Mike what do you mean by " 3 pattern within each "?

Why not do four classes Novice, Sportsman, Expert, and Masters? Engine size
limit, cutoff year for aircraft and No Pipes for Novice, Engine size limit and cutoff
year for aircraft for Sportsman. Aircraft size limit for Expert and anything goes
for Masters

Ron

Absolutely positively pipes required in novice!!!!!!!! In fact I suggest a radar gun and if the novice's plane doesn't break 140 mph, they're disqualified!LOL

Too many rules. This should be about pattern, speed, cool planes and fun. Not hamstringing a guy due to a bank account issue.

-M

I was joking in my previous post.

I like 3 in each, 2 classes. That's already breaking people into 6 groups. if participation is staggering, maybe we could add a 4th class within.

-Mike

by the way, in case you're all wondering where the name came from and how far back this idea goes, click this [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_372093/anchors_372111/mpage_1/key_ballistic%252Cpattern%252Cassociation/anchor/tm.htm#372111]link[/link] and check the dates [8D]

I never thought that term would catch on like it has....hehe.

-Mike

aug is when my field has an open date no more than one event closing the field per month, aug is after the ama nats which a majority of the people that have committed to fly at my fields contest will be flying in, aug gives those that say they want to fly a chance to get something together, steve byrum held a couple of spa events with a open class and there were only a few takers that showed to fly maybe there wasn't sufficient warning for people, maybe people talk the talk but don't walk the walk another reason for not limiting ourselves right out of business the more that show the regardless of variation in engine and wing size (within reason) the better, aug is when real pattern pilots like to fly. lol. aug,aug, aug,aug,aug,augaug,aug,aug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!


but if someone else has a earlier date in mind at there field i am willing to listen



gary

No question.. retracts are mandatory.....I'm good w/the 72" limit...what about banning tail draggers????? LOL


Dan

Carolina Custom Aircraft

Okay, I'm online with you now. I don't konw about todays fliers but if
I remember correctly back in the 70's & 80's most of your pattern fliers
were in the two lower classes and then the numbers dropped off in the
upper class. So maybe the expert class should be dropped. I think you
would get a better showing of fliers if the BPA is kept simple at first.

Ron

Ron......heads up......

I know for a fact that Joe Walker, Ryan McLaughlin and....Jason Shulman are interested in this. No BS, they'll do it. SPA just dodged one heck of a bullet and they don't even know it LOL These guys are top level FAI pattern competitors. Some of the rest of us aren't too shabby either. Not near thier level, but we can fly a bit. Not trying to be condescending, but these guys actually compete regularly....and they're young, and can freakin flat out FLY.....and they need a top class. I for one know how bad Joe would kick my tail, because he's flown ballistic style up until like....this year. And it has always worked for him, nobody does it better. That doesn't mean I won't have fun TRYING to beat him!!!!

My thought is just to make it pretty wide open so we attract all of the people and planes who for whatever reason have been left out of AMA and SPA competition because the planes they really like to fly won't work in either.

I'm lucky I guess, I love both. My priority is AMA pattern, for many reasons. It's feeding my kids right now, and thanks to the great guys in AMA pattern, and I do mean the best guys in the world, we're doing better than we have in quite some time. But I for one would love this as a break. I really wanted to do SPA for years, but just simply put, I can't get behind the rules. They are too strict in my personal opinion, and to exclusive. I am a creative person. I am looking for an outlet that doesn't add stress. this looks like that outlet. just what the doctor ordered, and that is probably more of a literal sense than you know.

Guys, this is it. Look at that link I posted, and note the dates. The iron was hot and we let it die on the vine. The time to do this is now, because we have active, traveling competitors involved. I for one look forward to the first contests, and the first empty green bottles over this one!

-Mike

"Celebrities" (I know, a relative word) do draw attention. That could only be a good thing for a fledgling org.

