stickman/vic

My Feedback: (85)

To Andy I'd have to say who among us builds a plane EXACTLY to the plans? I certainly don't I've always put my little tweeks into it so I can call it all mine. Of course it's best to use the designers CG and planform but honestly do I really need to put wing tips on? More importantly, if I scratch a plane, why can't I change the moment if I know I'm moving weight to a different area of the plane? Stickman/vic

dphill2

My Feedback: (1)

Guy's Back in the day it was just Pattern flying !!! There was no such thing as BPA,SPA or CPA.
We flew these planes untill AMA changed the rules sometime in the 80's
and went to Turnaround pattern.
Everything done now is just what part of that era the group wants it to be.
I flew pattern for about 10 years in the 70'd to early 80's and my first Novice airplane had a pipe and retracks. I would say 95% of the planes flying back then had P & RT with a small part of the pilots that could never make them work and did not like the extra work it took.
To me I always loved seeing how sleek,smooth and fast those old birds looked with the gear up and the motor singing about 17 thou.
This is the part that has been left out for some that were never a part of Just Pattern flying
Dp2

AndyKunz

Do you call it an "X" or say something like "Well, I started with an X, but then I changed this and that?"

Changing wing tips, mods to construction, etc. are common. Adding 10% here or there and saying "It's an X so I can fly it in a nostalgia event" is just a little hard for me. IMHO, building a design at 75% (convert it from .60 to .45) and calling it a "75% X" is more true to the original than changing other parameters 10% and saying it's the same thing.

But that's just me, and you guys have a ball with what you're doing because every little bit helps, so more power to ya!

Andy

eness76-RCU

My Feedback: (13)

Andy, if you gave it a try I think your point of view would change drastically. I can assure you there is no rules agenda to keep certain people winning. As with most sports, no matter what the "equipment" rules are, the cream always rises to the top. If one wishes to fly an airplane that is per the plan you are free to do so, with no penalty. How many of these slightly modded airplanes that most people on the outside complain about are really better? How many are actually worse? I'd bet a good portion are no better thN the originals. A properly setup patternship os early-mid 70s vintage will do most things very well, especially in the confines of non-turnaround competition. Most of the prominent designers of the day, Prettner, Matt, Whitley etc. had it figured out pretty well, not to mention they had to present their maneuvers with no electronic mixing help, so you can bet their designs are pretty sound. Most people just want to personalize, as Vic stated, and that has gone on in pattern from the beginning.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

You make many a valid point, Andy. I know that you know that. I just wanted you to know that I know it too.

Everyone describes classic pattern based upon the time that they were first getting into pattern competition. For me, those were the days of two-strokes only with no tuned pipes and no retracts. The Sun Fli, Daddy Rabbit and Kwik-Fli were the models of the day. The Enya .60 II & III were the engines. Yes, I did stay with pattern (off and on) for several decades, so I participated with piped engines and retractable landing gear a lot longer than I messed with the Kaos and derivatives (sp?). So who is "right". Everyone is and everyone isn't, except the sponsoring agency, the SPA.

Fortunately for me, my interest in winning awards has passed long ago, but I would enjoy being with those old warriors (young too) that once plied the Interstate highways with their war paint on.


Ed Cregger

spbyrum

Ed

In Ringgold you're less than 3 hours from four contests. Jump in, or just come visit while we compete.

Mods - When I first started building Curares, the local expert told me I needed to take most of the dihedral out of the wing. I didn't know better. The first Curare was also the first year I flew Expert, so I couldn't tell what was me and what was the plane. The plane had a LOT of mix issues. Short version is over about 5 Curares, I incrementally increased the dihedral until VOILA! the mix issues disappeared. The amazing thing was that I ended up with 3" under one tip just like the plans called for. I suspect Hanno and Hans had already worked this out. Local expert was doing what a friend who used to race SCCA open wheel cars calls cheating himself to the back of the grid.

My Curares are stretched a little, the wing is slid forward a little and the fuse is a little wider, all to allow the 4c to fit and balance with all the radio gear in the wing saddle area. I am not skilled enough to tell if any of this effects the way the plane flies. Those who compete against me know I gain no advantage.

I suspect those who are "purists" and want the planes built EXACTLY according to the plans do not also hold a CD license. Enforcing purity would be an impossible task from a CD's point of view. There is no way on this earth I am ever going to check a competitor's plane for legality. Such an inspection would spoil his fun and mine, too. If it looks like what he says it is, let's go fly.

