DrMotor

USER COMMENTS INDICATING THAT E-F TORQUE, HYPERION-Z,SONIC ELECTRIC AND HACKER,ARE THE SAME MOTOR, FROM THE SAME FACTORY:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1169453
cryhavoc38: " ... Just received my Sonic Electric motor.
Funny thing is. The box and foam material are exactly like what the older Hyperion motors came in. Wonder if the previous model (rev) of the Hyperions comes from the same factory ..."

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...1169453&page=4
Extreme Flight Torque motors without the extreme flight torque price ( -SONIC ELECTRIC motors).
Dr Kiwi: States about: Sonic Electric SE-2813-1020 That it is the " .. same motor as" the Torque 20T motor ..."
" ... By that inscription it seems it is the same factory which makes the Torque motors! They are the only ones I've seen inscribed that way ..."

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...1169453&page=4
Fourdan: Re: Sonic and Torque motors: - "and now who is the chinese manufacturer ?"

cryhavoc38: "The same one who makes these for Lipotech and inscribes their numbers and name on the motor"

Fourdan: "... I was thinking that Hacker, Hyperion (old Z), Torque are made by the same chinese factory. So may be we could add Lipotech and Sonic Electric ? ..."

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1370383
Torque/Airboss Clones at Sonic??
Dr Kiwi: " ... We think they may be from the one factory ..."

wwwedfhobbies

so you are saying that China Topband makes the 4000 and 4800kv edf motor? Then that means they make the black tornado sapac as well? Correct? Also then who makes the 3200MB1 sapac?

DrMotor

Yes. For instance, the Topband AE2815D-01A is a 71g EDF motor with a Kv of 4800
see: http://www.xc-rc.com.au/index.php?ma...roducts_id=572

I guess so ... -I am not an "expert" in EDF motors -I only have myself, one 90mm EDF plane with a Leopard 4082 motor.
However, Topband DO make both 64mmand 70mm EDF motors - http://www.topbandmotor.com/en/chi/p...=164&comid=113

Sapac/Global Fly "Black Tornado", 4800KV, 58g, D28L30, for 64mm fans (also called a "2830-1000") (pic1) - http://edfhobbies.com/index.php?rout...product_id=151
-seems like it has to be one of the 58g 2810 Topband EDF motors e.g. Topband AE2810D-01E, 59g, has a Kv of 4900 (pic 2).
This is almost identical to the Sapac Black Tornado 4800KV motor, I think.

Anyway, it seems clear that Topband make a huge and enormous range of motors -and the motors shown on the Topband website are probably just the tip of the iceberg. For instance, in the "2810" airplane range, Topband make at least 10 motors, all with slightly different Kv's (-reminds me of the Exceed-RC "Rocket" range at Hobbpartz ).
Topband can probably produce a motor with any Kv that is asked for ... -They could almost certainly make a tiny change to the Topband AE2810D-01E to give it a Kv of 4800, instead of 4900 ...

Sapac/GlobalFly "Tornado MB1", 3200kv, 118g, D28 L42, for 70mm fans -also has"2842 MB1" on the can (pic3) - http://edfhobbies.com/index.php?rout...product_id=194 & also: http://edfhobbies.com/index.php?rout...product_id=150
-Has a very similar appearance to the Exceed-RC Optima 70mm EDF motor -which has Kv of 2700 - http://www.hobbypartz.com/75m96-ducted-2220-2700.html -and this Optima motor is made by Topband -So if this is made by Topband, then the Sapac/GlobalFly "Tornado MB1" is almost certainly made by Topband.
Also the Sapac/GlobalFly "Tornado MB1" has an identical appearance to the Topband AE2820D-01B 70mm EDF motor - http://www.topbandmotor.com/en/chi/p...=248&comid=113

Can also see Topband EDF motors on the XC-RC website (pic 4) - http://www.xc-rc.com.au/index.php?ma...ex&cPath=92_95
-These also look identical to the Sapac/GlobalFly "Tornado MB1" motor

It seems almostcertain thatthe Sapac/GlobalFly "Tornado MB1" must be made by Topband -it is just one of their 28mm diam motors, made with a 42mm length, and made so that it has a Kv of 3200.

