I'm getting back into the hobby after a short (~5 years?) semi-absence.

I ordered the plans for a Loaded Dice II, Gitano 60, and a Vector II. The first 2 use 60's, the latter a 40 size engine.
During research on these models, I also found out about the LDIII, and am wondering if this plane is pretty much just for the 1.2-1.x engines with tuned pipes, or if it could be used with "regular" 2 or 4 stroke engines w/o a pipe. I'm not looking for F3A performance, so I don't really need hot performance. If were to get into pattern again, it'd be more like sportsman level.

John

John,

welcome back to the hobby. I believe that tuned pipes (TP) on 4 stroke engines are questionable in performance gain. I inquired on the same topic a year or two ago and was told that TP's are effective mufflers on 4 strokes (which are already quiet) but don't significantly change the power curve of the engines. The 2 stroke pipes are basically designed and sized for 2 stroke resonance.

I believe the designs that you want to build are of later classic vintage. You could probably power them with whatever you want (2s, 4s or electric) provided they have adequate power.

It would be interesting to see some snaps of the plans you intend to build from. That and specs would no doubt bring on a number of suggestions for power plants in the thread.

David.

David, I guess my original question was poorly phrased. I mean that the big 2 strokes with pipes, but the 4 strokes with regular mufflers.
I put it that way because the modern 2x2 pattern planes, including the LDIII, seem to be geared towards the big 2 strokes with pipes, and was wondering if maybe a 1.2-1.8 4 stroke would be enough power, or physically too big.

The plans I got from RCM with using non-piped 2 strokes or 4 strokes in mind. I really like the classic pattern aircraft look.

John,

I think there might indeed be a little confusion going on. First, are we strictly talking about the LDIII or about your ordered plans in general?

It might be best if you provide some specs on the model as I have no idea of what we are talking about other than knowing the name Loaded Dice.

Other than that though, I'd say that modern 2x2 pattern planes which are ~75-78" in span/length are by en large designed for either electric power or large 4 strokes notably YS DZ 160's and 170's (1.6 or 1.7 cu in.) Classic pattern planes are considerably smaller with wing spans typically in the 65-69" span range. Engines for these models would be smaller typically for 0.6 two strokes or 1.2 four strokes max. Typical SPA planes fly with 0.9 4 strokes on their silencers (i.e., no pipes) while BPA/CPA planes are more typically powered with piped 0.6's and retracts.

Post a snap of the plan we're talking about, provide a link to it and/or post some specs and we'll be able to better settle this. In a nutshell though, models need to be powered appropriately for their size regardless of type of power and/or exhaust system. A model that needs a 0.6 cu in 2 stroke engine will fly with or without a pipe. This last is a builder's choice as would be the use of a 0.9 4 stroke without a pipe. Either one will generate comparable power as would 1400W of electric power.

David.

If I remember the loaded dice III, it was designed by Terry Westrop? In the article I'm sure he was using a 1.40 RX. I'm sure that you'd be able to find a 140 cheap of someone here. They're absolute sewing machines.

I'd hazard a guess and say wedging a 180 in the front would require substantial shortening of the nose, not to mention a fairly hefty chunk of the engine sticking out through it's rather slim frame.

Loaded Dice is a Westrop design, not vintage, hardly classic, really, mid '90's thing, came in several sizes and was developed through several marks. More info is needed, span, length etc...
Evan, WB #12.

If we're talking about a 2m plane designed for something like the 140 RX, other than the fact that it was a RE engine, there are a number of other 2 strokes (glow and gas!) that would be decent subsitutues. I don't see a need to wedge a 4 stroke 1.8 when everyone else is using 1.6 or 1.7 4 strokes in their 2m planes - granted, there's probably little difference in size between a 1.7 and a 1.8 but if the model was designed for an enclosed 2 stroke, that's what I would do.

I guess I'll head to find some info on the LDIII.

David.

As far as I know, the LDIII is a 2m pattern aircraft. In perusing what little research on various pattern models, I didn't find a whole lot of info on the LD3. The hobby shop in England that sells the plans for it didn't have a description. It's my understanding it was designed for the 1.40 class engines as Renegade mentioned, and was from the mid to late 90's. The hobby shop that sells the plans also has a cowl, wing, and tail available, but I'm not sure why the tail needs to be available separate, since I haven't seen the plans. Shipping is too cost prohibitive though. I think I'll order the plans anyway, just because! If I build this, I don't want to shell out the bucks for a high end YS or OS engine, and would rather get a nice calm saito 4 stroke or a non-pipe 2 stroke.

The other planes I'm talking about, are older designs, with the Gitano and LDII being published in RCM in 1994. 2 stroke .60's, but I'm not sure if either uses a pipe, I'll have to wait for them to arrive.

ETA: Just noticed that the LDIII plan is listed under "electric" on that website, but mentions a 1.40 under power requirements.

[link=http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/product/17808/rc1877-loaded-dice-iii-plan]LDIII plan[/link]

John,

the link you provide actually seems to state that 2 stroke 1.2 (120) glow power is called for. A quick search on the net revealed this site:

http://www.zen33329.zen.co.uk/Gallery1.htm

which shows Terry having used a RE Webra 120 (red head) in one of his models. It appears that only later was the OS 140 RX substituted in place. RE engines are hard to come by in any size as the engine community in general has mostly stopped making them but a Webra should be obtainable if one looks. On the other hand, it is probably easier to find an OS 140 at a decent cost which would probably be lower than any 4 stroke 1.4 to 1.8. A few builders on the forum have recently sourced RX's in the build of Akiba Wild Beats which are also very close to 2m aircraft. A design like that would be quite easy to convert to electric power reason for which they might have the plan listed under electric.

