Ok guys, I am an engine nut. I always seem much more interested in the engine than the plane or the radio. I love looking at web sites or brochures and gathering all the data I can to make comparison charts on rpm range, horsepower, weight, and price. I’m completely anal about getting the most engine for the buck. I’ve owned Enya, Fox, K&B, OS, SuperTiger, GMS, Webra, and Royal. My favorites are the older Fox .45 BB with a Semco muffler, the K&B .61 pumper, and the Webra .61 Blackhead. I’ve been in and out of the hobby for the past 30 years; I started when I was around 17. I love glow two cycles and have never owned a 4C, but that will change in the next few months.

I give all of that wordy and lengthy background to ask the following questions. I regularly see US made engines trounced in the forums. There are those, like me, who love the American made engines. But I see guys nearly ridiculed for extolling the virtues of the US engine. So, help me out here. What’s wrong with the K&B, or Fox? I recently read in a thread where someone wrote, “a true pattern guy wouldn’t be caught dead with a Fox Eagle .61 on his plane” (paraphrased). Why? How about the Jett, Nelson, or other brands of Mecoa? What about the RJL K61? Perhaps my experiences are much more limited than many of those out there. Are the American made engines too “fussy”?

There is no need to compare 4C to 2C, I'm more interested in why American brands are less favored than foreign engines.

So, I have come to the mountain for the wisdom of my peers. What say ye?

Jeff,

I have three new RJL K.61s. I’ve only run one of them so far and had a little problem with the carb. I looks like the two first engines I bought had a small problem with the low speed needle valve so I put the newest carb on and it runs outstanding. Meanwhile RJL is taking care of the carb problems for me and apparently none of the new carbs have the problem. The RJL K.61 is one of the few engines left that have the small case like the Webra 61, Veco 61, silver case Irvine 61, etc. RJL engines are available from Sheldon’s Hobbies http://www.sheldonshobbies.com/ .

Happy with American made stuff and do not and never will own a four stroke!

For the most part, nothing. Both, especially Fox, have have varing degrees of quality control issues, that is going from good or great to poor and back again, but I think both are good right now. Also both especially Fox have had models with tuning quirks. That is they would run fine, but you had to tune by their insructions, not the OS way.

I think the more modern American engines, namely Jett and Nelson have high regard in both quality and performance. Unfortunately their price reflects this high regard.

If you like them then who cares what others say...

There are quite a few engines I would put on a rung below the K&B - Two of the best kept secrets in RC is the Twist-61 which sits in a 46 sized case- and the K&B Screamin' 48... Very powerful, quiet and easy to tune- (A bit heavy tho)

Jett and Nelson speak for themselves--- I try to buy american with most things but with RC I enjoy trying the cross-section of engines-

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I know kids (and now adults) that won't own an American made car, regardless of how well it runs. It just isn't fashionable. I feel that some of the reason for rejecting American R/C engines/products is based upon peer pressure.

You have to admit, though, that other than a few older modelers, there really isn't much demand for small glow two-strokes these days. By today's standards, that is all that the American manufacturers ever made.

I just bought three brand new old school Rossi engines. Why? Because I couldn't get them back when I originally wanted them. Back in the early eighties, you had to be someone notorious and be on a backorder list. I was neither. I ended up trying to fly OS .61 VF's and FSR's in pattern and paid the consequences for it. My favorite not a Rossi engine was the Webra Speed .61 w/Dykes ring, but it was getting long of tooth by that time and just didn't have the oomph of the Rossi .60.

So now I have a Rossi .45 3D, .53 and a .60 sitting in my inventory.

I like four-stroke engines too. Now I'm also messing with gas engines again. The SPE engines being sold by Brillelli and BCMAE are a nice change. They are light and they fit into most .90 sized models with ease.

Still, my heart lies in flying the old pattern ships. Sigh...<G>

I admit to being an OS nut. When flying pattern seriously I found that the OS 2 and 4 stroke motors made sense to me while I couldn't get a YS to run more than three times in a row without an overhaul. I also ran and still have an ST Bluehead, a Webra .61 RE Racing, several OS .61 FSR's but the coolest is the OS blower motor. I mean really, a Roots blower on a 1.20 4C model engine? It was wonderful! As for American mills, several Fox mostly for c/l use, a couple of K&B outboard boat motors. I recall the K&B .40 pumper was an excellent engine. Honestly though, I'm hard pressed to find an an American made engine I can use in competitive aerobatics. I think Nelson and Jett rule in speed circles but no one has taken the trouble to build one for pattern. They could, but no one has. I remember trying one season to get a pattern ship to the field that had all US made components. I couldn't do it. Ace had a decent enough radio but no one could supply an engine. Fox had one that would work in theory but they wouldn't talk to me about getting one to fly.

