Hey guys, pretty much as the title says, I'm hunting for old pattern 60's;

I'd especially like an OS 61VF, or a rossi 60 with their proper tuned pipes.

Why? Well, I figure if I'm going to go senior pattern I can't do it with a new motor,

Hi, I was recently given a pattern plane that needed some TLC. I think it is a SIG King Cobra, but am not sure. The plane is equipped with an OS .61V engine running a tuned pipe about 12 inches long. The plane has air retracts, don't know what brand. I recovered the fuselage and painted the wing. I flew it once and decided the plane was way too fast for me. I like slow flying fun fly types of planes. If interested, a super deal can be made as I have no use for the plane. What is this monster worth....I have no idea. The plane is located in western Iowa. Thanks.

I don't think a King Cobra is SPA legal, but then again I don't know why someone from Australia would care. If they start a similar club they can make up their own rules.

I picked up a Phoenix 7 [X(] as shown with a nice swept back wing and long fuselage. It's powered by a Super Tigre blue head .60 with factory SuperTigre header and pipe. The engine has a Perry pump kit installed too that replaced the stock backplate. All wheels retract. What's a package like this selling for? Does this qualify for the pattern class? I doubt I'll fly this one.

Sig never kitted a pattern plane, other than the ancient Astro Hog. The one mentioned is a sport plane, like the Kougar.

I had an OS .61 VF. I'd hold out for a rear exhaust Rossi or YS, were I the OP.

Don't forget the Sig Komet

Ron

Rendegade, I just sold an engine to a guy in Australia. The current United States Postal Service (USPS) Global Parcel Post rates are amazingly affordable. I think it only cost $16 US to get the engine delivered in 4-6 days (UPS quoted $104.xx). As an example, Tower Hobbies charges $8 to ship across a few states.

My point is that you can easily buy engines from US sellers through ebay and get them to use USPS Global Parcel Post to ship it quick and cheap. Good luck.

Though Sig lists the Cobra, and Kougar as sport planes, they are in fact pattern planes. The larger Kougar and King Cobra are fairly common in the lower pattern classes, at least in some regions. Yes I know you don't have to use a pattern plane in regular pattern clases. But a trainer is not competitive and these airplanes are. Maybe not the best but better than most novices can fly.

I think the Sig Komet was marketed as a pattern plane, though it was no better when it was produced.

Artisan,
Actually, I think SIG did kit one little known pattern plane as I have an original tattered kit and half built plane...it's the Simco. Looks like their answer to the Kwik Fli and Kaos planes. I plan to reverse engineer it and try to build one from scratch. I obtained it last year from an old modeler friend of mine.

The King Kobra and the Comet were both pattern airplanes

I was just ready to add that yes Sig had a pattern plane as Jeff said the Simco, as a matter of fact i have a nib kit of one i got from my father who won it as a door prize at a club picnic.

I would like to point out that Bridi has always listed the Chaos series as sport planes. These fly just like the older Kaos series which were originally kitted as pattern planes. The Ultra Sport has always been marketed as a sport plane, but is actually a better pattern plane than the Kaos, thanks to its deeper fuse and foward canopy, which improves knife edge. The Ultra Sport is also (or has been) fairly popular in the lower classes of modern pattern.

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That too was a sport low wing. Maxey Hester was never a pattern ship designer, that I know of.

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It was marketing hype to call any model with a low mounted wing a pattern ship back in the Seventies, but that did not make it true.

I won my first pattern contest while flying a Bridi Trainer Sixty. Does that make it a pattern ship too? <G>

This is just a matter of semantics, but it used to tick me off when folks would invest their money in a mislabled sport plane and then suffer great disappointment when they discovered that their "pattern ship" wasn't capable of performing an advanced class pattern (point rolls, knife-edge flight) because of design problems that no true pattern ship possessed. Some folks expect manufacturers to be honest and they take their marketing hype literally.

The Kougar is one of the most miserable flying models that I have ever encountered and is about as far from a real pattern ship as one can get. I think the Butterfly II could kick its tail in a pattern contest on a calm day.

So now you say the Kaos is not a pattern ship? I guess Joe Bridy's pattern wins doesn't count?

I have never flown either the Kougar or Komet, but I suspect some pattern fliers would disagree with you.

