Phoenix 8 trim problem
05-19-2004, 02:24 PM
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Phoenix 8 trim problem
I need help from some of you expert.
I test flew the phoenix Pattern airplane the other day only to find out that it was badly out of trim. I had full up trim to keep it going.
and when landing came, it wanted to float foerever.
I found on the bench that the wing incidence was 1/2 degree negative. I corrected this and out I went today for another test flight.
Much better, Buuttttt, at half throttle, I trimed it for level flight, but when I power it up to full throttle, it wants to dive, then I trim, and then half throttle it is the opposite., I had a hell of a time landing it because it wanted to float forever. sign of tail heavy, and it is as neutral on the balance as I can get it.
HELPPPPPPPP
Thanks for any advice.
BTW, this thing is fast, very fast...
I test flew the phoenix Pattern airplane the other day only to find out that it was badly out of trim. I had full up trim to keep it going.
and when landing came, it wanted to float foerever.
I found on the bench that the wing incidence was 1/2 degree negative. I corrected this and out I went today for another test flight.
Much better, Buuttttt, at half throttle, I trimed it for level flight, but when I power it up to full throttle, it wants to dive, then I trim, and then half throttle it is the opposite., I had a hell of a time landing it because it wanted to float forever. sign of tail heavy, and it is as neutral on the balance as I can get it.
HELPPPPPPPP
Thanks for any advice.
BTW, this thing is fast, very fast...
05-19-2004, 02:57 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
ORIGINAL: vinnyjet
does the plane have retracts
if so balance it with the gear down
if not it sounds like it is tail heavy
vinny
does the plane have retracts
if so balance it with the gear down
if not it sounds like it is tail heavy
vinny
No it doesn't have retracts.
If its tail heavy which I think your right, what about the fact that I need a lot of up trim ?
Roger
05-19-2004, 03:18 PM
#4
RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
Maybe too much engine down thrust, if it is trimmed level at 1/2 throttle and dives at full throttle.
Why not trim it to dive vertical in downlines and then setup engine down thrust accordingly.
Of course you should use plans C.G. as a starting point.
ini
Why not trim it to dive vertical in downlines and then setup engine down thrust accordingly.
Of course you should use plans C.G. as a starting point.
ini
05-19-2004, 03:20 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
ORIGINAL: ini
Maybe too much engine down thrust, if it is trimmed level at 1/2 throttle and dives at full throttle.
Why not trim it to dive vertical in downlines and then setup engine down thrust accordingly.
Of course you should use plans C.G. as a starting point.
ini
Maybe too much engine down thrust, if it is trimmed level at 1/2 throttle and dives at full throttle.
Why not trim it to dive vertical in downlines and then setup engine down thrust accordingly.
Of course you should use plans C.G. as a starting point.
ini
This is very usefull information.
Roger
05-19-2004, 08:09 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
ORIGINAL: impactiq
I agree with the down thrust being the majority of your problem.
I agree with the down thrust being the majority of your problem.
Thanks, I will be doing some hard checking tomorow for sure.
Roger
05-20-2004, 02:13 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
Well here are my findings. Everything is set up properly at 0 degrees, stab, wing, and engine. Any other ideas?
I am waiting for the landing plate to set in glue, then I will reassemble it and again check the CG.
Thanks to everyone that has offered some help so far. I appreciate it.
Roger
I am waiting for the landing plate to set in glue, then I will reassemble it and again check the CG.
Thanks to everyone that has offered some help so far. I appreciate it.
Roger
05-21-2004, 08:03 AM
#9
RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
Roger,
It sounds to me as though the plane might be terribly nose heavy. The reason I say this is that the P8 was originally designed as a trike gear ship and I have no idea how much that landing gear you put on it weighs, but I would wager it is making a big difference by where it is placed. If you are having to trim nose up at full throttle w/a O/O/O setup then you are nose heavy. Easy check??? Roll it inverted and see if she climbs. I bet it does. A P-8 does NOT like to fly slow at all and mine always felt "mushy" at slow speeds but very accurate at high speeds. Anyway, as others suggested, use the plans CG first as a guide... but when in doubt..roll her inverted and see if she climbs.. if so.. nose heavy. I seriously doubt you have a tail heavy bird with that tail dragger configuration. Hope this helps. I'm getting ready to build a new one.... hard to get away from a plane you really like.