Rick H.

By the way Jeff, I have one of your Taurus'. If I can get time I'll use it in some SPA events like I swore I would do this season. It is a super super flying machine.

Thanks for the comments and compliments Rick. What engine have you put in your Primus? (See, there I go again...engines, engines, engines).

You might want to chime in on Skip's thread about his Primus build. He was interested to know what other guys were running in their Primuses.

I managed to destroy my Primus prototype two weeks ago (big tears, , boo hoo). So, if I ever get another one together I will probably go with one of the US made .61's. I'm leaning towards the RJL K.61, since I've already had Fox and K&B in them. 8178 is pretty keen on them and I saw Ron Morgan with one at the VR/CS show in Raleigh. Nice touch on the muffler.

Jeff,

Like 8178, I am a big fan of the RJL/Kraft .61 and own 3 of them. I just put new bearings in two of them and can tell you that MECCOA has a great shipping department with reasonable parts prices. I consider the Kraft .61 the best buy on the market in a .61 engine...I am a big FOX fan, and have a couple of their .60s that are older than I care to admit. You just have to follow the insturctions and they are darn near indestructable. As for the foreign engines, I am always in the market for a good used YS or an OS HANNO...... and they are around, you just have to find them

Sorry to hear about your protobird.... stuff happens when you manufacture airplane kits.....but I'm sure the next one will be a great bird too.

Dan

Carolina Custom Aircraft

I'm running an OS .61FX in it. It runs like a scalded dog and will fly the complete Master's or Expert or whatever the highest level SPA pattern is. I got the plane almost finished from one of our club members whose vision problems won't let him fly a plane that size. It was already set up for this motor so why change it? It's plenty of power and is different from the much more common OS .91 4c engines most of the SPA guys are running. It does some of the sweetest slow and point rolls. An interesting side note: The .91 FX is a bolt in replacement for the .61. I wonder how many people would notice if I put one of those in it? BTW, what is the story on your Kwik Fli III kit? I flew one of those as a kid along side my dad's Kaos. We competed occasionally at the RAMM's (Montgomery, AL) club pattern contests and did well. I wouldn't mind having another one.

Rick H.

You must own the Primus Brian and Don put together. Brian told me he was going to put an OS 61 on it. Are you the fellow of which he said "He was third at the NATs a few years ago and can fly a dishwasher if you could get it up to air speed."

Reckon a OS .91 can get that dishwasher up to speed?

I'll PM you on the Qwic-Fly.

Odd, it seems all my engines come in threes too! Somewhere I read that Lee designed the original K.61 for Kraft but I’m not sure if that is true. Some more images of the RJL K.61. Very nice casting work and finishing and a great value at $114.96! 1.8 HP too!

I don't know if I can still get a washing machine in the air. It takes at least a 1.20 to get one airborne and takes up all the room in the backof my pick-up. Yeah, I'm the guy Brian was talking about. I finished 3rd at the Nats my first time there and the guys that beat me are currently TOC class pilots. I think I even won a round against them. To keep it in perspective, the next time I went I finshed next to last. Preparation is everything and that's no joke. The one thing I remember about that Nats is that we all called for and helped each other out whenever needed even though we were neck and neck in the Nats. Pattern people are the best. I digress.....The Primus on your web site is Don Meyling's. I flew it a bit and liked it, did some set up work on it for Don. The other kit Brian bought, he built and sold to me. I haven't been able to put much time on it lately but it is trimmed up and flying beautifully. I've talked it up in different places because I am truly impressed with both the kit and the finished airplane. We did raffle the other kit at last year's SPA Masters. It's nice to see some capable airplanes out there that aren't Daddy Rabbits.

Rick H.

8178,
A very fine looking engine. I think the exhaust and intake caps are a nice touch. As for performance, do you know how this engine compares with imports (read OS 61) in the pattern? I also was looking at the "new" K&B's that Razor was talking about. I wonder how they compare to the favorite 2C pattern engines.

Rick,

Jett Engineering offers, and has offered for quite a while, engines specifically designed for sport flying and aerobatics. The Jett 90L, 100L and 120L are all "60" size engines that are incredible in "60/90" size aerobatic aircraft and pattern ships. Each of those is available in side or rear exhaust. The 100L and 120L are specifically designed for bigger props, lower rpms (9000-11000 range), while the 90L is pretty versitile..... Jett offers a version that turns 11,000 rpm (aerobatics), and that same engine reconfigured as a 90LX that turns up more in the 15,000-16,000 rpm range (speed/prop jets). All depends on your application.


