Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I am refering to the starting benches designed by the Meroke RC Club and published by AMA.
http://www.meroke.com/safetybench.htm
We have two of these and have been using them almost two years and have had two incidents.

The first was a pilot put down his ignitor, it started to roll, he reached for it and was nicked by the prop.
He admits it was his fault. It sent our safety officer into a tizzy and he wanted to do away with them.

The other day a prop came off and struck the pilot in the forhead. Luckily no serious injury.
Again the safety officer got into a tizzy and moved the benches off of the flight line and temporarily baned their use.
If the pilot had been on the ground the prop probably would not have bounced but there would have been rocks and dirt flying around.
One prop or a lot of grit, more chances to get into the eye, - which is more dangerous?
Leaning over and in front of the prop or just in front of it - which is more dangerous?

Has any one else had problems they relate to the benches? What did you do about them?
A couple of suggestions made were requiring safety glasses and carpeting the front of the bench to reduce bounce.
Both are good ideas, the safety glasses should already be required - bench or ground.
I always wear safety glasses when flying. I have worked in dangerous industries and had safety preached at me regularly.

Is our safety officer being over zelous? Am I being to cavalier?
I admit certain precautions need to be made with the benches but being erect instead of kneeling during a start up seems a lot safer to me, no matter what happens.

Thanks,
KW_Counter

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I don't see in either incident where the starting bench was the problem. In the first incident the operator put his hand to the prop to reach for something... This could have happened just the same on the ground for the same operator. In the second, the prop came off... The operator did not check the prop in pre-flight. If on the ground, the prop most likely would have bounced just the same. At my field the pits are paved, a wood bench would absorb more than pavement in this case. I think blaming the bench will solve nothing, and not using them opens up to many other potential hazards.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I agree, the safety bench is not the problem in either incident. I fly at fields with and without these safety benches, and I believe these benches make starting your aircraft much safer and easier. It sounds like your "safety" officer just doesn't like safety benches for some reason!

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Tell your safety officer he needs to stay home because he could possibly have an accident on the way to the field. Oh wait, he could slip in the bathroom so he should just stay in bed.

Tell the guy to get a life. Those "incidents" you described could happen anywhere, whether it's on the starting bench or not. Those starting benchs are some of the best things I have seen to improve field safety in a long time. I wish every club out there would start using these benches.

Ken

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Ditto. Ditto, and DITTO

Sounds like you have an over-zealous Safety Officer.

My club is very small, so we don't have a lot of hard rules. We don't even have a Safety Officer. But we DO use common sense.

Any time an engine is running, we make people who are standing in the immediate area move to a place BEHIND the prop.

I mean really, is it too hard to figure out that if a prop lets go it's going to move forward out out to the side?

No one is going to get upset if you say, "Hey Joe, step back here before I rev this thing up" (Unless of course, his name isn't Joe :D )

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Our club has eight benches, all flat top. Each flyer is responsible for their own restraint system. Some guy have their own PVC stands with a cradle that fits their plane. Some have hardwood/PVC platforms fit to individual planes that they clamp to the bench. I'm of a school of using parachute cord looped arond a top board of the bench and looped over the tail feathers. Some guys us a similar cord/rope restraint, but use a bench leg for a restraint anchor. I guess there are some issues with each of these setups. I still think a benche is the best in terms of safety. We also have four portable cradles set in 5 gal pails of concrete. They have an adjustable cradle, both length and width. We use the round swim noodles for padding. I first used these, but they were a real pain. Oily and the swim noodles would break down in the sun after a few months.

I'll bet all of you have seen some of the older guys, like me, getting down on their hands and knees to start a plane and then wobble and have dificulitites getting back on their feet again. I've seen a lot of these ground starters, lean over the prop to tune. I even saw one guy loose his balance getting up and stiffarmed the fuselage.