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

There is no way on this earth I am ever going to check a competitor's plane for legality. Such an inspection would spoil his fun and mine, too. If it looks like what he says it is, let's go fly.
[/quote]

That is the best opinion on SPA I have ever heard. Why split hair's, you are right. For some of us in south FL, these AL, TN and NC contest's are a trip, 600+ mile's one way.
Good to hear from you, used to read about you, many year's ago, when most of us were just a little younger.

Vince
Hobe Sound, FL

Roary m

My Feedback: (67)

First, I need to know when one either qualifies or becomes an old salt, fart, etc.(I'm 52). The nature of vintage pattern is a somewhat re-creation of the old duffs doin their stuff and while there was an electric option, when I started flying in 1980, there were no electrics at pattern contests. Can motors would not be competitive, rather there were only tuned pipes screaming(music to me) and everything from Rabbits to Tipos carving air very rapidly and with precision. Change is precisely not the agenda of SPA and BPA. Rather, faithful restoration of the styles, practices and ships of the era is the agenda of these groups. ED makes an excellent point when he says that our reference is related to our "vintage", when we started flying, individually speaking. I confess, I really don't want to see electrics much less tail dragger Curares at these events, but that's just me. Thank you for letting me bend your ear.

Skylane

My Feedback: (3)

There have been some posts in this thread that represent well the SPA experience and there have been some that have completely missed some essential points. So, I'll add a few thoughts based on three years of SPA competition. I flew AMA pattern from 1979 through 1990, going from Novice up through FAI and I competed in the 1989 Team Selection in Pensacola. So, I've gone from a fixed gear muffled Kaos through retracts and tuned pipes on two Deceptions, a Tipo, an Escape, and, much later, a Pursuit 120 and a HydeOut (ok - that one had fixed gear).

A few years ago I decided to relive some past pattern experiences and I built a Cutlass Supreme with an OS 55 AX. Then I started competing in SPA contests. I was completely amazed by what I found. The friendship and camaraderie can not be beat! This felt like the old days, even though one could pick at some of the details. I then moved on to a Compensator using the 55 AX. I wanted to stay with 2-strokes since that was what I knew. But by the time I got to Expert, I realized that something needed to be done to get better scores. Even though I had enough power from the 55, the presentation was different from that of the 4-strokes. So, I decided that I would embark on a learning experience. Enough with digging my heels in and claiming purity with my 2-stroke. So, I put an OS 91 4-stroke in the Compensator and started learning how to fly it with a totally different power curve. And I found that I liked it! Was it the old style? No! Was it fun? Yes. The slower speed coupled with the increased vertical made for a totally different presentation - and one which made drawing lines in the sky a new experience. I know that I am not recreating the style typical of the early 70s when Rhett Miller flew his Compensator, but what I'm doing is enjoyable, even if different.

Some folks have made mention of the variations that some members put in their planes. Well, I've been soundly beaten by one pilot in particular who flies a Dirty Birdy. I know that is a Dirty Birdy because he told me so, but you couldn't tell by looking at it. Does that matter? Not to me. I watched his flying and realized that if we traded planes he would still beat me. You could tell by the smoothness and precision of his maneuvers. So, that just gave me more incentive to burn some more fuel! The variations in his plane didn't have much, if anything, to do with the fact that he beat me.

There are some other differences, as well. My wife is now my caller. She has even called for my competition! She helps me with the model in the pits. And more wives are starting to do that. The contest trips have turned into weekend road trips where we stop at various roadside attractions along the way and have a blast. And then there is the incomparable experience of swapping war stories in the pits between judging rounds and flying.

So, is everything exactly as it was in 1980? Nope. Am I having as much or more fun? Yup. It is really hard to convey the experience of an SPA contest by typing at a keyboard. And if you've never been to one, it is easy to criticize the rules and their interpretation. But if you just come to a contest, I think that you'll form an entirely different opinion.

