if you are in the 2nd catagory practice is required,reduce throttle on the down side

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

oh by the way when your working on inverted flight here is a little ditty that may save your airplane
When in doubt roll out. In other words if it doesn't feel right roll out of inverted never loop out....you probaly wont have enough altitude

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Thanks for all the advise. I am definitely ready to move on to more challanging things. I had my first dead stick after I was doing a go around. Things worked out ok. Thats not to say that they will all work out but thats part of the hobby. But bruce88121 and da Rock have hit it on the head. I need to change a few settings on my Tower trainer. I really didn't look at it in that light, and hence why I ask questions. I'm excited about flying my Kaos but I want to be ready for it by being 1 step ahead of the plane. I'll change a few things on the trainer and try all those things mentioned above.

chopper man

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

atta boy chopper man...catching the trainer inverted was work for me but once i got it I had it...you'll be a better pilot for it

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

I'm going to stick with my trainer until I can fly it with my eyes closed. Ok maybe not all the way closed:D:D I've got some more work to do with my trainer before I move on. In the mean time I'll start putting the Kaos toghether and then it will be ready.

chopper man

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Good plan.:)

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Chopper man,
Sorry that I haven't responded to this thread earlier than this, we've been on vacation and I've had limited time on the keyboard. But here's a little info that will help you out. I learned to fly on a the Tower Trainer too. I can tell you with absolute certainty that this trainer is capable of flying complete circuits of the flying field inverted. It does take a little bit of work to fly it around the field like that, but once you've mastered doing this you will be well rewarded for the word when you move on to other planes. And I wasn't flying on the engine. My trainer has an OS 40 FP (equivelant to a 40 LA) on the plane. As for rolls, there is on simply thing you can do to help out here. Seal the gaps in your ailerons, elevator, and rudder. You will be completely shocked at the difference it will make in the plane. It will take it from a so-so roll to a solid roll that you can actually be proud of.

BTW, I've been flying for 11 years and I still have that trainer that I learned on. I still take it to the field about once a month or so. It's a total blast to take the old trainer out and fly it again.

Ken

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Just had my Kadet Senior out today! That was my trainer and I still have fun when I fly it, although it HAS gone though some changes, like a '91 OS, flattened out wing and stuff like that. Two sides of the coin here, there's nothing like having a new plane to keep you interested in flying. My second plane was a Thunder Tiger Lazy Tiger with a 40LA. Whether you have another plane to master or not, keep trying things with your trainer. By the way, are you a "Crank and yank" kinda flyer? You know, wide open and always trying to keep up with it? If not, and you've learned throttle control, you are definitely on your way to improving your flying. If pulling down on the left stick is foreign to you, try it. Find out where the stall speed of your trainer is and learn to use the throttle and elevator to keep it up in the air. In my opinion (yup, it's only MY opinion so it won't get you much) you haven't outgrown your trainer until you've learned the ENTIRE envelope of what it can do. Many folks think that because they can keep it in the air and land with the engine still running, they have "mastered" their trainer.

Try new things with your trainer, if something goes wrong, your trainer has a better chance of survival than a faster, more aerobatic plane. You can even get a better feel for the different characteristics of prop sizing and pitch by swapping out the blades on your trainer, especially since you've gotten used to how it flies. A larger engine (you said it was underpowered) could change the flight characteristics greatly. If you are able to build, try building a wing with a lot less dihedral and fly with that for a while. It can totally change the plane and you've still got the trainer wing to use if a friend wants to learn. Whether you do any mods or not, try things like picking a spot on the runway and try to land consistently at that spot. That can teach you precision, even with your trainer. By the way, I was hovering MY trainer today.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

mastering inverted flight shouldn't be the limiting factor to advance to the next level of aerobatic plane,but being confident and doing the basic manuevers smoothly is a indicator that your ready for the next step.
I have been back at it for several years now and still feel uncomfortable with inverted flight,mabee its because I didn't practice the basics enough[X(].
moving on is a personal thing,a good second plane is a 4*,or a Sig Somthing extra also a good kit to work on,I chose a fun kit called a GIZMO.
if you want to try a more manueverable plane ask a more expierenced club member to help you out to get it up there, and give it a try,its what I did and found out it wasn't that hard after all.
I was given the oportunity to fly a fellow club members plane,a U Can Do,and I knew I was ready for the next step after flying his.
when I built my second plane the GIZMO,I had a club member trim it for me and I didn't fly my trainer again,again with some help from my club members I have been flying warbirds which is my main interest in RC,really do what you feel is right.
best wishes for your wife also,I don't know what I would do without mine.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Flying inverted should have nothing to do with moving on. Especiall when it's in a trainer with typical dihedral where it's a PITA. If you can handle that in a trainer, flying inverted in something better will be no problem. Flying iverted is just one more area to check off. I have no use for flying inverted, so I don't, doesn't stop me from getting whatever plane I want.