The only issue I've seen with bench top starting is getting the plane free of the restraints. I've had my cord snag in the tail wheel and when I started to walk away from the bench, it yanked me back. After a couple times, I got the idea it would be good to make sure the cord was clear before lifting the plane. I've seen some of the custom fit cradles stick to the sides of the fuse and the pilot had to force the running plane from the cradle.

The bottom line is that you have to be safety consous as an individual. Club rules alone will not ensure safety unless you have a safety officer in place for every pilot at the field.

Don

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Wow..

Ask your safety officer how exactly these benches contributed to the incidents. Ask him to consider how much worse they COULD have been if on the ground and unrestrained?

I'm the new kid on the block so to speak, but I have fired my plane up both with a bench just like those and without. My lil' old .46FX powered trainer is down right scary to be infront of when I dont have the safety bench holding her back. (Held byhand in other words.)

We use them exclusively at our field, and I am glad of it.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

The vast majority of our local flyers would in fact be shut down if they could not use starting tables period and if forced to the ground the accidents would then really start adding up.

We use a combination of that table type and some of us the gympy ones use plain wire spool tables for starting, in my case in the wheelchair I use a carefully rehersed methods and special shot filled sand bags along with a helper well versed in my routines. The So called safety type are also fine for some however one problem that seems to precipitate many of the incidents is inadaquate table space for things like the starter, ignitor and tx. We just added four bigger ones that address that issue far better.

John

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

If you try to make something foolproof, someone will make a better fool.

We use the benches at our field, and we love them.

Brad

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

There's nothing I like about those benches. If you try to sit on the sides, they tip over. There's no good place to put anything, and some planes don't fit well. Large planes don't fit at all. People run their engines on them for breakin and leave oil all over them. I prefer to work on the ground.

Having said that... the benches had nothing to do with the incidents described.

Dave Olson

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Murphy's Laws on Technology.
Make something foolproof and only a fool will use it!!!! ;)

Ken

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

[/quote]


Make something foolproof and only a fool will use it!!!! ;)

Ken


[/quote]

Hey, I resemble that remark :D

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

We have 9 at our airfield and use them religiously. They are the best thing in the world to start your plane with. I have no idea why your Safety Officer thinks the stands have something to do with the accidents. Has anyone noticed if he gets off of a yellow short bus when he gets to the field? Good grief that is the silliest thing I have heard in a while. Next thing he will think they cause planes to crash.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

"Who put that gosh darn stand right where I was landing!"[>:]:eek: Who knows, maybe they are unsafe. The debris from the bench/plane could hit someone, and everyone knows if it had not been there, then he would of been able to land dead center of the runway.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

A friend of mine did EXACTLY that but his nick was 18 stitches.

No reason to eliminate NiCad glow-drivers, though. These things happen. ;-) I use a field-box 12v wired plug-in glow driver. :D

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Did you ever stick one in you pocket, the one with the keys. Gets warm doesn't it.:eek:

I quit using the sticks and went to the power pannel driver instead. I got all the way to the flight line a couple times with the big blue stick still on the engine. At least with the power pannel driver, the wires hold you back. Maybe.

Yep, guys run there engine on the bench and leave oil all over it. They run them on the ground and and leave oil all over the ground also. At least I don't step in the oil on the bench.:)

Don

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I don't like the bench. My Nexstar doesn't fit all that well on it; the dihedral nearly clears the top of the wing stops, and the mains just fit on the platform. It looks like at least our bench was designed with a tail dragger in mind. The first time I got to the field I was working on the bench, and thought 'oh, how nice, a bench.' I put my plane on it, went to my car to get something, and the wind nearly blew my plane off the bench.

I work on the ground, with a tether if I'm doing something more than just starting my plane. My plane can't fall off the ground.

Will second what's been said above though, the bench wasn't necessarily the problem in the cases cited.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I like the benches, but that's just me. The main thing is, maintain control of your aircraft at all times. Whatever starting routine you develop.

Personal responsibility is a good thing.