Hi Everyone,

What I want is to try to get everyones ideas on how this should be formed. I do not want to just make up some rules that will resrtict others from flying. There are places for people to fly within the SPA, as well as current modern airframes. I was hoping to get people who wanted to fly older designs but not limit or exclude people that have already been excluded. Example: If you had to put in .91 4S in your Curare and make it fixed gear to compete, you are sort of excluded from building it as originally designed. But here you could build it with retracts, a pipe, and whatever power you wanted to. Now could you compete with your Curare 4S fixed? Sure why not. maybe you fit into the Masters class or something. Not 100% sure, but this is sort of a club by the people, for the people thing. I have read all of the posts, and there is some really good discussions going on and a great framework being developed. I do not want to set rules or classes too early, as we may not take into account all opinions.

The other thing is not sure if we wanted to do something within the AMA or if we have to. Say we come up with a bunch of memebers, and want to hold contests, does anyone know if we need any paperwork? I really didn't expect this sort of turnout, but I am glad people are being friendly, enthusiastic, and having a good time developing this!

it would have to be sanctioned as a fun fly event, low priority. It is not an AMA rulebook event. We would be, for all intents and purposes, a special interest group.

I think the framework we have laid out is a great place to start. Any objections?

We're talking 2 classes, 3 schedules of difficulty in each. One is for classic planes like Tipos etc, the other is for the planes from the early-mid 80s to the 72" turnaround designs, 1.20 size limit, anything goes. And this is just a loose reference.

What I'd like to see is right now, pick it apart, find the flaws so we can ajust before we rule ourselves into a hole with unintended consequences. Being a competition by nature, we have to have some rules, I'd just like to see them kept extremely general.

I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, just been rolling this one in my head for almost 5 years so now I'm excited

-Mike

Also, I'd like to add that if there is enough interest, I'd be willing to produce some nice CNC kits of a few of these planes. Cores, composites, the whole works.

And don't worry, I would NEVER infringe on someone else's intellectual property. (There's a joke in there somewhere?) I'd just need some assistance in getting permission. Just the stuff you can't get anymore.

or maybe not. I'll probably do it for myself though, just because.....well, I can and it would save me a lot of time....

-Mike

Why don't we have just one class instead of two? You could fly the "Tipos" against the "Desires" with this style of flying. It would greatly reduce the complexity when starting this organization. The diversity within the same class is what's going to make it so interesting (and surreal).

The way I proposed it, a tipo would be perfectly legal in the unlimited class, but a jekyll would not be legal in the classic class. That way those who wanted to fly thier classic planes against the more modern designs could, but those who wanted to keep to the old "classic" speed style would not be forced to fly against a Jekyll with a YS 120. Everybody wins.

That's the way I see it. I plan to compete in both classes.

-Mike

I think someone here already mentioned that how the maneuvers are judged will have a lot to do with what designs do better than others.

That almost seems more important than defining the whole displacement/span/date thing. How will the maneuvers be judged? The way they were in the late '70s or the way they were in ther late '80s? That could very easily determine which designs will be competitive and which ones won't.

Those are good thoughts, I'd like to reiterate that I would be against defining classes based on certain airplanes being legal or illegal. We need to let the competitors think for themselves based on the maneuvers and flying style required.

I would like to design a new airplane using the style of aerodynamics popular in the 70's and 80's, would I be able to compete with it provided it fit the guidelines? Or am I stuck with only a published airplane from those time frames? At a competition, in those years there was nothing stopping a flier from cooking up his own design provided it fit into the basic criteria. Don't get me wrong, I like vintage, but it's the vintage aerodynamics that's the interesting part.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I have a YS .61 with a pipe sitting here ready to go in a period design, but I'd like to do my own design.

Cheers

Bruce

I would make the limit 13 cc. A metric number and just under .8 CI. I kinda expect the .75's to grow a bit in size. But there will always be some .61 sized.

May I send a comment from the other side of the atlantic?

Since being a boy, I admired the fast, fast pattern planes. I am born 1967. I always loved the sound of tuned pipes, tricyle landing gears, retracts, and designs with little swept back wings... and so I still do today! I am happy to see there is quite a number of people enjoying the same thing.

But - many of us moved to bored out engines, just for the reason to have more power - you never can have enough power, insn´t it? Although there are still enough good .61 engines available, I would not restrict displacement to 10cc for two-strokes. .Webra sells the .61 RE Racing in a new edition, slightly modified. The very nice MVVS are available in .61 and .77 displacement. Yes, 13cc or .80 would be a good choice. If you go hunting a little in Ebay, you will find whatever two-stroke engine you need. You still get new O.S. 61 RF´s...

