Thanks Jeff - I was hoping you would get in here, as you do fly from the inside, left seat. With zero wind and no gust's, I have slowed this Intruder down and turned tight, no stall. Never a problem.

This was up at the contest you were also at, first Florida SPA/BPA. I was flying the Intruder nose heavy at that time, not that it is making any difference with the wind, etc. Maybe it did.
Since then, I have corrected the CG, since I re-built it, and now easier to fly. Couple pictures from that contest.

Vince

If I utilize flaperon's with barn door ailerons, vs. strip ailerons, what is the effect ? Is washout used on wingtips anymore ?

So are all we know-it-alls secret full-scale pilots?

The aircraft is flying in reference to the air, not the ground. Lets exadurate it a bit. for effect Say the plane is flying into a 100 mph headwind, and has a top speed of 100 mph so its standing still with an airspeed of 100 mph and ground speed of 0. it now turns downwind. Its airspeed is still 100 mph, and ground speed is now 200 mph. IF you were in the plane, you would not feel any acceleration because none takes place - relative to the air. Nor will it accelerate relative to the ground - it will appear to gain 100 mph during the turn at a rate proportional to its turn rate. IF the plane does 360 deg turns in this same 100 mph wind it will make a circle in reference to the air - and long button hooks to an observer on the ground. The wind does not cause any acceleration if it remains constant. The inertia reference is the atmosphere, not the ground. The only time the airspeed will change due to the wind is if the wind changes direction/speed. An increase in tailwind will accelerate the plane and at the same time reduce the airspeed. Aircraft can stall at any airspeed due to banking and loading factors.

Flaperons on barndoors (inset) ailerons vs strips? Dunno, all I know is what the glider guys do, and that is flaps on the inner panels, going down and crow on the ailerons, going up. Both are for drag control. If you was to try anything on the inset type it would have to be in an up sense only, as with sufficient down you could stall the tips at any speed. Strips? Can't see any advantage, better to have separate flaps and ailerons. Do some of us fly full size? Bears do stuff in the woods? I detect some old PPL's in this forum...
Evan WB #12.

I have to disagree here. In a full scale airplane, the turn takes long enough that inertial effects are negligeable, the second or two of inertial adjustment is nothing compared to the time to make a turn. In a model, however, they are not. If you took a model and turned it slowly, so the turn of 90 deg or 180 deg took even 10 or 20 seconds, then I agree the inertial effect would not be a factor. However, we turn in a second or less sometimes. This is the difference.

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Not unless you count renegade no license, no instructor, teach yourself flying (nope, no crashes) in the Arizona desert nearly fifty years ago.

Did I say that out loud? <G>


Ed Cregger

hey, i had 1 (ONE!) instruction from an experienced pilot before taking my plane back out to the sticks where i grew up. fortunately my enya .19 would die shortly after takeoff so my many attempts to get airborne would end up being a short controlled glide/landing. i did that so many times i was able to learn a lot before i figured out how to get the engine to run reliably. of course, then the crashes started. but i largely taught myself to fly that way.

david

While neither classic nor vintage in the sense of this forum, I do have a HydeOut which is set up with spoilers. A small amount of down elevator is mixed in with the spoilers and there is no noticeable transition or jump as the spoilers deploy. But the plane does slow down better. Without them it will float a long way. With them deployed the landing is much more manageable.

Jeff
Skylane N9214G
SPA 243

Try these two thought experiments. The physics of this are identical to a boat circling in a river current. An observer from the shore will see oblong loops while the boat circles the same spot in the water. the boat sees no acceleration due to a constant current while turning or otherwise. The only time the boat is affected/accelerated by the current is when it is launched for the shore - the earth reference. Once the current accelerates the boat to its speed the boat may as well be sittng in a bathtub. It's circling the same spot in a moving current. An observer in the boat will see the shore moving and will have no sense of motion without being able to see the shore.

We could also imagine walking back and forth inside a moving railroad car. with the train at a steady velocity you would feel no different acceleration walking back and forth inside the moving car than if the car were stationary. I fly the left seat as well - cubs taylorcrafts, etc with stall speeds slow enough that a 20 mph wind will be just under half the stall speeds of these old timers. Turning from crosswind to downwind at 60 mph indicated would stall the ship in a 20 mph crosswind, and turning in lesser winds would deffinately show up on the airspeed indicator. This does not happen. The confusion lies in the fact that we are observing from one reference and the plane is in another - the moving atmosphere - which has no connection to the earth reference. The trick with this thinking is that the inertial reference that the plane sees is the atmosphere- and the atmosphere cares not a whit what the earth reference is doing. From a stationary point in outer space we would see both the earth and the atmosphere references. A spot on the ground would be moving at over 1000 mph at the equator when observed from space, and Mr spaceman would be going 1000 mph in the opposite direction as seen from earth.

I think the situations you guys are describing are due largely to bank angles at low airspeed and PERCEIVED changes in altitude as the plane traverses the landing pattern. Gravity always pulls in the same direction (toward the planet). When you bank sharply, the plane's lift vector (which may be already marginal) is now operating at an angle, and not directly opposing the pull of gravity. Also, as the plane plane turns upwind, its perceived rate of descent increases as the ground speed decreases, so often the pilot instinctively pulls more UP ELEVATOR, which kills more speed, and suddenly gravity takes over. Anytime I lose the engine on a flight, I keep mentally repeating to myself "nose down - wings level". In the old days, some of my pattern buddies used to kid me about being banished to the sailplane competitions, as I seemed to have an ability to really drag the plane back to the runway on deadstick landings. I still remember a couple of new pattern birds that "fell out of the sky" during my early days!

Gear up, and on the pipe!

Perception is the key to keeping the ground-based pilot controlling a flying rather than falling aircraft. I could not agree more. Piloting a aircraft from the ground is much more difficult than piloting one from within, because of the two distinct references we are forced to deal with. My final thought on attempting to provide a good explanation is this - there is no "absolute reference " - The air moves in reference to the ground, and the ground moves in reference to the air. Inertia is generated in the reference the object is within. If we keep our minds on airspeed rather than groundspeed we may be able to keep our ships in one piece a bit longer.

BTW - in a glide we are much better off to put the nose down a bit more rather than try to "stretch the glide" by pulling back - increasing the AOA causes higher drag and a steeper glide angle. Done this many times in Cubs.

All has been said at least twice, but carry on posting, it's too funny.

It was not intended as humor. Was that a "flame"? Having taught college level aeronautical engineering - and having practiced in the field for 30 years may have given me an edge in this discussion. My intent was to be informational, and hopefully helpful, in keeping your birds in one piece as many out there are confused on these points. I am done with the physics lecture, and this thread.

But it was funny!

That WAS intended as humor.

This is what I was hoping for.

This was NOT my intention.

Information on my lecturing, flight practice, and intents, on request.