Oly

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Wow,

Seems like both sides of the fence here, but at least we all agree the bench had nothing to do with those incidents.

I will say, the ones we use must be modified from the original design because I have seen planes from my .40 sized trainer all the way up to a 3d monster with a Saito 1.0+ on it and they all fit well enough, the wing stops are plenty high on all but one, though the tail area could be wider.

As for sitting on em and having them tip, well they aren't really designed for people to sit on, only airplanes. That said I have to admit to nearly toppling myself and one at our field a couple times from taking the convenient spot to plant my butt.

They do get oily, but would you rather be walking in the stuff?? (we've paved runway taxiways and pit area)

All in all, to each his own and so long as we keep it safe and have fun who's to say who's method is better?

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Regarding no place to put anything, I've seen them modified with a slanted board on the front of one of the wings to hold the transmitter during starting. And in reality, I like the concept of not having anywhere to put anything, because it keeps me from putting anything in the way of the prop wash. JMHO.

We have recognized the need for some regular tables in the pits for the Heli guys.

Brad

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

No place to put stuff? I've found them to be just the opposite. We added the side boards to hang radios, and they also aid in positioning the starter box on top of the hanging field box (see photo). True, you can't sit on them while there's a plane in position, but then they aren't made to be seats! You can easily sit on an empty bench, though.

Large planes don't fit at all? If you have giant scale planes, then build the version for those planes. Even the smaller planes fit fine on the giant scale bench, you just have to bend over about 7" more to start the plane. I've used both standard and giant scale version of the safety benches, and they work great.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Ah... you forgot a trash can!! :D

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Wow, this is facinating.

First I agree with all of the above posters, the benches had nothing to do with the mishaps.

Your safety officer, apparently has no quaifications, or common sense to be your safety officer. We'd call him a safety natzi.

Our field has never used starting stands, even the oldest of us start on the ground. Again using some form of safety hold back. The few times we have a handicapped member, one of the heathier members ususally help them out with starting and taxing.

I've seen these stands at the RC field in Anchorage, but I've never used one.

Feel free to show this one to your safety officer if you'd like

Thomas Solinski
Former Systems Safety Officer for the C/KC-135 fleet and the Presidential Aircraft Fleet
Former Ground Safety Officer 507th Combat Logistics Support Squadron.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Sounds to me like your Safety Officer is looking to justify the position ;)

Don't get me wrong, our hobby/sport needs safety officers and periodic reminders around the safe handling of our airframes. I believe in your specific example the "problem" lies with the individuals, not the benches. A bit of "Safety101" remedial education from your Safety Officer is what I believe was called for instead of a potential ban of the safety benches. Maybe a safety session at your next club meeting is in order???

Regardless, we have 3 of those benches at our club and they are always in use (5 pilot stations in total). As far as I'm concerned they are fantastic and are very safe. What makes them less safe is "unsafe" use (standing beside the running prop, adjusting the needle in front of the plane, etc.).

Good luck counseling your Safety Officer. :D

-MA

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

We have similar benches at one field and i agree, they are not that great. Put a true low wing taildragger with a lot of power and the plane will tip over forwards at full throttle. Scared the crap out of me the first time it did that. I now only work from the ground.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

