Duane:

I also think that Retracts look cool. My first retract plane was the Tiger Tail in 1975 and then a Moidwest Mach 1 in 1977 so that is the only reason I will install them. When I was a Jr. member of the R/C Propbusters (1970's under age 19) they had a combination pattern and scale contest at Waterford, CT every year. Most all the planes had 61's and retracts. I remember seeing guys like Tony Bonetti, Ed Izzo, Phil D'Ostilio and the New York guys and occasionally Dave Brown and the Ohio guys would come to some of the local area meets and fly the patterns back then with the wheels up and it stuck in my mind forever. I always figured that if you had a pattern plane it had to have retracts. Those days truly are the meaning of Classic Pattern to me.

As far as the SPA flying they will stay down and unlike Jim Hamiltons full scale ride we don't have a gear down speed restriction to deal with. They really don't hinder the performance at all. I have a Vic Koenig Dirty Birdy I am finishing with an OS 91FS (got it from Jim Hamilton) and fixed gear with wheel pants taildragger style. Should be another great flyer.

Peace

Mark O

Everybody has their own frame of reference that they identify with, and whatever that is seems "RIGHT" to them. My frame of reference goes back to before I ever flew any airplane. I was about 13 to 15, and saw all the pioneers such as Kazmirski, De Bolt, Don Lowe, Ed Izzo, (that you mentioned), Jim Kirkland, Ed Keck, and others fly at the Detroit Invitational, which at the time was one of the major contests on the circuit. Tom Brett and his Perigee was a member of my club. I watched them fly back when there was no such thing as retracts....that was the norm. The photo of Don Lowe's Phoenix 1 above was taken at that meet. The flying was beautiful, and as an impressionable young kid, it left memories for me that will stay with me, so to ME, flying without retracts is perfectly normal...especially in an organization that wants a low-tech, inexpensive competition format. I later saw plenty of planes with retracts, but I never got out of AMA Novice, (which of course did not allow retracts and pipes), so the "retract bug" never bit me personally, and my original frame of reference stayed intact. I got out of RC for many years, and when I returned, I gravitated back to those early pattern planes that impressed me so much when I was a kid.

SPA originally flew the kind of planes I identified with, planes like the Taurus, Quik Fly, and Kaos. They flew with wire gear, ane a 2-stroke 60 for power. Later the planes evolved within the legal date range more toward the end of that range. The original SPA rules however have not been modified because SPA leaders want the level playing field at the most basic level, (like the earliest days of pattern in the early to mid 60s).

Like I said, I can appreciate any kind of aerobatic flying, but my personal "sweet spot" is right in line with SPA, and the way it is set up. You are right...SPA competition IS a lot of fun, and you are not the only person who liked the pipes and retracts, but can also enjoy competition without them. We feel we have a set-up that works for us.

Duane

A year ago I bought a plane from a friend that I believed was SPA legal. It is called a Sunray and it is a Bipe tha has a stagger wing configuration with the bottom wing a gull shape. I bought the plane with a Hanno and a pipe and now realize that that is not legal. I will be danged if I am going to pull out the Hanno, it runs too sweet. I believe the option should be there for use of piped .60's. I know I am biased because of my situation but 1/2 of the nostalgia of the era is in those old screamiing motors!! I try to fly the current AMA patterns as well and can understand the desire to slow the plane to a more constant speed but to deny us the use of these motors in SPA seems to be contradictory to the spirit of the event to begin with. There is only one SPA event within a 500 mile radius of me now and I believe the more inclusive the rules the more likely for growth in contests and participation.

I understand what you're saying, and TRUST ME, the point has been made before.

Like I said earlier, there may some day be a major revision of SPA rules, but since it would greatly change the philosophy under which SPA was formed, it is not likely to happen soon...if ever.

If I were you, I would leave things exactly as you have them and enjoy your plane. You could even come to an SPA contest with it and try out the experience by flying Novice class, (you must fly an SPA legal plane in the higher classes). You would receive a certificate of participation. Your flights would not count towards final placement for awards, or national points standings.

"...Growth in contests and participation..." is what we're trying to do, but within the rules the organization has lived under since its beginning.

There are several SPA members from Texas, but not a formal chapter so far.

Beautiful BIPES.............enjoy them, and keep practicing

King,

Thanks for the kind words about the bipe. Mine is a little gaudy compared to the pics I stole from a previos post. I love the plane the way it is and you are right, I will fly her and enjoy every minute of it. I like the competition aspect of all pattern types, IMAC included, and am not hung up on placing well, just flying better. Being able to meet a lot of guys with similar interests is another reason to attend any pattern type event that is close enough. You can gleen all sorts of information from the guys and probably makes friends as well. I havent been able to make an SPA event yet. Didnt know of the one in FT Worth until it was too late but will attend next year if available.