HiModel also show a "SAPAC / GlobalFly 2842 3200KV EDF motor for 70mm fans" -they quote motor weight as 110g
http://www.himodel.com/plane/SAPAC_G...ess_motor.html
-and I guess this will also be the same as the Sapac "Tornado MB1" motor.

Hope this helps

NOTE: CANNOT UPLOAD PICS -GETTING THE OLD "500 - Internal server error. There is a problem with the resource you are looking for, and it cannot be displayed" MESSAGE ...

DrMotor

HAVE RECEIVED THIS MESSAGE:

DrMotor

Just twigged -that of course you must be EDF HOBBIES ...! - http://edfhobbies.com/
-4144 Justin Dr Ft. Worth Tx 76244 USA

-And I have of course, used links to your website in the previous post about Sapac motors ...
Since you are a model business and specialists in EDF, I would expect you to know much more than me,about where these motors are made ... ?
Cheers Mate

DrMotor

Let us welcome: BOOST MOTORS to the "Sunray Motor Club" ...

These BOOST motors come from:PICHLERin Germany- http://www.pichler.de/shop/catalog/i...p?cPath=36_136
In the UK, they are sold by Robotbirds - http://robotbirds.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=56_551
" ... Designed in Germany, these motors will appeal to all modellers seeking the highest technical standards for top performance, strength and sustained reliability provided by other quality brands like Hyperion and Hacker ..."
" ... this unique design has an open structure that forces the airflow directly to the stator and windings to maximise heat dissipation ..."

Of course, you can see yourself that these motors have a very strong resemblance indeed to Hyperion motors. -They certainly have the "general look" of a Sunray Technology -made motor
And of course, these BOOST motors definitely ARE made by our very favourite brushless motor factory -SUNRAY TECHNOLOGY ..!
( -And this has been confirmed officially, by Robotbirds themselves ... -So there can be no doubt about this ... )

The BOOST motors are named with respect to their equivalent IC power level e.g Boost 30, Boost 120 ...

The BOOST range of motors, goes from a 49g Kv1400 motor (Boost 10), up to a VERY large 1150g Kv185 80mm diam motor (Boost 180 -a real beast of a motor ...) - http://www.heliplane.net/2012/02/pic...ushless-motor/
-These BOOST motors look very beautiful (especially the large 80mm diam motors) and look very well engineered.

PRICES:
As you can see from below, the BOOST 25 -49 EUR(=$63.24) isEXACTLY the samemotor as:Hacker A30-16 M-£60.89(=$92.57)

The BOOST 60 -89EUR(=$114) isEXACTLYthe same motor as Hacker A50-12 S -£60.89(=$173.32)(-same price all over Europe)

So: BOOST motors are 65% of the cost of the same-size and identical Hacker motor ..


CANNOT UPLOAD MOTOR PICS -RCU SYSTEM NOT WORKING ...

DrMotor

BOOST MOTORS
The information below, shows for just a few BOOST motors, that their weight, Kv etc are identical to: Hacker, Torque, Turnigy SK3, Hyperion, LiPolice, Foxy, motors etc etc
Because they fit in so very well with all other "Sunray brand" motors, it is very easy for us to see that they must be made by the Sunray Tech factory ...

-This shows us, for some of the BOOST motors, which other "Sunrise brand" motors they are equivalent to: i.e. If you want a motor the same size as the Hacker A50-12 S, which is a 345g motor with a Kv of 492 -Then you would go for the BOOST 60, which is also 345g, and also has a Kv of 490 ...
Of course, underneath the outer shell,the BOOST 60 is EXACTLY the same motor as the Hacker A50-12 S ...

NOTE: BOOST motors are only 65% of the cost of the same-size and identical Hacker motor ...