This is a 100L combined with the turbo-jett muffler. 15x8 prop.

The Jett BSE FIRE-120L is an absolute monster of an engine. With a quite pipe, set long, it can turn some serious prop, and run with near linear throttle response.


As for the original topic and post.....

The American engine manufacturers are still out there. They are few and far between, but they endure.

The problem is, USA based manufacturers all have to deal with the alphabet gang: IRS, EPA, DoHS, DoC, INS, DWC, AFL, CIO, eieio.... Raw material and processed material costs here in the USA are some of the highest anywhere in the world. And, we have issues like insurance (huge cost), health care, works comp ...... and of course most folks in the USA like to eat and live in a house.

Obviously, there is cost involved with all of this that ends up part of the sale price of your product. FAR FAR more cost than incurred than by any "eastern" engine manufacture. As a result, the American made products must be A) Priced accordingly to deal with those incurred costs (expensive) B) Or, you have to compromise on design, and sometimes compromise on materials. C) MUST by their nature be superior products, and often geared toward specialty markets.

Where does that all lead? Well, first ..... it is nearly impossible for a USA based engine manufacturer to do business or even exist because of situation "A" - if you price the engines accordingly, an equal product provided from the east will end up costing less, even with high volume and the business owner choosing to eat rice and live in a tent. So you lose market share. If you follow path "B", you produce crap engines, and people are not going to buy them. Folks are no longer "buy american" type of guys. Impossible to stay in business.

The soloution for USA businesses, as Jett, Nelson, DA, and a few others have followed ...... is solution "C". People will pay for a superior product, if it is indeed superior, and there is an added value to product by way of tech support, warranty, quick parts availability.

Even the european engine manufactures have the same problem. Exchange rates vary, Department of Commerce policies change, tarrifs change, favored nation status changes.... Its hard to set a price point. In the end, the guys in the 'east' building and shipping engines, somehow, for $20 each (when the materials here in the USA ALONE would be $40 - an example only) are hard to compete with as long as people decide to buy them.

In most cases, those "eastern" engines are very good products. So, I can not at all argue against buying one. And the average sport pilot is going to look at the name on the box, and the price tag, then ask his flying buddies of their experiences, and make his decision based on that.

Companies/engines like Fox and K&B are still around, but have undergone serious changes in the past 10 years. They added some product introductions, and I believe both companies have "other" profitable business ventures that at least permit them to maintain the model aircraft product line. Some of the engines are the same, but the folks behind the desks are totally different. And the CNC machining helps keep some of the product costs reasonable. The K&B engines are still pretty good products that perform very well. The Fox engines are not bad - but in all honesty, the RC engines they offered for many years (mainly due to their carbs) were unreliable, even if they were powerful on the top end.

The RJL/Kraft engine is a good example of an older design that endures. Its a good engine. But its an old design.

Anyway.... thats enough .....

Bob

When I was building my Cold Duck I did a lot of research to find a non-piped 61 engine that was powerful, had a small case, was good quality and was readily available with spare parts. Cost was not a major factor in the research. The RJL became the clear choice over all others because of its quality, power, size and availability. The K&B twist head, although very powerful and small lost out because the disassembly issue of the twist head.

The RJL K.61 http://www.mecoa.com/rjl/k61/k61.htm is rated at 1.8 HP and 15,500 RPM and the current offing from OS http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXBY46&P=0 is the 61 FX Non-Ringed rated at 1.9 HP at 16,000 RPM. HP ratings are little hard to compare especially when the OS needs another 500 RPM to get the .1 HP over the K.61.

The K.61, at 20.3 oz with muffler, is 3.3 oz lighter than the OS FX and the K.61 uses the small 39 mm wide motor mount as well. The RJL has a two year warranty, same as the OS. I prefer the smaller K.61 case over the OS because it makes it easer to fit in the classic airframes that usually were engineered for the smaller case engines. Cutting 3.3 oz off the nose and total weight of the aircraft is a plus as well. The K.61 fits perfectly in the front of my Cold Duck that has very little room for the engine because it was designed for a Veco 61. I did move the firewall back ¼” because most of the engine choices are longer than the Veco.

My Cold Duck is 5 lb 7.5 oz and the K.61 with a Rev-up Pro Series 4 11-7 1/2 prop hauls it like a ballistic rocket! Lucky for me my Rev-up props last for decades!