BTW, using a side exhaust 120 2 stroke makes things a fair bit easier in terms of engine options. It can be mounted inverted with a swan neck header, mounted at 8 o'clock with the cylinder exposed from the cowl or simply mounted inverted with a regular muffler.

I think that in the UK when they say "wing and tail" in the context of foam cores, they mean wing and stab cores. It is possible that the vertical might also be constructed using a foam core - always an option with airfoiled verticals.

David.

I have built Westrop's Acro, predecessor to the Loaded Dice and very similar to it, and two Gitanos. All were built from plans. All three are great flying planes. They can be built lightly and fly very well. They should end up around 7-7 1/2 pounds.

The Acro was built in the early 90's and used a Super Tigre 61 K ABC and a Macs quiet pipe set long. The Gitanos were in mid 90's. The Gitanos I have flown (mine and other's) have used various two stroke 61's and four stroke 91's and even a YS 110. My first one had an OS61 FSR with a pipe and the other had an OS91 four stroke and later a Saito 100.

They aren't classics in the sense most are on here, they were designed in the early turn around years. Having said that, they are similar to many designs of that period in being pretty similar to the classics , just a bit bigger with a lower wing loading. They are plenty fast at full throttle, but will land slower than a true classic like an Phoenix 8 or a Tipo. All that I have flown had retracts except one that was heavily modified.

I think the best flying set up for these is a 91 4 stroke or a Saito 100 and something like a 13X9 or 14X8 APC prop. Having said that, they also fly great with a 2 stroke 61 . Of the ones you've mentioned , I'd go with the Gitano. It is simple to build if you can cut or buy wing cores, and well designed. I think we did widen the fuselage a little to accommodate soft mounts more easily with the 4 stroke set up. Every one of these I have built end up needing some tail weight, but not much, so you can keep that in mind as you lay out equipment, etc.

Good luck, I think you will like one of these. I tried to upload a picture of a slightly modified Gitano, the one of mine with a Saito 100. The wing was lowered some in the fuselage. It is on the ground with retracts up to clean it. Sorry I don't have a better picture. I hope it loaded properly.

Chuck

How do you get the prop to turn with landing gear that short?!

I built a LD III and powered it with a YS 140FZ on a Gator mount. Although I had an Hatori pipe on it, there was more than sufficient power suggesting that a standard muffler would be OK. Hope this helps. BTW, flown in competitions so gives you an idea of performance.

This may not help much but TT has a 1.2 two stroke rear exhaust powerplant. If you can locate a wrap around header, Karl Mueller used to make them for the OS 1.6 two stroke as well as the large ST's. One thing I will say about using a tuned silencer on a large four stroke engine is that while it will not help in scavenging the exhaust pulse, it does sound kind of cool. YS 1.40?

Hi Renegade,

I just hold it up, start it, and throw it at the ground and miss! The one shown has placed well in several local pattern meets, so it was competitive. It wouldn't be now though, except maybe sportsman through advanced classes.

The plan arrived today. only took 2 1/2 weeks to arrive from England. 1 sheet. Definitely intended for the 1.40 w/tune pipe class engines, but does mention using 4 strokes by moving back the firewall. Options for fixed or retractable gear. foam tail feathers and wing. only a few few fuse formers. Could definitely be built pretty light.

The easiest engine option for the Loaded dice is defiantly the OS140RX.
with anything else, the amount you have to cut out of the very slim and tight cowl for mufflers or wrap around headers makes it a difficult model to work on. It was an early 2M model, and has a skinny fuselage, and as such the 140 has a great power to weight ratio, and is still very competitive.
The other advantage, is it is pumped making the fuel tank location over the c of g, which is again just a lot easier to service than one that has to be stuck right up against the firewall! basically, the 140 rear exhaust motor option would give you the best Sports model on the field, and with all the pattern pilots going electric, second hand OS140's would be cheap too, after the first start of the day, they are usually started by just flicking the spinner backwards, a brilliant motor!

The easiest engine option for the Loaded dice is defiantly the OS140RX.
with anything else, the amount you have to cut out of the very slim and tight cowl for mufflers or wrap around headers makes it a difficult model to work on. It was an early 2M model, and has a skinny fuselage, and as such the 140 has a great power to weight ratio, and is still very competitive.
The other advantage, is it is pumped making the fuel tank location over the c of g, which is again just a lot easier to service than one that has to be stuck right up against the firewall! basically, the 140 rear exhaust motor option would give you the best Sports model on the field, and with all the pattern pilots going electric, second hand OS140's would be cheap too, after the first start of the day, they are usually started by just flicking the spinner backwards, a brilliant motor!

Strange we should still be talking about 1.40's, while I continue to doggedly wait for my ESC to arrive from Castle, I had to pull my old ship out of retirement. It's a carrera from around 2000, and has a 1.40 just as old in the front.

All I did when I put it away 12 months ago was a shot of ATF down the throat and plugged the carb.


Yesterday morning after a quick prime it was back to running like a 2-bob watch. I have to admit, I still love those motors. You won't find a better engine, (just don't skimp on the nitro, they HATE it).


Now I don't really care if that ESC arrives or not.