28mm Ext Diam Motors
BOOST 10, 49g,Kv 1400=APACHE APM20-22T 1400 Kv

BOOST 15, 59g,Kv 1000=Hacker A20-20 L-EVO, Kv 1022, 20T =Torque 20T/1030=Turnigy SK3 2830-1020kv, 20T =HYPERION Z2213-20T 1025KV

BOOST 18, 76g,Kv 1050=Torque 2830T/1095, Kv 1095, 30T =APACHE APS30-30T 1070 kV =PA Thrust A20, Kv1030

37mm Ext Diam Motors
BOOST 25, 110g,Kv 980=Hacker A30-16 M V2, Kv 1060, 16T =Turnigy SK3 3536-1050kv, 16T =HYPERION Z3013-16T 985KV

BOOST 30, 160g,Kv 1130=Hacker A30-8 XL V2, Kv 1100, 8T =Turnigy SK3 3548-1050kv, 8T =WAYPOINT-E3026-10 1039Kv

50mm Ext Diam Motors
BOOST 50, 295g,Kv 600=Hacker A50-14 XS V2, Kv 564,14T =Torque 4014T/570 Kv 570, D50 L47 =Foxy C4020/14 550Kv

BOOST 60, 345g,Kv 490=Hacker A50-12 S V2,Kv 492, 12T =LiPolice LP-4025 /12T-510KV =HYPERION Z4025 12T 486KV

BOOST 90, 455g,Kv 300=Hacker A50-14 L V2,Kv 300, 14T = LiPolice LP-4035 /14T-310KV =Foxy C4035/14 310Kv

rosnik

Hi DrMotor,
can you get your opinion about Motrolfly DM4315 kv714 or Kv480 ?

thank you.

DrMotor

RECEIVED THIS MESSAGE:
I do very much indeed appreciate messages like this.
They give encouragement, when others simply try and brush off the very clear facts and evidence being presented as " ... just a load of claptrap ..." or " ... this is a .. bizarre quest to prove sub par motors are the same as quality ones ..."
-Actually, all of what I present is completely true; and I am not on some "quest about sub-par motors" ... -far from it ...

DrMotor

Hello rosnik, it is very good indeed to hear from you.
You and I have discussed Motrolfly motors before -we discussed the DM 3615 750Kvmotor.
The good thing about Motrolfly motors is that they have a larger diameterand are shorter in length than other types of motors. And some people think that this makes the motor perform better because it keeps the stator closer to the magnets, because the stator has little chance to "rock around" on the shorter shaft; In comparison to a motor with a much longer shaft and smaller diameter stator, which might well "rock around" on the shaft at one end, and perhaps because of this perform less well:
e.g. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=4209
Re: 30-size motors: " ... Regardless of brand anything, over 20mm long stator seems to be potentially problematic on motors with a 5mm shaft. The long can and stator lead to magnet to stator contact and high stress in the stator tube. I now favour motors that are short and larger diameter. That's where the Motrolfly DM3615 scores, it's got a 15mm long stator and a short 6mm dia shaft. ..."

So: the Motrolfly DM 4315 motor you mention, has a 4315 stator, and may be good in this respect. It is 280g, D55 L42; 6mm shaft;
-It is in the same weight range as a: Hacker A50-14 XS V2 -which is the same motor as a Torque 4014T/570, LiPolice LP-4020 /14T-550KV and HYPERION Z4020 14T etc etc.

http://www.motrolfly.com/product.asp?lb=47 -for some reason, this particular 4315 motor is not shown on Motrolfly website

http://www.scmodels.com.au/electric-motors/index.html:
DM4315-714KV is for 4S LiPo; DM4315-480KV is for 6S LiPo

See: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1515376 -Motrolfly 4315-500kv; LOTS and lots of info here

http://shop.subsonicplanes.com/product.sc?productId=348
Motrolfly Brushless Motor DM 4315 $124.95
Motor Design: -Basic Version -Light Aluminum Mount (+$2.95) -Light Fiberglass Mount (+$6.95)
Select: 300Kv 380Kv 480Kv 500Kv 668Kv 714Kv 780Kv

So: Seem to be3 types of mount, and7 different Kv's for this motor ...!
-It is not a cheap motor ... but may be a good one.