And to top this all off the K.61 is $45 less than the OS! But the OS engines are very good and I have a bunch of them too.

8178,
Like Jeff I too am a bit of an Engine nut, and from what I have read on this thread the RJL 61 is must have! In one of your previous posts. you mentioned it was available for $114.96. I checked Randys' site at Mecoa and it is considerably more? Did I misunderstand your post?
John

You know, the Kraft is really the ideal choice for my UFO. It's nose heavy with the Tower .61 and a very tight fit. I could add some wood back around the engine cut-out and move the battery pack forward over the CG with the Kraft. Anyone want a NIB, never run Tower .61?

Bob, it's an interesting twist of fate when you consider that many people credit the US with inventing inexpensive, mass production and typically think of imports as being the expensive, high-performance precision products.

Also, it appears from my US point of view that model engine production within Japan must be a very fierce and extremely competitive industry to succeed in. You have OS that does almost all the 2-stroke production (Enya isn't a major player in our 2-stroke market, anyway, due to distributors. They probably sell more in Japan and Europe) and Saito that only does 4-stroke production. That seems like greater industry monopolization than what we see here in the US. Except, perhaps, at the very high end of competition-only engines. But, then again, that's not a matter of ruthless business practices but rather a matter of only a couple of people wanting to actually do it, so you can't technically call it monopolization.

That is the http://www.sheldonshobbies.com/listing/rjl.html price. With the UK pound you get it for ½ price too!

How does the RJL compare to the HP Gold Cup .61? I have one of these and it is one powerhouse.

According to Mecoa's web site it is rated at 2.2 hp (ABC) or 2.1 hp (Ring). One of the most powerful of the mass produced .61 engines, US or foreign. Is it US made or Austrian?

My experience with the gold cup .61 , is that it performed nearly identical to the OS FSR .61

Same props, about the same rpm, and about the same performance on a pipe.

The RJL was a step below the FSR .61 - not by much, but noticable. Some of that had to do with the carb at the time.

Bob,
That is a bunch of great information that puts it into persepective for those of us on the other side of the coin. I have two questions: what is the Jett .61 equivalant to a sport flyer/novice pattern flyer and exactly what do you mean by an "old design" vs your new design? I know there are appearances, carburation, and scavenging - anything else?

Do you guys only sell direct or are there retailers too?

Mainly when I refer to an older design, it has more to do with materials, and how they are applied. And to some extent the manufacturing capability as it was - as oppose to what is now available to hold tigher tolerances, cut intricate shapes and such. The basic knowledge of what an engine is, how to design one, and optimize it has been around for a number of years. Dub will be the first to tell you he learned a great deal from guys like Duke Fox.

Also, remember that mufflers were an oddity back in the 60s and early 70s. Some engines, and their carbs, were developed to run open exhaust, with the use of an exhaust baffle to aid in idle performance. Carbs tende to be small, tight venturi's were helpful- no muffler pressure to help out So as time went on, some of the designs were tweeked to incorporate a muffler, but sometimes they didnt do much to change the carb. So I guess you could consider these 'transitional' engines as older designs. A good example here is a ST G-60 with PDP porting. As time went on, many developed into real nice power plants.

The Kraft 61 was one of the first steps at building a good, schnurle ported engine, designed for a muffler or pipe, from the ground up. The Webra Speed .61 and original Rossi 60 were huge leaps in performance as well.

At the moment, Jett does not make a .61 (10cc) full size engine. The larger 'big block' engines are .76 up to the 1.20 (Dub at one time did build a few big block .61 engines as special order). However, Jett does make the 60L engines. These are "40" size engines. Can be set up for either speed, or torque, or something in between, depending on how you wish to use one. A standard SJ-60L with the jett-stream muffler would be ideal for most larger .40 size sport planes, and for smaller pattern planes. For example, some of the older designs like the Phx 5 and Intruder that once used the ST53 engine are ideal applications for an engine like this. Even with an un-tuned muffler, the engine puts out great power for its size.

The Jett engines are sold direct only. Its the only way found so far to provide the best product support and service. Dub knows who bought the engine, and many of the engines are configured for special applications. Not quite custom built, but they are assembled to order.

Bob I stand well and truly corrected. I had no idea your product line has gotten this extensive. You can bet I'll be looking into it further. I really need to get out more.

Rick H.

No problem. Folks still consider that Jett makes racing engines. And Dub does. But that is just a sideline business these days Far more SJ-50 and SJ-90L engines go out the door than any of the racing engines.