very new to this stuff.
 

Maybe it would help to put yourselves in the shoes of the folks who are responsible for the safety of the field. Say you're the member of a small club with no rules. One day, you're all minding your own business in the pits, when a .40 sized trainer going full throttle crashes at your feet. You all say, "Geez! Somebody could get hurt!" You come to find the person flying the plane was just learning to fly, didn't see anything about rules, and just made a mistake. You all get together and decide that you've got to have some rules. Worse, they appoint gr8johnson as the guy to come up with the rules.

What would you do? You don't want to hassle anybody with rules, but you do want to minimize folks flying unsafely. The chances are, you would set up what you considered the minimum test that shows competence in flying an airplane. You would probably be very lenient giving the test, particularly with folks you knew well and were friendly. You might choose the dead stick test because 1) it's pretty easy, and 2) it shows a little bit of understanding wind and where you are in the sky. You might say, "Geez, if they can't glide their plane down to the runway from 200 feet, I'm not sure I want to be working in the pits when they are flying."

My guess is that you'd come up with similar rules to what other guys did in 90% of the AMA fields. Yes, I've heard of a few fields where the membership really don't want new members, but by and large, most of the fields are friendly, and they want you to fly competently.

By the way, I've gone through this exact process with a club that had no rules to one with a pilot competency test, and people pissed *****ed and moaned, but the guys who had the unlucky task of implementing the rules sincerely tried to make it work for everybody.

very new to this stuff.
 

gr8johnson3,

Yeah, I figured that was that kicked this off, hey, no problem.

The reason I posted it wasn't because I was looking to force rules on anyone. It was becuase I'm doing more and more flight instruction, and I like to give as much to the students as I can.

If I just trained to the bare minimum, I'd be doing everyone a dis-service, espeically the students. So I was really looking for other guy's ideas on what "should" a new pilot know how to do.

I was looking to see what else people taught as "important". My club thinks deadstick landings are an important saftey issue, enough so to make it a "rule" (the rule existed long before I joined the club, btw).

I don't think it has to be a rule anywhere, but I do think everyone should practice them (and I'd been teaching that way before I joined my current club as well).

I also think guys should know how to do a split-s, and a loop, and a roll. I don't care if they are perfect, but the figure 9 manuever isn't usually a good idea. They aren't required, but knowing how to do it helps when you find your airplane upside down. If you've practiced basic aerobatics, you won't freeze and go in.

The suggestion to teach trimming is a good one. I don't think a lot of clubs teach that, but I can't count the number of times I've bumped the trims on my TX and didn't realize it. I also happen to fly piles of airplanes off the same TX, and while I usualy try to mechanically trim my planes to need 0 trim, I still use those levers a lot.

If I tell a guy he is good to fly by himself, and he can't handle it if his ailerons are out of trim, that's bad. If he craters because he tried to take off out of trim after I told him he was good to take off, it's almost as much my fault as his. At least that's how I see it.

As an instructor, I didn't do my job, I failed to teach the student how to handle his plane, and a crash resulted.

So, maybe my origional question was worded badly. I should have said "what do the instructors out here think should be part of a "minimum safe skillset" or something simular. Leave the "rules" out of it.

Personally, I'd like to see a lot less rules, and a lot more common sense. That's just me though.

very new to this stuff.
 

How you guys are talking it sounds like im going to crash my plane. Makes my stomcach fell good lol. But im going to get a instructor to trim out my plane and have the buddy box system.I don't want to crash my plane. Espcicaily (sp) into a car or buidling or even a person.

very new to this stuff.
 

Hey gr8johnson3,
If you are good enough to go to a empty field and fly, you will be good enough to solo in a very short time. Stick it out and make sure you can get it done with out the expense and time of rebuilding.

I have seen guys solo in two days. I don't know you but the video game/ simulator bunch is just unbelievable. A lot of the young guys that show up are light years ahead of the game because of the hand eye pratice with gaming.