Have you got a plane in mind for this motor ...? Extreme Flight MXS perhaps ?

rosnik

Thank you for your always kind replay DrMotor.

About Motrolfly motors the interesting thing , getting them in paragon to all standard B. motors,
is exactly the fact that they got larger diameter and the shorter in length rotors.
This,
You can sure teach to me ,
improve torque and one bit penalize consumption.
More torque , mean that Motrolfly motors can flip larger props.
I think ( IMO ),
the future of the brushless motors for RC planes , will be in this direction.

Interesting is the fact they are not made on the 'usual' China factories, like all B. .

About my in build MXS EF unfortunately I bought one Hacker already 2 moths ago,
before read this tread!

DrMotor

rosnik, you may be interested in these:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1823519 "Motrolfly DM4315-500 vs Torque Revolution 4016T/500" -Feb 2013

Worth noting: Torque 4016T/500 (280g) is EXACT SAME motor as: Hacker A40-10 L V2, Kv 500, 10T =Turnigy SK3 4250-500kv, 10T =PA Thrust 50, 487Kvsee: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11428699

-Above RCG thread says: Motrolflys are extremely popular
many run the Motrolfly 4315-480Kv with 16" props.
The Motrolfly runs very cool compared to others
These Hacker and Torque motors are often used with 14", 15" props -however they have a higher Kv.
The Hacker A40-14 L , Kv 355, 14T -has a lower Kv, and will swing a larger prop ...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1638706 "MOTROLFLY 4315 500kv, Torque 4016T-500, or similar" -April 2012

http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=73519 "Hacker Vs. Motrolfly" -May 2012
-Hacker is a good motor, but they like Motrolfly better (this link name, which is blocked by RCU -is FG )

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...533887&page=63

AS FAR AS MOTOR TORQUE IS CONCERNED:
Hacker publicity / marketing / hot airALWAYS states:
"... The Hacker ... A- *** ... ... This 14 pole, Outrunner design creates MASSIVE TORQUE, therefore larger direct drive props can be used without the need for a gearbox ..."
e.g. https://www.aero-model.com/8_67_887/...-10L%20V2.html

-Perhaps Hacker motors really WOULD create "MASSIVE TORQUE"-if they had a design like Motrolfly, with a larger diam and shorter length stator ...

DrMotor

USER COMMENTS SHOWING THAT APACHE, E-F TORQUE, AND HACKER -ARE THE SAME MOTOR, AND ARE MADE IN THIE SAME FACTORY:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=929106
Apache APM30-18T Motor
dashunde: "... It looks identical to my Torque 2818/900... Fantastic motor ... Nearly indestructable ..."
Three-Wire: "...This motor arrived on the scene about the same time as the Hacker A-series outrunners and Torque outrunners ..."

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=405304
Apache Out Runner Motors?
MAKODS: " ... I came across an outrunner called the Apache at www.parkflyermotors.com ..."
ozace: " ... that is the same as the Hacker "A" series motors. You can find them in asia as well, usually at better prices than the hacker branded ones, some even come in the hacker purple ..."

DrMotor

INTERESTING COMMENT:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2428
makeitworst: "... "brand name" motors are the same as the nameless ones from the very same factories. I know this because I import the same motors from China and talk with most of the factories. The factory management loves to "brag" about who they make for ...
... The biggest fakers are Scorpion and Hacker, because they do very little to hide their version from the unbranded motor which you can buy right from the factory ..."

I am not sure he is correct about Scorpion, however ...


Rest of thread is: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...31597&page=162

DrMotor

In post #72 & #73 of this thread, we discussed KMS Quantum and AXI motors - http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11457362
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11456017
-Here are some more relevant comments:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_66...tm.htm#6692763
avalentine: " ... The KMS Quantum 2208/09 is almost a direct copy of the AXI 2208/20. I picked one up at hobby people for $32. I have 3 different Quantum motors and they have all worked great for me ..."

http://www.sloughrc.com/default.asp?...=M-KMSQ2208/09
KMS Quantum 2208/09 Motor
44g Kv 1920Diam (D) 28, Length (L) 26, LiPo: 2-3 cells Power: 100-150W

http://www.modelmotors.cz/index.php?...e=20&line=GOLD
AXI 2208/20 GOLD LINE
45g Kv 1820 Diam 28, Length 26 No. of cells 2 - 3 Li-Pol

These 2 motors are indeed very very similar ...