A Great Planes 60 size Ugly Stik ARF and a Magnum 91 are legal but a plane from the era and powered by an engine from the era is not? Dont get me wrong. I dont want the Ugly Stik excluded and see the beauty in having ARF's available for competitors with modern power plants being used. This is another factor in having competitors and competitions. I would just also like to see the technology used at the time available for use as well. I wouldnt see the change as a major revision, just a tweek as it were. Hope I make sense but hey......

4u2nv-RCU,

I completely understand what your saying about the (4C)engines not being time correct. I know theysay it is all about the sound levels. I can make a 2 stroke very quiet using a pipe. Then you go to stretching designs to make them fly better with the heavier engine. It isn't a good solution IMHO. Please don't take it the wrong way, because I do like the fact that these older designs are being kept alive and even rekitted in some cases. We will all benefit from this. Perhaps if enough interest is shown, that something will allow the piped sixty to be in a pattern ship imagine that!

turbo

( spelling correction)

I certainly agree with the earlier comment along the lines that a fixed gear, taildragger Curare with a .91 fourstroke would be as far from "classic" as you could get although it does fit in the BPA rules (I think?). A taildragger should be built as a taildragger and a tricycle should be built as a tricycle.

That being said, I understand (I do not fly either SPA or BPA) that if you wish to build a Curare with a piped side exhaust .61 and retracts then by all means go ahead, just put on a standard muffler and leave the wheels down when you fly a SPA contest weekend.

I can completely understand that some older gents want two less things to worry about when it comes to flying their plane, they have probably tinkered to their hearts content in their younger days and now just want to flip a prop and fly a schedule. They don't want to have to be changing compression, plugs, nitro content, pipe length and prop size every time they fly at a new field (slight exageration but not unheard of).

I could build a piped Curare today with 2 aileron servos, 2 elevator servos, 2 flap servos, 2 speedbrake servos, rudder, throttle, retracts and in-flight mixture which would require a Futaba 12FG, 12ZA or heaven forbid a 14MZ :-)

I say good on the SPA for keeping it simple, even if at the expense of a little historical accuracy

I completely understand about the "lets get out of the pits and fly already" idea that keeping things simple has to offer also bjr. But what about the fellow who wants to tinker in the pits with a pipe or a set of retracts. They can be a pain and a lot of work, but for some the rewards for the efforts are just the same as building a plane in the first place. I just don't think it's fair not to include them since they do fly the same format.
Your not kidding when you mentioned the new tech. on the radios. I just downloaded a new update for my 14mz last night. That is a big advantage for what we do.
I don't really see a factor about noise. Is that an issue in the SPA? I haven't about that.


DM

I think we may be over-analyzing the issue in the last couple posts. I know that each of us is different, and we'd like to have the rules so that we can agree with all of them, but with the variety of pattern planes over the years, and the equipment on them, it's impossible to please everyone, and I'm not sure that's what Mickey Walker was trying to do in the first place when he started SPA back in 1991. Mickey was fed-up with the technology aspect of AMA pattern in the 80s through mid-90s, and finally dropped out like many others did. He later missed the competition and comaradrie of the contest, so he got together with like-minded folks that had watched pattern go from simple wire landing gear and stock engines with mufflers to quite advanced, (and expensive) high-performance planes and special version high performance engines. To be a top contender, you had to spend the money to keep up. He envisioned a simple...back to basics...competition like the early days of pattern. He purposely wanted to avoid the performance-enhancing "trappings" that came later...hence the birth of SPA. SPA was never intended to be all things for all people; a bunch of folks agreed with Mickey that technology had ruined AMA pattern, and had made it too tough and expensive to remain competitive, (admittedly cost is not the factor it was back then, but it is still a factor). Mickey's answer was to ARTIFICIALLY IMPOSE LIMITS, (similar to AMA Novice class) on ALL classes of competition to REMOVE the technology aspect from the competiton. The best pilot who "burned the most fuel practicing" won the competition since the planes were all very similar in performance. It's as simple as that.