Flying iverted does not lessen my skills as a pilot which is probably why i end up with the same number of planes at the end of a season as what I started with.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

BTW, very often we think the next step up is a move to a more advanced airplane. It isn't.

It's when you learn the next level's maneuvers. Or improve your skills to that level.

Too often we think we just need an airplane that will do the things we want to do. It's a great excuse to buy another airplane, but it ain't how it works. Very often, that "better" airplane will do stuff easier, but is actually harder to fly safely. And very often, the airplane we already got will do what we expect to get for free with that next airplane.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Thanks for everyones input. Everyone has valid points. I will admitt that I would like to fly my Kaos but I also know that after reading your replies that I still have alot to try and learn on my trainer. Until I master my trainer I'll know that my Kaos is safe in the box and I will not destroy it because I was impatient. Like I tell my little girl, your time will come. Oh by the way, my little girl who is 7 flew on a buddy box yesterday with one of the guys at the field. She did pretty good for a first time. I think shes hooked.:):):)

chopper man

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Very cool. It never hurts to have some young blood coming up through the ranks. Even when other things may come along and pull her attention, when she gets some time and cash, she could very likely find herself a hobby that she can enjoy for the rest of her life.

I didn't want you, or anyone else to think that I was being heavy and saying that you shouldn't fly your Kaos, just that there is so much more your trainer has yet to teach you, if you will only give it the opportunity. I see plenty of folks who fly their trainer and after two weeks, have it for sale, thinking they've outgrown it. I think they're wrong.

Make a list of things that you would want to do with your Kaos, and then try them with your trainer. Just stay high enough to recover. My thought is that if you can make a trainer do it, then making a more aerobatic plane do it should be a snap. But, that's just me thinkin' again.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

my trainer i used to have would loop fairly easy and roll alright. but it was an avistar 40 which is a somewhat aerobatic trainer. i have flown a tower trainer for some people teaching them how to fly and they are hard to do aerobatics with. where with a trainer you have to work to get it to roll but with a kayos for example all you have to do is push the stick to one side. i would say if you can take off, fly around do basic aerobatics like loops, rolls if the airplane will do it, and then land with no sweat then i would say go on with the 2nd airplane. most trainers aren't built to do most aerobatics because they are made to right theirselves. but keep your trainer incase you go a little while without flying and need to touch up on basic flying. once you get more experience going 3-4 weeks at a time without flying wont phase you but learning really you have stay pretty consistant. but yes i would say go on with your next airplane.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

After reading everyones advise I started taking a look at my trainer. The ailerions were set at the low rate. I now have them set at dual rate. Other than what might be the ovious with bigger throws, what might I expect on my first flight with that setting? Do I need to adjust the elevator to get more throw?
Thanks
chopper man

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

I'm at the same point with my LT-40 w/TT 46 Pro. Flew it a total of 8 flights yesterday doing hammerheads, slow rolls, flying inverted the length of the field, figure 8's and spot landings. I was doing full up elevator takeoffs at about half throttle. The nose would come up almost immediately and I'd roll down the runway where it'd lift off about halfway down. Easy way of getting a trike gear model to act like a tail dragger.

I moved our CG back to the middle 30% (3-7/8" behind LE). Training CG is 27% or 3-1/2" behind LE. I also bumped up our rates a bit and dialed down the exponential to -15% from the -25% it was set at originally. I also started out with some Ch4 (rudder) mixed into Ch1 (ailerons) but took that out since I need to manually learn to use the rudder more.

Our "move-up" ship is almost ready to go. An H9 UltraStick 40 w/Saito 62 and quad flap arrangement (good excuse to acquire a Futaba 9CAPs radio) should serve us well. I also have a Sig SE kit still in the box which is tempting (build me, build me, build me!). May have to slow down a bit since I own 11 Futaba S3004 servos, T6XA and T9C transmitters, R319DPS, R138DP and R127DF receivers.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

It depends on how much more throw you have.
My Kadet senior started out with 3/8" up or down and I went to 1/2" I could barely notice a difference in normal flight but there was a tremendous difference when doing any aerobatics.
On the other hand, my BrightStar on low rates is a great flyer, on high rates it is difficult to control. (low rate is 50%)
When you are ready start off with your regular low rate and have someone stand next to you. Once in the air you can switch to high (if high is too much and you are all over the sky the guy standing next to you can flip the rate switch back while you concentrate on flying)

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Chopper Man,

Fly the Kaos!!