And also: AXI 2820 motors, also have a very similar Kv range to KMS Quantum 2820 motors .....

DrMotor

Here is post #29 from, RCU "Electric Pattern Aircraft" section - http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11468377
Hennnig, It might be best to understand some very simple facts here:
-Hacker is just a Re-brander, Nothing more, nothing less..

Hacker is just a re-brander, just like ALLthe others. Everything else is just marketing and publicity,it is just a rather huge load of very hot air.

Hacker is just one of 30 or 40 or 50 customers of the the very large and very major OEM company called SunRay Technology.
That is all it is. Just like Hyperion is another customer,Schweighofer is just another customer,Shulman Aviation is another customer,Extreme Flight is another customer, Gens Ace is yet another customer ...

Hacker has played a very large and very very successful con-trick on all of us, it has completely fooled all of us, into making us think that their purple colour motors are somehow different from other green or pink or yellow or black or orange motors.

Very very simply, Hacker just buy their motors from SunRay Technology in a purple colour. Hyperion get blue, Torque get red, and Gens Ace get green ... etc etc etc
All the other 30 or 40 or 50 OEM customers of SunRay Technology get their motors in a slighty different outside colour, and sometimes with slightly different styled endhousings. - That is it. There is nothing more complicated than this.
-SunRay Tech is just a very very large OEM company, that makes their motors for many tens of OEM customers -and the basic motor used, under the diffferent colourouter wrapping of each brand, is EXACTLYthe same underneath for ALL the 30 or 40 different brands..

-IF Hacker really DID have some ownership over the design of these motors, and its own "engineers" were involved, then of course these motors would not appearunder 30 or 40 different brand names. -They would ONLY appear under the Hacker brand name.
-In reality, there are no "Hacker engineers" involved at all, and Hacker has not contributed to the design of these motors at all. It is ALL Sunray Tech.

-The ONLY thing Hacker has the ownership of, is the purple colour on the outside of the motor.
-And also: The fact that their motors, which are identical to ALL the others, cost 4 or 5 times as much as some of the other totally IDENTICAL motors (i.e Hyperion-Z, LiPolice, Turnigy SK3, and others ...)
-So: The "R&D" of these "Sunray" motors, can be nothing at all to do with Hacker ... And it never was ...

The internal working parts of ALL Hacker outrunner motors -except perhaps for ones like the more special Q80 ...
-Are completely and totally IDENTICAL to: Torque, Z-series Hyperion;Turnigy SK3 motors; and Shulman Aviation FURY, Gens Ace, Common-Sense-RC, LiPolice, OK Hobby Infinite, Pelikan Foxy,Apache, Pilotage Nova-Line, Sonic Electric, BMI Models "Spitz" motors, Precision Aerobatics Thrust motors, Waypoint E-series motors, Viper VA, Boost motors(from Pichler -sold by Robotbirds in UK), Lipotech, MegaPower Taurus, JP E-Pro motors; ELE motors (now discontinued):

There are 25 different brands there, to be going on with -until we find more ....

da Rock

DrMotor,
Really?

You know all this insider info how?

It's one thing to know a motor is manufactured by a specific company, but to know all the detail you're throwing out would not be possible for the average internet scanner.

How do you know Hacker (your latest topic) doesn't specify higher (or lower) delivery thresholds of quality or performance? How do you know anything about any of what you've just thrown out?

To even suggest that every motor for all the brands are identical presents an impossible premise. Yeah, they all may come from the same location, but you can bet every retailers contract is probably different and the quality the manufacturer delivers does too.

I bought some small motors recently from a hong kong based retailer. They were recommended by a couple of flying buddies. The guys also recommended I buy a couple of each because that retailer often sold stuff that "might have problems, but the price was excellent". I got 3 motors and 3 escs. Only one combination worked out of 9 combinations. I'm pretty sure those motors and escs were made by a mfg that makes a lot of other brands for other retailers. From what I could see of the stuff I've purchased over the years, that HK junk shared some parts with better quality brands.