Deadstik...[8D]
Carolina Custom Aircraft
It sounds to me as though the plane might be terribly nose heavy. The reason I say this is that the P8 was originally designed as a trike gear ship and I have no idea how much that landing gear you put on it weighs, but I would wager it is making a big difference by where it is placed. If you are having to trim nose up at full throttle w/a O/O/O setup then you are nose heavy. Easy check??? Roll it inverted and see if she climbs. I bet it does. A P-8 does NOT like to fly slow at all and mine always felt "mushy" at slow speeds but very accurate at high speeds. Anyway, as others suggested, use the plans CG first as a guide... but when in doubt..roll her inverted and see if she climbs.. if so.. nose heavy. I seriously doubt you have a tail heavy bird with that tail dragger configuration. Hope this helps. I'm getting ready to build a new one.... hard to get away from a plane you really like.
Deadstik...[8D]
Carolina Custom Aircraft
05-21-2004, 04:09 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
ORIGINAL: Deadstik
Roger,
It sounds to me as though the plane might be terribly nose heavy. The reason I say this is that the P8 was originally designed as a trike gear ship and I have no idea how much that landing gear you put on it weighs, but I would wager it is making a big difference by where it is placed. If you are having to trim nose up at full throttle w/a O/O/O setup then you are nose heavy. Easy check??? Roll it inverted and see if she climbs. I bet it does. A P-8 does NOT like to fly slow at all and mine always felt "mushy" at slow speeds but very accurate at high speeds. Anyway, as others suggested, use the plans CG first as a guide... but when in doubt..roll her inverted and see if she climbs.. if so.. nose heavy. I seriously doubt you have a tail heavy bird with that tail dragger configuration. Hope this helps. I'm getting ready to build a new one.... hard to get away from a plane you really like.
Deadstik...[8D]
Carolina Custom Aircraft
Roger,
It sounds to me as though the plane might be terribly nose heavy. The reason I say this is that the P8 was originally designed as a trike gear ship and I have no idea how much that landing gear you put on it weighs, but I would wager it is making a big difference by where it is placed. If you are having to trim nose up at full throttle w/a O/O/O setup then you are nose heavy. Easy check??? Roll it inverted and see if she climbs. I bet it does. A P-8 does NOT like to fly slow at all and mine always felt "mushy" at slow speeds but very accurate at high speeds. Anyway, as others suggested, use the plans CG first as a guide... but when in doubt..roll her inverted and see if she climbs.. if so.. nose heavy. I seriously doubt you have a tail heavy bird with that tail dragger configuration. Hope this helps. I'm getting ready to build a new one.... hard to get away from a plane you really like.
Deadstik...[8D]
Carolina Custom Aircraft
Again, I realy appreciate yours and everyone else's help on this.
Roger
06-17-2004, 07:11 PM
#11
RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
ORIGINAL: aerografixs
Today, I just checked the cg and yes it is out. I installed some lead weight in the tail and very anxious to try again,
Again, I realy appreciate yours and everyone else's help on this.
Roger
ORIGINAL: Deadstik
Roger,
It sounds to me as though the plane might be terribly nose heavy. The reason I say this is that the P8 was originally designed as a trike gear ship and I have no idea how much that landing gear you put on it weighs, but I would wager it is making a big difference by where it is placed. If you are having to trim nose up at full throttle w/a O/O/O setup then you are nose heavy. Easy check??? Roll it inverted and see if she climbs. I bet it does. A P-8 does NOT like to fly slow at all and mine always felt "mushy" at slow speeds but very accurate at high speeds. Anyway, as others suggested, use the plans CG first as a guide... but when in doubt..roll her inverted and see if she climbs.. if so.. nose heavy. I seriously doubt you have a tail heavy bird with that tail dragger configuration. Hope this helps. I'm getting ready to build a new one.... hard to get away from a plane you really like.