Jeff

flyingtheoldones

My Feedback: (1)

Jeff, Very well spoken. I do think alot of us need to get away from our computers and come out to the events.
What you wrote about, Why you decided to change to the 91 is due to needing that little more for compitition. I think a couple people are going to comment on that..itwasposted earlier in this thread that the reasoning for that rule was due to the noise restrictions and to reduce the amount of complaints from neighboring houses at flying sites. Hard to swallow if looking at it from todays advances in our hobby. But the SPA established that rule back in the 90s. Looking at it from that date, that makes complete sense.
Our group of Clssic Pattern is growing quite rapidly and Im really pleased with where we are now. With the BPA and the SPA, now we have a class for everyone to enjoy. Purist and non purist alike. Pipes and mufflers, gear up, gear down, scratched w/ mods or built from original wood in kits. It is about having fun, and respecting others by acomidating them and what they want to fly. The SPA allowed BPA planes at there event. This helped the BPA to grow and start organizing events of their own.. allowing SPA to fly at their events.
So I guess what you are saying is right on target. We do need to get out to the events more.. I know I need to!



DM

eness76-RCU

My Feedback: (13)

Just so everybody knows, the masters contest was won this year in the expert class by a 2-stoke, flying fast, against a field of 4 strokes, including that dominant dirty birdy mentioned above. SPA is a much more level playing field than it gets credit for. Jamie flew the best, so he won.

I have flown both 2 and 4 strokes in SPA competition, if the maneuvers are flown properly, they score highly just as it should be. I would encourage everybody on the fence, including those with biases based on internet forum discussions, to come out and fly a competition. You will be hooked, and the things you thought were such big deals will melt away. I know because I was a squeaky wheel right here on the classic pattern forum 5 years ago. I flew AMA in the 80s and 90s pre-turnaround, and I thought it was pipes and retracts or bust. I carried that attitude all the way from Columbus, Ohio to Cullman, Alabama where Mr. Steve Byrum challenged all forum squeaky wheels such as myself to bring their piped and retracted vintage patternships to compete. In one weekend I went from that state of mind, to assembling my own SPA legal aircraft to compete in the regular class.

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Eness - Well said. Whatever happened to Alan Dupler up that way ?

Vince

dphill2

My Feedback: (1)

I guess what I'm hearing everybody say is the rules that Mickey set out with dont matter.
Just build what ever you want and it will be ok. I for one feel real silly, because I build my airplane by the plan's and I could have built anything I wanted just so it look's like somthing from the 70's.
By the way 76-RCU you did not say what the airplane was that beat that funny looking Dirty bird ??? Could it have been a funny looking Compensator???
We all know that there is no performance advantage to make changes !! So why would you do it ??

onewasp

From one of the '60s to mid 70s guys .

I would support either/or/all.

It is the airplane we wish to see perform; not simply the noise and speed !
If you think for a second that an electric set up for CPA can't haul the mail then you've got the wrong set up !

Yes, the howl was a part of the 'olde' days but it also drove the sport from many, many fields .
SPA recognized that in allowing, encouraging actually, four strokes.

Seems to me that it is the spirit of the "classics" that we wish to keep.
Too many rules = too many reasons to say "no" to the idea .

If the plane is a classic (looks like a Duck), flies like a classic (flies like a Duck), then its a Duck and to hell with requiring the 'bad' aspect of the time (noise).
It should be neither a requirement nor a rule out factor IMO.
Let the flying be true !

I flew at that time (still do, simply not competitive at this age) and even then the noise got through to those of us who did fly it.

One man's opinion and that's all that it is.

Too few basic rules kills a movement.
Also too many does likewise.

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

I agree with Dave, there is no advantage to custom build a spa plane, and call it legal. On the noise factor, to many of us, we just love to smell glow fuel, hear the engine's scream. Many year's ago, when my wife and I first married, our first house was in the country. On Saturday night, the dirt stock car track nearby, made a lot of noise. That wasn't so bad, just good ol' boy's havin' some fun. Go down there, eat dirt for a few hour's in the stand's, wash that dirt down with cold beer, fuss and cuss, have fun.

On the other side of the hill, was moto-cross, all 2 cycle's burnin' up the track. You want to be agitated, just listen to that whrrrr-whrrrr-whrrr, all day and into the evening. Drove you nut's, no kind of muffler, but I am sure tuned pipe's. Eventually it was voted out by the county comm's.
Here in south FL, the club I belonged to for many year's, had to move, way out, I am sure the noise for the home's in the area, was the cause.

The other club I belong to, south of there, we are hearing the same issue's, noise. It may sound like music to our ear's, but to other's we are just a nuisance.

Vince

onewasp

Today unfortunately if you wish to keep the 'sound' you will pay dearly for the luxury.

Unless you have some ideal circumstances part of that payment will be that you can't use the plane
and practice with it at your home field. That would be the case where I fly.
Specially arranged contests (like Chicago, 2010) yes. But then you've got something that is for those "special occasions"
but that is about all you can use them for.