Retailers have been know to establish quality levels in contracts. They've also been known to test and reject shipments. They often figure into their asking price the cost of testing and rejects. More often than not, your average internet posters aren't going to be privy to those details.

I'd bet and give odds the HK junk came from a mfg that makes lots better stuff for higher quality retailers. But then, I don't think there is going to be any reputable judge available to call the bet and designate the winner, because inside knowledge of the chinese industry would be required. You know anyone with that knowledge?

rem0.061

My Feedback: (30)

A little off topic, but does anyone know who makes the SSS inrunners found on HOR racing? I found that they come from china.

DrMotor

INFORMATION FROM "makeitworst":
I just read again the post made by makeitworst, on RCG in May 2010: Here is the full version:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2428
makeitworst : " ... There is a real misconception of motor reliability based on the brand name on the motor. For those that don't know, 90% of all RC Brushless motors are made in China and those "brand name" motors are the same as the nameless ones from the very same factories. I know this because I import the same motors from China and talk with most of the factories. The factory management loves to "brag" about who they make for and disguise with "rebranding" or private branding with cosmetic changes when the orders are big enough.

Here are some examples:
The biggest fakers are Scorpion and Hacker, because they do very little to hide their version from the unbranded motor which you can buy right from the factory or Hobby Chitty. These are made by KEDA Model of Changsha City China ... and guess what, they also make all the Hackers!! You can buy the exact same Scorpion or Hacker motor unbranded for 1/3 the cost right from the factory or a dealer in Shanghai or HK. (I import BOTH unbranded).

XYH makes many of the United Hobby (HobbyKing) motors, most notably the Gold Turnigy and Turnigy SK series motors (excellent motors!), but XYH also makes the EFlite and KMS motors with some cosmetic casting and color changes. I also buy right from XYH (both of the Turnigy types) but I can't get them in gold or Silver/Black since United Hobby has those "appearance" exclusives (I get blue and mate blue/silver). You'll also see those same Turnigy's at various US Online dealers in Purple, Red and Green!! Check out HeadsUpRc.com, he's a friend. BTW, XYH makes motors for a lot of the other companies too as they are the biggest manufacturer in China ... and the best.

Dynamo branded brushless motors are actually Suppo made motors, which you can get anywhere, try BPHobbies for 1/2 price Suppo's (Dynamo) motors.

ESC's are the same. Hobby Wing is the largest manufacturer of Speed Controllers, their other brand is EMax, but they make ESC's for probably 60% of everybody else.

All is not what it appears to be .... "

Well, you might expect that makeitworst really ought to know, if he used to import some motors ...
-However, he is DEFINITELYNOT correct about KEDA making Hacker motors now; KEDA might have done 10 years ago, but for at least the last 7 or 8 years it has been SUNRAY TECHNOLOGY. I know, because I have had commercial contacts myself, with Sunray Technology.

makeitworst also states that the XYH-EMP factory make E-Flite motors, and also KMS motors. It is not impossible they make E-Flite, but somehow I doubt it. It looks very much like it must be the HiMark factory (a.k.a. ChinaHimark) that make the E-Flite motors;And also E-Flite motors are so similar to Himax, JP-Energ, TopModel X-Power, and HiMark own brand motors. -This is not consistent with XYH making E-Flite motors.
However, I guess it is possible that XYH might have taken over the HiMark company, and that they may possibly now be all one bigcompany ...

Which factory makes KMS motors, we do not know; However there seems to be a connection between the "Mystery" company and KMS motors -from: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11456017
-And many of the Mystery brand motors are made by XYH (as well as by other companies e.g. Suppo). So it could certainly be possible that that XYH makes the KMS motors,as makeitworst has stated in his post.

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Ok, this has gone on long enough. Threads such as these are here to discuss issues such as this. But since it has become apparent to me that some members can't discuss matters in a civil and mature manner I have little choice but to close down this thread.