I think it flies better (and just as easy) than my LT-40 that I learned to fly on or my LT-25 trainer.

Just do it!!

Dave

ps: should you take my advice, I predict that you'll be wondering why you didn't fly it sooner.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

The general trim for ailerons is to rig them so that your airplane will do about a roll per second. Needless to say, non-aerobatic types aren't expected to toe that line, and some of the aerobatic types stomp that rate. So how do you do it?

There is a basic setup that experienced modelers start with. Rig the pushrod from the closest in hole on the servo arm to the fartherst out hole on the surface's control horn. If that doesn't give you the 1sec/roll rate (or whatever you're shooting for), you move the connection in one hole on the horn. If that doesn't work, move it out one hole on the servo arm. If not, in on the horn, out on the arm, in on the horn, out on the arm etc etc. You want to do all the initial setup on the airplane. Have your radio setup for 100% throw for high rate and something like 60% for low rate. Do all the timing of the roll rate while flying on full rates. Leave your radio alone. Lots of reasons why.

As for the elevator...........
Rig the elevator the same starting setup as the ailerons. Same reasons (which weren't given as they're explained all over the place). The elevator should be trimmed at high rates to be able to be able to turn the airplane in a pitchup that would work for a square loop. Don't know what that is? Ask an expert at the field to show you one. If he is, he can show you. For aerobatic airplanes, lots of flyers trim the high rate elevator throw to be able to just stall the wing at full throw. If it can stall the wing at less, they reduce the throw until it won't and then increase it back a touch. And then their elevator low rate will be very safe for things that don't require stalling the wing. Like landing.

Do you need to adjust the elevator for more throw? Only you can answer that by flying and trying.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

chopperman, Set your throws up a 1/4 in. on your all control surfaces, and seal the gaps on them too . This well help improve your trainers flight characteristics. Fly it like this for a couple of weeks and see how you feel about what you have learned.
If you feel good about it, then move to the kaos , but keep in mind , the kaos wont righten itself like your trainer. You have to do more of the flying,

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

How do go about sealing the gaps on the control surfaces.
chopper man

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

In my [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3439708/tm.htm]Pay It Forward build thread!! LT-40 build [/link] thread I addressed sealing gaps in the thread. You can find the sections in the build by following these links.

Aileron gap sealing starts here:
[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5398504[/link]
Rudder/Elevator sealing starts here
[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5589251[/link]

Ken

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Tx Ken, thats way better than could explain it and pics too!

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

bigtim-"best wishes for your wife also,I don't know what I would do without mine. "

HERE HERE! hope everything works out chopper man! behind every great pilot is a great woman.

ok ok. now for a newbie yous all talk chinese to me. immelmans? Split S? Hammerhead/stall turn? not to sound dumb but what do these maneuvers look like in the air? is there a chart or illustration somewhere?? id like to try these but dont know what or how to do these. i know your basic rolls and loops and half cuban 8's. i know what a knife edge looks like but dont know how to perform it(opposite rudder and aileron simultaneously?) i heard of a blender, harrier, rolling harrier, inverted harrier(maybe?) but have no clue what it would look like. can anybody help??:)

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

Good question.

But off topic to this thread. So how about you start a new thread in the forum asking the same question. Cut and paste works great.

There really is a good reason RCU wants people to stay on topic. It gets new threads started that focus on really good questions that need to have their own title and attention.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

will do- i apologize.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

firestone, try this link for more info[link=http://www.bruce.ogilvy.clara.net/text/training/aero/a01.html] Training basics.[/link] good luck.

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

thanks insane- im sure u can tell im pretty wet behind the ears lol. actually im reading faqs now. shoulda done it sooner!!

RE: Do I need to move on?
 

RCKen: I just went back and looked at your covering instructions/details. Incredible job, informative, complete, and recommended reading for all beginners and old salts alike. I for one would like to thank you for the time and effort you provide in these forums to help and instruct.

Chopperman: Put your Kaos together while you're trying new things with your trainer. It's always good to have a project going while you have something to fly just to keep the hobby fresh and fun......if you're like me it's going to take you a while to assemble the Kaos anyway.

Good Luck!