Originally planes were flown exactly like the originals, but things evolve as conditions change. The small (not major) mods started when the 4-stroke was introduced...the plane was stretched 1-1/2 to 2 inches to help rebalance. Since, (and this is important), the emphasis is on COMPETITION with vintage planes, and not trying to make exact replicas of the original planes, a certain amount of experimentation came about as people"tinkered" with the planes to make a better flying plane FOR COMPETITION. For some people, this is actually part of the fun, to play a little with the design to see if there is improvement. The exact same thing was constantly going on in the 60s, (see Howard Thomb's plane in the attachment). An example...remember that many of the early planes, (including my King Altair), were designed before Knife Edge Flight was part of the pattern, (the SPA pattern maneuvers go all the way to 1-1-76), so rudders were changed fron the 45* angle of the early planes to vertical hinge lines. My King Altair has a vertical hinge line, but the airfoil, etc is the same. This makes small changes in the cosmetic appearance of the planes. LARGE changes, or SCALING-UP of smaller designs is not allowed.

Noise...I've heard all the arguements, but in the end, the PERCEIVED high-pitch whine of 2-stroke engines was irritating to surrounding landowners. Tuned pipes were not an option as they had already been excluded for the reasons I listed earlier. 4-strokes became the norm due to increased vertical performance as well as noise reduction. Now we're seeing some 2-strokes come back at contest sites where noise is not a problem because of better performance, plus some just like the old 2-stroke sound.

People are constantly trying new things...new planes from the legal list...new engines...new prop and fuel combinations etc. Now there is a return to the OLDEST vintage planes and renewed interest in the SPA "ANTIQUE" class of pre-1968 airplanes. As I said earlier, we will have at least one totally "antique" contest maybe two this season.

Please re-read some of the earlier posts. I hope I've helped explain the philosophy and thinking behind SPA, and why things are as they are.

As Mad Mark says....PEACE

Duane

Duane:

You keep showing us that picture of Don Lowe's Phoenix complete with the dowels and rubber bands and it sorta makes a guy think. I'm not a real swept wing guy but Phil Krafts Kwik Fli III from Jeffs kit with a Veco 61 and rubber bands might just be in the plans after the Tiger Tail experiment. That big old Hershey bar wing is nice and simple and some music wire out the bottom with Durbo Low Bounce wheels would be cool. I even have one of those old Veco "flow through mufflers" Ha Ha. Illlegal in all 50 states I'm sure.

I think that people are confusing the terms "Classic" and "SPA" we can all have classic planes and then have an SPA plane also. Hell half the fun is building so why not build both styles. More fun on the bench, both styles covered and still less cost than a single YS 170. A person could use the savings for gasoline to get to the field.

Have fun with that King and have a great time at your contest. I wish I could make it but not enough time and not enough money. I will shoot fot it next year. If I practice enough I should be a solid 5 pointer by then.

Peace

Mark O

Mark

I think of Clasic Pattern as it was first defined by 8178 back when he started this forum...pre Turnaround with engine limitations.
I think of SPA planes as the early part of "Classic Pattern" and the BPA planes as the later part of "Classic Pattern".

The attachment with the orange/white plane was a picture of Howard Thomb's Taurus with a mildly swept back wing to illustrate the fact that people were experimenting back then, and we still do somewhat in SPA, although not to that degree. I am not advocating putting a swept wing, putting a different wing or changine the airfoil on SPA-legal planes as a mod...that would be too great of a mod to make, and would NOT be SPA-legal. It was just an example of the fact that people like to experiment a little here and there. The allowed SPA mods, (generally called the "Duck Rule"..looks like a duck it IS a duck), state that the plane still must look like the original, and should not have major mods. BTW...I still remember Mr Thombs making a perfect landing directly out of a Split-S; it was cool to see...the plane flew great.

Asheville is on the outskirts of "SPA territory", and is not as well attended by the regulars as some of the other contests in the "heart" of the SPA core area, such as Atlanta or central Alabama. We have had a nice contest for the past two years, with lots of new Novice pilots, but to make a contest work, we need more of the Sportsmen, Experts, and Sr Experts. We may not continue, or the contest in Asheville may be every other year or something if we don't get enough attendance. Other than Florida, we are the farthest east of the contests, so I hope that we are getting known, and people will attend in spite of the gas prices.

I have a question which also deals with tuned exhaust systems. Unless I misunderstand SPA rules, it =IS= permissible to use the quarter wave tuned exhausts that come with the Jett or Rossi motors in SPA competition, but NOT the 1/2 wave long pipes (and headers) most guys associate the "tuned pipes" which are =NOT= legal, correct?

If that is true, I dont' understand the reasoning, other than one must often tune his header to match a particular muffler and prop. But from a performance standpoint, the 1/4 wave "muffler" (tuned pipe) is really in the same performance class as the 1/2 wave pipe.