Just for the record IMO, The Sig King Kobra was never sold as a pattern ship, but a sport flyer. It was designed for a 60 size motor. It had a tricycle gear and lines of a Jet.

But...I Built one from a kit and moved the main gear forward and used retracts. Dumped the nose wheel. Added 1/2 inch to the Height of the rudder and added 3/8" to the length of the rudder control surface. Split the elvator and used a split wire push rod, and pull pull for the rudder. Installed a Rossi .61 RE with a tuned pipe down the top of the Fuse with one support clamp/bracket, no cowling.

I tell you this, in 1981 I was flying advanced with the best of them using that plane. I was told numerous times that the King Kobra was not for pattern Until they saw it fly.

The King Kobra and the Comet flew just as well as the Kaos and Super Kaos and would complete in any pattern contest of the era.

A Kougar is one of the best flying 40 sized airplanes I have flowm. I have owned two and have two more kits in the wings. My dad has had three and swears by them.

I'd like to see a butterfly do an outside loop.

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I never said or implied that the Bridi Kaos is not a pattern ship. How did you come up with that conclusion?

Here is why the stock Sig Kougar is a miserable flying ship in pattern (granted, it depends upon your class):

The rudder on the Kougar is above the thrust and wing centerlines. This provides lots of left roll while providing right yaw when right rudder is applied. Bad, bad, bad.

The Kougar foam wing cores are cut with wash-out included, whether you want it or not. When upright, this is a good thing. When flying three outside loops in the old pattern you entered from the inverted flight position. What was wash-out is now wash-in. Result? Snaprolls at the high G point of the maneuvers. 0 points for the maneuver.

I'm not challenging you, or trying to say you're wrong. I don't play that game. We're just talking here.

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I suspect that you would have won or placed high while flying any four channel model, Mike. Piloting skills makes the difference. I know a fellow that used to win in the Advanced Class regularly while flying an oil soaked OS.40FSR powered Sterling Fledgling. He was one of my local heroes for doing so.

You implied that a sport plane is not a pattern ship. I understand the Kougar was good for the novise and perhaps the sportsman catagory. But not sure if thats true now, this was when they had no outside loops and no inverted manuvers. You might have to ad a touch of positive aileron in stall turns, to counter the negative roll from the rudder.

Yawn....

You may be right, jpetro.

Sig was always more of a sport and scale model company. Maxey Hester and Claude McCullough (sp?) tried to widen their offering of products, but they did it from a scale designer's perspective. At least that was my interpretation. Their models weren't really competitive in other areas.

For some reason, every low wing model that was offered for sale in the Seventies was advertised as being a pattern model. Only those not in the know would have made such a claim - non pattern fliers. This is not to say that lots of those models weren't used for practicing/learning the various patterns or that they were not flown in pattern contests successfully, as Sport Pilot pointed out, but they would never be truly competitive in the higher classes. So, at least to me, they were never really to be considered "pattern ships".

We're just talking here. Disagreement is fine. Vocalize and say why you agree or disagree. I might learn something. At the very least I will be pleasantly entertained.

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The Bridi Kaos was indeed a bona fide pattern ship. It is not in the same class as the Sig Kougar, it is a much better flying model. The Kaos was a good pattern trainer and a wonderful model to sport fly. It is, in fact, my favorite R/C model of all time. I bought the original plans from RCM Plans service, just before they went toes up.

No, a sport plane is not a pattern ship. That should be obvious.

Why fly a Kougar and do all the stick contortions to make it behave, when you can buy/build a Super Kaos 40 and fly it like a real pattern ship without all of the necessary compensation? The Super Kaos 40 will kick the Kougars tail every time, with all else being equal. I'm sure there are plenty of other models that will do an even better job than the Super Kaos 40. In fact, today's Kaos ARF offered by Tower Hobbies is an excellent starting point for those wanting to get into traditional pattern flying with minimum building effort. I agree that the Ultra Sport 40 is an excellent model too for learning pattern flying. Too bad it went by the wayside.

Every Kougar I ever flew that was built true flew just fine inverted and in outside loops. Mine flew like they were on a wire.

That may be so, but the Kaos and later Chaos is marketed as a sport plane not a pattern ship. I think I made a misstatement in my last post. Maybe when it was first produced it was considered a pattern ship. I thought the King Cobra was close but not the same performance. I was thinking the Kouger was a smaller version with some minor changes. Guess I was wrong.