In two years when your the old guy trainer at the club you will see the need for some rules. Too many are bad, but the more people there, the more the rules come into play.

MR Flyer57

very new to this stuff.
 

If you can't dead-stick then you aren't safe. It's as simple as that. Being able to control your aircraft is a major part of safety.

As far as it goes, most people don't land so well with the engine running because they don't understand the dynamics of flight. They come in holding the nose of the plane up until it is just below a stall and flop it in.

When the engine is out they stall it in almost every time. What I'm saying is that if you don't understand how an airplane flies and what it takes to keep it flying, how can you possibly consider yourself to be safe?

As far as rules goes, I used to be in the military. The barracks were full so they moved some of us to attic apartments in married housing. Obviously the married folks didn't like single soldiers living there. I lived right above a family with two young children.

I had a couple roommates move in who thought it would be cool to party all night. The neighbors complained and we almost got a curfew. Up to that point nobody messed with us and we could come and go as we pleased. I talked to these guys and one of them actually said, "So what? I'm moving out anyway!"

Well so what is that I'm not moving out and I have to live with the consequences of his behavior. That's how everything is. You mess up and we all suffer.

So if you want to go it alone, go someplace where you can't hurt anyone or be willing to suffer the consequences if you do. For example, you will not be covered by AMA insurance if you are not following the rules. Are you prepared to pay medical expenses for someone out of your pocket? Can you even pay to repair a car if you hit one? Think about it and be smart.

very new to this stuff.
 

Just want to add my comments to this....Very new to this.

Purchased an aerobird bout 2-3 weeks ago. Tried to fly it myself, flew into a wall. after parts arrived put it back together and flew again....this is were it became NOT FUN. They recommend that you fly this bird in CALM wind nothing more that 5-10MPH if i remember correctly......the problem with that is ....it may seem like a calm day but out in a field and at higher altitudes it can get much windier than anticipated. Thats excatly what happend to me.....got the bird off the gound, and see you later after 30sec the wind just picked this thing up and let me tell you flew it so far that i lost sight of it and was worried that it may hit someone or somthing and would never have known....i'm a little ticked that they make it sound so easy and of course title it RTF PLANE, yeah....whatever. Now i'm debating about getting another or scrapping the whole thing. any comments??

very new to this stuff.
 

Yes. Read this. :)

http://www.airfieldmodels.com/rc_cost.htm

very new to this stuff.
 

I asked the old-timer teaching me to fly: Can you see it? He replied: I couldn't see it a long time ago. New plane on maiden flight. I found what was left.

very new to this stuff.
 

Ouch!!

Maiden flight crashes are the worse kind. You must be as careful choosing a trainer as you are the plane.

Great link CafeenMan it should be required reading.

One more thing that should be said. Go to the field before you get your plane! People there have opinions that will make a difference. The trainers there are more confident and will do a better job if you have something that they are use to flying.

Also you will need a radio that matches, if the field is running JR and you show up with a futaba, things won't go as smoothly.
MR Flyer57

very new to this stuff.
 

Thanks MR FLyer - I'll add what you said to the page. I definitely agree about the radio thing, but I'm cautious about asking local flyers. Here's why:

There is always a person or seven at a club who are quite knowledgable and will give good advice. Then there are the wannabees who pretend to be experts but are forever having problems. Have you noticed how those guys always latch on to the new guy first? The poor new guy doesn't know up from down and gets a lot of bad advice that is costly financially as well as setting him back in the learning curve.

I guess I'm not sure how to advice a person to find the "right" expert as opposed to the wrong expert. Any ideas?

Example - there's a guy in a local club who considers himself to be an engine expert. He likes to walk up uninvited and start making adjustments to folks engines. At this point they start having engine problems the rest of the day when prior to this "expert" assistance the engine was running fine.

very new to this stuff.
 

Deciding who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't is hard.

The best thing to do is watch guys fly their own planes, and listen when they talk about their own stuff. Guys who talk about how they fixed their problems are good, guys who talk about their constant problems are not so. :) Also, I always think it's a good sign if you hear someone say they don't know something. It means they are less likely to be an ego-driven know-it-all.