The solution to that problem is to pull up elevator while you go full throttle. You'll have that problem with any sort of wing hold-back, on the bench or on the ground. I don't like tail holdbacks, since the tail of the plane is not usually as strong as the wing. Even on the ground, I use long stakes for wing holdbacks.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Imagine starting a 60 size plane on the ground. You are a bit tired, the engine has been giving you trouble, your grip on the fuselage/wing is less than perfect, you don't notice the throttle is wide open. You hit it with the starter. The outcome can be awful. This will never happen to you, right? The safety stand automatically can prevent this accident. If you must personally experience this accident before you believe it can happen to you, well good luck. Our club has ten of these stands. I enjoyed redesigning the Merkon stand. Our design can be downloaded from our website at http://www.wilsonrc.org. I started engines off the ground for many years and always saw a danger. First time I saw these safety stands I knew that was a safer/better way. There is still a danger, though. Gives others a chance to argue.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I'm very new to flying, only had two training sessions so far. That said, we have four benches at our field and are full most of the time. I am on crutches and couldn't work on the ground if I wanted to. I move a chair out to the pilot area as I'm limited to how long I can stand on a bad knee. Club members are great and help me enjoy the sport a lot. My point is, some of us folks can't work on the ground and need the benches. I learned a few years ago (the hard way) on a friends plane to get behind a running engine to remove glow-driver and make adjustments. Accidents do occur and we need to use our heads and learn from them. I'm done ranting now.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I've been trying to talk our club into putting up safety benches.

The usual response I recieve is, "people shouldn't be starting their planes on a table".

Unfortunately that's exactly what they do, because there are no safety benches around, particularly the older guys...

When I point this out, all I get is a "they should stop this practice"... uhm ok... but all of the training instructors do exactly the same thing.

The problem is that most of the club officers fly larger scale planes 33% up planes, so they are disinterested in the needs of the smaller plane flyers.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I built these stand from scrap lumber from the house being built next door.
Just build a couple and take them aout there and start using it.
People were aprehensive when they first arrived. Soon they were being used regularly.

Thanks for all of the input,
KW_Counter

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

there is nothing wrong with the benches. Our club has about 8 of these. We have been using them for at least 5 years. They are great! Sounds like both accidents occured because we didn't use common sense. Never, ever stand inline with the propeller arc. If that prop breaks and you are inline you are going to get hit. What are the chances that it hits the bench and bounces up and hits the pilot? In the first incident, you should always walk behind the plane to remove the glow stick. In regards to taildraggers, I always hold up elevator when running up the engine to keep the tail down. I also grab the fuse from behind when running up the engine just to be sure. Common sense fella's, you can't buy it, you are born with it!

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

:D
Yes that will work but it is very hard to tune the engine and hold up elev at the same time.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I've wondered about doing just that.

I could pre-assemble the major pieces and just "drop it off" one day when no-one is around... then see the results.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Hi RVman
How do you manage to safely hold your plane on the ground, go to full throttle, and safely tune the engine? Ever have it at full throttle when the engine started? Yes, it is stupid to do that. I have only done it twice. Fortunately I had the plane on a safety stand.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I tune mine on the stand all the time. I start the plane at half throttle, walk around to the side of the plane and put one hand on the plane to hold the back down, the use the other hand to push the TX stick to full throttle (TX is hanging on the stand as in the photo in previous post), and then use that same hand to tune the needle valve. One hand is always on the plane while the other is tuning the needle valve and adjusting the throttle stick. Not difficult, and the plane is at a very convenient height for tuning.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

Take a length of soft cotton rope with you. Loop it under the stand and over the fuselage near the tail. Tie it loosely and use the throttle all you want. Don't forget to remove the rope before picking up the plane. Simple and safe.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I hold the plane with at the tail with my left hand and i tune with my right. I'll just say that use whatever method your comfortable with is best. I am not comfortable with a table so I don't use the table. There isn't a single best/safest way for every plane or person.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

I watch guys, both on the ground and on the bench hold the plane with their left hand and hit to starter to the spinner with their right. I do it. The difference is that some of them do it without any restraint. Scares the hell out of me. Good judgement comes from experience, Experience comes from bad judgment. Lets hope the leaning path is smooth. As a kid, "Mom, how come I have to learn things the hard way". Needless to say I've travled a rough path.

Don

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

we had an incident at the field... this man was starting his has gasser by hand and it kicked in backwars and his plane rolled backwards off the stand...the3 safety officer pointed out that starting an engine should be a two man job......since then i have never seen his planes on a stand.

RE: Starting Bench Safety Issues
 

especially if the plane is oily