I wish you well, .................. on account of a how; if you insist on keeping the noise then you will join the homeless.

Speaking of alky burning race cars etc., I have only partial hearing left because of that.
Still, I would do it again, 'cause I enjoyed it that much.

As I said earlier, .....if you're willing to pay the price then ......................

WEDJ

A couple of years ago, the Staten Island (NY) club hosted a SPA event (thanks to Jim Hamilton), there were about 12 competitors, and the plane that won top honors was a Sr. Falcon, AX .55, no mixing, no nothing. The flying and placement won out.

hook57

My Feedback: (21)

Good points Vince! I recall the unmuffled sounds from the late sixties and early seventies; loved it becauseit meant someone was out at the field. Today, with noise issue and all, the friggin monster bass boomboxes in the cars that cause the walls in my house to vibrate like hell are more annoying than the 2S I ran in the yard the other day; the nieghbors agreed too. Oh well, it just drove by so I thought I'd vent that bit. For me, it's pattern as I knew it and loved it, here's a chance to do it again after life's interuptions; I'll take it anyway they want usto present it.

Mark

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

I have to disagree with the notion that tuned pipes (muffled for pattern) had anything to do with folks losing flying fields. Criminey! Piped two-strokes with pattern pipes (muffled) were quieter than OS or Saito .40 four-stroke engines with stock mufflers.

We agree most of the time, but on this one I have to disagree a tiny bit.


Ed Cregger

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

You make an excellent point, old friend. I wish I could find some building and flying buddies in the area that were SPA oriented. Ones that could stand an ex-pat Yankee. Maybe then I could get one of these Kaos or Intruder 90 models fitted up and flying.


Ed Cregger

RMcL

1
Not a bit but I still hope to do it one day...looks like it can be fun sometimes!

Skylane

My Feedback: (3)

Ed,

You are practically in the heart of SPA! Ringgold looks to be about halfway between Dalton, GA and Chattanooga, TN. There's a great contest in Chattanooga each year, run by Mike Robinson (SPA Treasurer) who is from Dalton. He belongs to both clubs and must drive right by you going to Chattanooga. The PCMCA club south of Dalton holds a regular SPA contest each year and also an Antique contest. There are a bunch of SPA members there. I try to go to all of thiose contests and I'm in Tallahassee. Like I said - your in the heart of it. Oh, and I'm originally from Syracuse, New York and they still let me fly in the contests!

Jeff

RMcL

Noise really isn't the issue, we had a 92db limit back in the waning days of the .60 2 stroke. It was easy to achievewith an APC prop, a Hatori Pipe and a soft mount. My Aurora registered 89 db at the 1992 Nats. If anything, noise rules have relaxed in recent years as evidenced by the large scale aerobatic crowd.

The realreason is thatmost SPAfliers like 4 strokes and don't like dealing with pipes. Why not?It's an easy set up and the planes fly more like 2 meter ones, especially when you stretch them! Besides, you can really supe them up with the right knowhow. This is the same phenomenon that happened in regular pattern in the early 90s. It is just natural evolution pretty much on schedule...electrics will win the crowd over soon enough.

I still say it doesn't matter though...non turnaround pattern is what makes the difference. Even with that, Icompeted at theNats a few years ago witha 2 stroke and I suffered no disadvantage for it. (It wasn't a .60 though I'm thinking about it :P).

SPA guys are very easy to get along with so give it a try with anything that resembles the "spirit of the law" and forget about making literal sense out of the rules! This was the learning curve for me, but I'm on board as long as it stays non-turnaround and friendly.


Ryan

zdog

My Feedback: (3)

velly intellesting,no need for a merger ,the more options the better besides too many people wouldn't like the rules,that's part of the reason we have spa, bpa, cpa,over the years you'll find modlers are as opinionated as the differences in aircraft design.
      zdog

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

So true. But they (modellers) wouldn't be any fun to fly with if everyone shared the same opinion.

Yes, I am living pretty much in the middle of SPA country. It doesn't get any better than this, from that perspective. I'm not really unhappy with anything about the SPA as it is currently. We're just yakking. Or at least, I am.

What I can't understand (no, not about the SPA) is that many modellers are ham radio operators. Why aren't we on the air talking about model airplanes? I have the equipment all set up from contacts on 75 or 40 meter phone for region 4 (or whatever region/area can squeak in - all would be welcome - any country).


Ed Cregger