Also, getting conflicting advice isn't always bad, it can give you differnet ways to look at things.

Oh, and if someone comes up and messes with my plane with out my permission, I'd be pissed. It's one thing to offer to help, it's anohter to mess with something uninvited.

very new to this stuff.
 

Hey CafeenMan,
I couldn't have said it better. In every crowd there are the know it alls and wannabes, the real sages have to be sought out, and a young inexperienced person will find it hard.
If you have any ideas on this little talked about side of this hobby please send them along.
I do not have a easy fix for this problem, and have seen it played out time after time. It seems the most helpful are not always the most knowledgeable and some know just enough to get your plane crashed.

MR Flyer57

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Montague - You are right but I was referring to beginners knowing who's who - not those of us who have been around the landing pattern so to speak. In fact, the guy in question came up and started trying to mess with my engine the first time I flew at the field as a guest. I just politely informed him that I knew what I was doing and didn't need (or want) help.

But the new guys rarely stand up for themselves. I saw this guy "fix" a newbie's engine to the point that it died right after take-off resulting in a splatter-landing. No damage except bent landing gear. Up to that point the engine had been running happily rich, had plenty of power and wasn't a problem. This guy just took it upon himself to say there was a problem when there wasn't one and then he failed to fix it. :)

Well, I'm not putting all that on my web site. I'll just make a note about hanging out at local clubs and talking to folks, etc. I can't save the world. :)

PS. Your comment about people who can admit they don't know something is dead on. :thumbup:

MR Flyer - Yes. :)

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well i do appreciate everyones opinions. though i think you are all calling me an ******* under your breath. my main problem is i dont have another $100.00 to join AMA and a club. so i will have to take my spad and find a field. i am not worried about my plane. less than $20.00 and it will be ready to go when i crash. sometime during summer i will join the AMA and a club. i wish i could get someone to check the flight characteristics for me once. just to make sure it is flying good. but until i join that club i am stuck. i guess i should have found out about AMA dues before i started in this hobby. i do realize this is not the cheapest hobby. i do make the money to support it. i just cant dump a bill down right now. well thanks for the input gang.

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gr8johnson3 - We all understand where you're coming from. Nobody is calling you anything, but we are looking at this from a viewpoint of overall safety as well as self-preservation.

Those of us who have been doing this for a while have been involved in several battles to keep our fields, etc. after local residents and politicians complained about noise, safety issues, etc.

If we want to keep flying we have to do it in a way that is an inocuous as possible and that includes keeping new guys out of trouble even when they don't see the problem.

I also understand the money thing. If you have to fly alone then PLEASE go somewhere well away from people. Read all you can, use a simulator, etc. Just don't go someplace where an out-of-control model can do any damage. If you do that then as you said, the most that can happen is you lose your plane.

Best of luck. Seriously.

- Paul

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Hi gr8johnson3,


I flew for years without AMA or a club, because only one friend and I ever flew RC.

There were no trainers and no field and no help. We taught ourselves. We flew off a two lane road and just had to watch for cars.

The group grew to 10 before we ever got together and formed a club.

We did crazy things and paid high prices for our hobby. We took people to the hospital at least three times. One guy lost partial use of his finger and one guy was hit by his new helicopter in the back of the legs, no trainer or help, we just went for it,,, a very bad sight!! Lots of blood and stitches. It is a wonder no one sued, but that was a different world. We lost a lot of planes for no good reason.

My point is that flying without a safety net it is still fun and there are people who hate the AMA and clubs in general. They fly and can help you just as much as club members.

I understand it, I just don't endorse it. If you fly by yourself, use common sense and try to stay far away from anyone who will get hurt.

This hobby is expensive and dangerous, to learn by yourself, Without rules or any help it is more expensive and dangerous.

I have a thousand stories of near misses and some of them would have be truly tragic.

When I was younger I thought insurance was stupid, but as I've gotten a little older, I can't imagine getting a good nights sleep without it.