Your opinion please: This plane is a Topp Tempest, a german design of 1974 (so it tells on the plans). It has retracts, about 64" wingspan, and I am powering it by a Webra .60 Speed with tuned pipe. Would this be a candidate?

I have a design that was done here locally in HSV. in about 1991 named "Talon" using the Desire airfoil thinned down about 1/8 in. the plane calls for a YS 91. there were 5 or 10 built around here years ago boy did that thing ZOOOOOOOOOM. I believe it had some pitching problems that were never worked out, any how, if you start limiting by engine size you eliminate alot off potential competitors and planes I say again wing span self regulates engine size!


gary

----------------


I was a real pattern pilot before old age and bad health caught up with me. I never said I was a very good pattern pilot. But if enthusiasm and spending bucks counts, I was right up there with the very best.

I'll see you guys around the campus. You'll be able to spot me by the Rascal 110 I'll be flying, off to the side and all alone. My trusty ASP 1.80 putt-putt will be thumping away, not furiously, mind you, and I'll be flying the old, unrecognizable pattern sequence alone.

Just be careful that you don't get some errant blood clots, or you'll be ordering a Rascal 110 also. In fact, you better mention to your Doc that you should start Plavix treatment to forestall the inevitable. []

Has everyone forgotten that most BPA enthusiasts are entering old age now? Might I suggest that summer heat might have a lot to do with low attendance figures in the SPA also? Or has the SPA, and now the BPA, been hijacked by youngsters in good health and to hell with the old farts whose dues really support the organization? And, and - what was I talking about?

I guess there comes a time when we really should forget the past and live in the present.

(This is supposed to be humorous, folks. Relax)

So what plane and set up do some of you have RTF if there was a contest early next year??

OR what are you currently working on?


gary

-------------------


Back in the day, I always thought it was insulting to judge a takeoff or a landing. If you made the takeoff, you competed, if you didn't, all was moot. We should hope that anyone that is a competent enough pilot to fly in an aerobatics competition would have the takeoff and landing down pat. Let's not resume judging these two maneuvers. That permits either kind of landing gear without penalty.

Having an Unlimited Class will make everyone else feel like a junior, second class participant. Let's keep the displacement to .61 with a pipe, .75 with a muffler. Let's make the four-strokes the same displacement as the two-strokes. Atmospherically respirated four-strokes can use .75 CID. Supercharged YS four-strokes, or any other supercharged four-stroke, you never know, can use .63 CID.

No electrics. This is a classic type of event.

As you can see, the more I think about it, the less in favor I am of larger displacements and expensive engines. Let's keep this a flying skill event. Not a money event.

I was a real pattern pilot before old age and bad health caught up with me. I never said I was a very good pattern pilot. But if enthusiasm and spending bucks counts, I was right up there with the very best.

I'll see you guys around the campus. You'll be able to spot me by the Rascal 110 I'll be flying, off to the side and all alone. My trusty ASP 1.80 putt-putt will be thumping away, not furiously, mind you, and I'll be flying the old, unrecognizable pattern sequence alone.

Just be careful that you don't get some errant blood clots, or you'll be ordering a Rascal 110 also. In fact, you better mention to your Doc that you should start Plavix treatment to forestall the inevitable.

Has everyone forgotten that most BPA enthusiasts are entering old age now? Might I suggest that summer heat might have a lot to do with low attendance figures in the SPA also? Or has the SPA, and now the BPA, been hijacked by youngsters in good health and to hell with the old farts whose dues really support the organization? And, and - what was I talking about?

I guess there comes a time when we really should forget the past and live in the present.

(This is supposed to be humorous, folks. Relax)






Sorry for the august date it is whats available at my field, Sweating like a pig seems to be a common theme at any pattern event AMA, SPA, BPA. but there is a over hang (or hang over) that will accommodate more flyers than will probably show.


gary

NAh.... we will keep the "old farts" around for your knowledge. AND the good company too!!!