Deadstik...[8D]
Carolina Custom Aircraft
Roger,
It sounds to me as though the plane might be terribly nose heavy. The reason I say this is that the P8 was originally designed as a trike gear ship and I have no idea how much that landing gear you put on it weighs, but I would wager it is making a big difference by where it is placed. If you are having to trim nose up at full throttle w/a O/O/O setup then you are nose heavy. Easy check??? Roll it inverted and see if she climbs. I bet it does. A P-8 does NOT like to fly slow at all and mine always felt "mushy" at slow speeds but very accurate at high speeds. Anyway, as others suggested, use the plans CG first as a guide... but when in doubt..roll her inverted and see if she climbs.. if so.. nose heavy. I seriously doubt you have a tail heavy bird with that tail dragger configuration. Hope this helps. I'm getting ready to build a new one.... hard to get away from a plane you really like.
Deadstik...[8D]
Carolina Custom Aircraft
Again, I realy appreciate yours and everyone else's help on this.
Roger
So what happened on the next test flight?
06-17-2004, 08:25 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
ORIGINAL: 8178
So what happened on the next test flight?
So what happened on the next test flight?
I still need weight in the tail, even thought it was a bit better. The problem that I am having now it doesn't matter how smooth I land, the landing gear pulls out. So for now, I have put it on the shelf to finish my 34% Edge and then I will look into it.
The way my landing gear is made, it is not solid in the fuselage. And being Carbon Fibre, it doesn't absorb anything .
If any of you have good ideas about how to properly install this, let me know.
Thanks
Roger
06-19-2004, 03:01 AM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
It was interesting to read this information about the Phoenix 8. We are having similar problems with an old "recycled" 80's pattern ship. Trimmed for level flight at full noise the nose comes up alarmingly on landing approach and the plane refuses to settle in unless the speed can be washed off to the point that its barely flying. It runs No downthrust, though the indications are that it has exessive downthrust...strange??
06-19-2004, 03:17 AM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
Something worth trying.... trim for a small amount of droop on both ailerons and the down elevator trim to compensate... will tend to pitch the nose down at low speed. We will be shot down in flames over this one as it will mess up the tracking of the ship in other respects. it basically has the same effect as altering the wing/tail incidence.
Yeah....these things are fast....would'nt be the same if they were'nt
Yeah....these things are fast....would'nt be the same if they were'nt
06-20-2004, 02:25 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
take a look at this link:
http://www.nsrca.org/trimA.htm
I think it might help you...
give us some news after your tests.
Wilker.
http://www.nsrca.org/trimA.htm
I think it might help you...
give us some news after your tests.
Wilker.
11-19-2004, 04:59 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
Can someone here post a picture of their Phoenix 7 or 8. I thought I had a 6, but have been told that the version 6 did not have the removable canopy with the area for the pipe, and that's what I have here. Many years ago I lost the information to the ship and have never completed it. Getting back into the hobby now and want to finish it off. Plan on putting the OS .91 in there insted of the original OS .60 with pump and pipe.
Thanks for the help.
Tommy
Thanks for the help.
Tommy
11-19-2004, 10:55 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
Hey thank for the pic of the P-8. Well that's not my plane either. Mine, what ever it is, has a much larger stab and fin and the stab has the negative dihedral as per the F-4C Phantom. The canopy piece, which is pretty long and comprises the canopy and the cover for the pipe, goes from pretty close to the nose across the back of the fuse and is held down with #2 screws.
The fuse and this canopy piece is still in the green fiberglass as I haven't done anything with is. I will set it up and shoot several shots of it as it is and see if anyone had any ideas.
Thanks guys,
Tommy
The fuse and this canopy piece is still in the green fiberglass as I haven't done anything with is. I will set it up and shoot several shots of it as it is and see if anyone had any ideas.
Thanks guys,
Tommy
11-19-2004, 11:04 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
ORIGINAL: tconnell
Hey thank for the pic of the P-8. Well that's not my plane either. Mine, what ever it is, has a much larger stab and fin and the stab has the negative dihedral as per the F-4C Phantom. The canopy piece, which is pretty long and comprises the canopy and the cover for the pipe, goes from pretty close to the nose across the back of the fuse and is held down with #2 screws.
The fuse and this canopy piece is still in the green fiberglass as I haven't done anything with is. I will set it up and shoot several shots of it as it is and see if anyone had any ideas.