The answer is to start slow and cheap, build a 1/2A power glider and take your time. A spad is very fast and will really test a new pilot, get something that will not do much damage to anything if it gets away from you. Then work up to the bigger faster stuff.

There are some spads that fit the primary trainer slot, make one of them and increase the wing area. You can always build a smaller wing when you want to up the performance.

Just a thought,
MR Flyer57

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gr8johnson3,

Hey, welcome to the hobby. I have doing this for two years and remember the pains of waiting for an instructor and the money needed to get started out. Don't get unset with everyone's comments here. They are not aimed at you, they are aimed at the subject. Threads like this not only help you in seeing why there are do's and don'ts in this hobby, they help all the other beginners feeling the same way you did and are not brave enough to voice their veiw. So think of it this way you are helping alot of newbies by speaking up. And if deadsticking is all you need to learn to pass inspection, then you just about got this thing beat. Before you know it you will be deadsticking with the best of them. And with a SPAD, you can practice deadsticking without the worries of busting your plane up.

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gr8johnson3,

I don't think any less of you for wanting to go it alone, I understand, I've been there. Good luck, and be careful.

I do think you taking things a bit personally. I've never said you are a bad person or an ***** or anything. I just wanted to increase the odds that you'd learn to fly and avoid injuries to yourself or others. Just friendly advice, take it or leave it as you wish.

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oh no, i dont think you think i am a bad person. i am not taking this personal. i am laughing when i read this stuff. really, i do value everyones opinions. and advice. and i am not against ama and clubs. i just dont have another $100.00 for that stuff right now. its just everytime i suggest learning with the sim at a field by myself, i get a very negative response. its no big deal. i will join a club by summers end. i have never flown before, but i will learn how to.

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Check with the club and tell them your situation. They might let you pay in installments. I joined a club a year ago with the knowledge I was going to move a few months later. They let be pay per month until I had to leave. Great bunch of guys. Hated to have to leave them.

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If you just get your AMA, most clubs will let you fly as a guest for a while. Depending on how old you are, you might get a better rate too.

very new to this stuff.
 

Our club dues are extremely low for people under 18 and so is the AMA dues. If that is your only problem, and not equipment, then I think you might be pleasantly surprised with the cost.

We take into consideration that students and younger people have a much tighter budget, and don't try to exclude them for that reason. We are actively trying to get a younger set involved and don't want our field to look like a retirement home.

This hobby is top heavy as far as age goes, because when you retire you have a little cash and time together, sometimes for the first time.
We have made efforts at bringing in a younger crowd. The only catch is that our reduced price will not let you vote. But at only a dollar a year ( I think ), it is still a bargain.

MR Flyer57

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A dollar a week? Our dues are $30/year and less for kids.

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well i dont know if i gave the impression that i am a youngster or what. i am 36 years old. no, equipment isnt the problem. i spent all my friggen money on that. lol. its the ama dues and club dues. i have a spad trainer i just built with a .46 evolution engine. it is killing me not to fly it. but instead i fly my sim spad. i have about 15-20 hours on the sim. i am looking for a field that is not going to endanger or piss anyone off if i use it. what did i say that was making you think i was young?

very new to this stuff.
 

Wow, you got me, I thought you were young.

I hope you take that like the complement that it is.

Your old enough to take what ever chances you need to.

Most 36 year olds spend $4,000 on a four wheeler or a $15,000ski boat, if its a hundred bucks that is making the difference for you getting sued should be a high priority.

In the real world a $100 won't hardly get a good meal or a round of drinks.

A 36 year old will have the money to spend where he wants to.

I think you are of the group that can't justify paying out the nose for the privilege of a club or the overpriced AMA.

I have sympathy for that school of thought, but for me the chance of getting sued and paying for some unintentional injury is overwhelming.

Have fun and find a group that is flying without a field or AMA. They are out there and are lots of fun to fly with.

Be careful and watch for incoming stuff as well,
MR Flyer57