Thanks guys,
Tommy
Hey thank for the pic of the P-8. Well that's not my plane either. Mine, what ever it is, has a much larger stab and fin and the stab has the negative dihedral as per the F-4C Phantom. The canopy piece, which is pretty long and comprises the canopy and the cover for the pipe, goes from pretty close to the nose across the back of the fuse and is held down with #2 screws.
The fuse and this canopy piece is still in the green fiberglass as I haven't done anything with is. I will set it up and shoot several shots of it as it is and see if anyone had any ideas.
Thanks guys,
Tommy
Roger
11-20-2004, 12:34 PM
#22
RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
Tommy,
I'll bet you have EU1-A. Both the Phoenix 8 and the EU1A were manufactured by Aero composites. All it will take is a picture and we will get you a 100% answer. Ships w/anhedral stabs included the Curare, Magic, Illusion, and a lot of guys modified the EU1 ( I know I did.. everybody wanted to be Hanno). But, you may also have a Bridi designed Escape or one of his earlier designs that used a full length fiberglass combo canopy/pipe enclosure. Just send a pic and I'm sure you'll get the correct answer.
Deadstik,
Carolina Custom Aircraft
I'll bet you have EU1-A. Both the Phoenix 8 and the EU1A were manufactured by Aero composites. All it will take is a picture and we will get you a 100% answer. Ships w/anhedral stabs included the Curare, Magic, Illusion, and a lot of guys modified the EU1 ( I know I did.. everybody wanted to be Hanno). But, you may also have a Bridi designed Escape or one of his earlier designs that used a full length fiberglass combo canopy/pipe enclosure. Just send a pic and I'm sure you'll get the correct answer.
Deadstik,
Carolina Custom Aircraft
11-21-2004, 10:13 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
Deadstick,
Just got back from Atlanta. Thanks for the post. I plan on shooting a session in the moring on the plane I have, what ever it is, and will post a few images of it here to see who can do a Sherlock Holmes on it. It's a mystery to me so far.
I have never posted an image here and guess you use the Image buttom above to add the link. Do you have to upload the image to your server and then post the link via the image button, or can you just link to an image in a folder on your computer?? A little clarity on this would be appreciated. Did a search on adding images here on the forum, but didn't get anything. Probably searched for the wrong thing.
Also, about what size image in MB is used here? I know that I will have to downsize the image loads as the JPG's from our Canon bodies are 8.3 MG's out of the camera. A pretty large JPG file size. Info on this is also appreciated.
Deadstick thanks for the help and I know that with the forthcoming images you, or someone on the Pattern forum will nail this down.
Thanks a bunch.
Tommy
Just got back from Atlanta. Thanks for the post. I plan on shooting a session in the moring on the plane I have, what ever it is, and will post a few images of it here to see who can do a Sherlock Holmes on it. It's a mystery to me so far.
I have never posted an image here and guess you use the Image buttom above to add the link. Do you have to upload the image to your server and then post the link via the image button, or can you just link to an image in a folder on your computer?? A little clarity on this would be appreciated. Did a search on adding images here on the forum, but didn't get anything. Probably searched for the wrong thing.
Also, about what size image in MB is used here? I know that I will have to downsize the image loads as the JPG's from our Canon bodies are 8.3 MG's out of the camera. A pretty large JPG file size. Info on this is also appreciated.
Deadstick thanks for the help and I know that with the forthcoming images you, or someone on the Pattern forum will nail this down.
Thanks a bunch.
Tommy
11-21-2004, 10:36 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
This is a test of sorts. Wanted to see if I had it down to insert an image into a post.
This is an image of a vintage GP CAP-21 circa 1980 or 81. Still flies great... but does live up to the name of Snappy Cap if you are not careful.
[link=http://www.connellstudios.com/RC/Cap%2021_web.jpg]Click to view full image[/link]
This is an image of a vintage GP CAP-21 circa 1980 or 81. Still flies great... but does live up to the name of Snappy Cap if you are not careful.
[link=http://www.connellstudios.com/RC/Cap%2021_web.jpg]Click to view full image[/link]
11-22-2004, 01:27 PM
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RE: Phoenix 8 trim problem
Here are some images of the so-called Phoenix. Hope some of you guys can figure out what it actually is.
Thanks for the help on the plane on getting images here correctly.
Tommy
Thanks for the help on the plane on getting images here correctly.
Tommy