Am I correct in this understanding of the SPA rules? Anyone care to clarify/justify this reasoning?

I believe it IS legal to use the stock muffler that comes with the Jett 2-stroke engine. The key is that it is a standard muffler for that engine, rather than an aftermarket item that is purchased to boost performance. That being said, the Ultrathrust, (if that is the right name) muffler has been allowed since it's still a muffler even though it is technically an aftermarket muffler. It's a grey area.

I think the main thing is that a long tuned pipe is obviously an aftermarket item.

I'll ask a couple of the SPA Board members to verify what I'm saying.

Duane

I have never competed in pattern,but in the early 70's I was going to be a pattern flyer. At that time I had 2 super Kaos's and one Pantera. I then got interested in pylon racing and competed in pylon instead of pattern. I recently got interested in the old pattern planes. I built a Dirty Birdy from plans. I installed retracts and an OS 55AX. I think the retracts are very cool! The plane looks great with the wheels up. I don’t know if aerodynamically retracts are any better. There is a small weight penalty and it does dirty up the bottom of the wing. I would vote to allow retracts. I used Spring Air retracts, and they were pretty easy to install. The cost is not bad either. The cost is about the difference in cost between a 2 stroke and 4 stroke engine. I think the early 70's airplanes are way cooler with the wheels up.

Jim

Duane:

I sure do wish that I could make it to Asheville. I'm sure that it would be worth the trip. I just can't swing the time and 1600 miles due to personal schedules (read downsizing) at work. Three people can do the work of seven if they want to keep working. Oh well this is America, but on with airplane business.

I believe that the large turnouts in novice say that the SPA format has a bright future. The novices will eventually progress to sportsman and then on to expert ranking. The problem with the current F3A is getting anyone to start and then go past novice requires a substantial cash outlay. In SPA an ARF or ARC with engine can be had for a reasonable amount and take a pilot all the way to expert. You should continue the contest if at all posible as people will eventually move up and more people will attend.

Pattern was alway a fairly expensive portion of our sport even in the "Classic" days. Just look at the old adds for $500.00 Pro-Lines or Kraft C series and even EK Super Pro and add in an engine and retracts and the cost of the airframe and you still had almost $1000.00 1970 dollars. That would be almost equal to a tilted out 40%er today.

The SPA format is very inexpensive fun and I think that is one of the reasons for the high novice turnouts. All a person really needs is a Kaos 40 or equivalent and simple 4 or 6channel radio, 46-55 size engine and you are rockin. I would think that the current SPA format is going in the correct direction. More members are joining all the time and lots of novices at contests, sounds right to me.

Peace

Mark O

Interesting idea! Retracts allowed but then it is mandatory to use a two stroke with a pipe. If you run a four stroke no retracts are allowed because they would have spent the retract and pipe budget on the four stroke. Sounds fair to me and everyone is happy.

The one point no one seems to realize is that no one is going to change the SPA from the outside. If you are not a member of the SPA then your opinion counts for absolutely nothing. You can stand back and complain all you want but the SPA is not going to change. Look at the growth the SPA is going through. If the format wasn't working then maybe they would think about making some changes, but it is working and hundreds of members are enjoying contests based on classic pattern airplanes.

If you want to fly ballistic, then quite sitting in front of your computer, typing posts complaining about the SPA. Start doing some organizing and start your own SIG (special interest group) and hold your own contests.

And before any of you start flaming here, I'm currently flying a Curare with retracts. I like the ballistic planes just as much as the next guy. I'm just tired of hearing you guys complain about something you have just as much right to enjoy as the next guy, but would rather bch about than join in the fun.

Enough said.

Bob Cox

I didn't realize we were complaining. The original question just asked "what should CLASSIC PATTERN be?" It's a very pie in the sky sort of question, so I thought we were free to shoot the moon for our desires and let people know what we like.

I don't think the original poster intended us to list "gripes" against the SPA, but I think some have come out as points for discussion to air out the opinions and perhaps understand the reasons behind why things are the way they are.

I don't know about you, but I'm the sort of person who doesn't like rules unless I understand the wisdom behind them. To your point, yes, I have taken my toys and gone elsewhere (far far away from the SPA) so I'm gonna do my own thing anyway. But I think we all realize there is a lot of common ground to be had.

another option would be to not read this conversation if it bothers one so much.

david

Look at the question that's been underlined. It has only one meaning and in my mind was put there because the person asking the question wants to fly his ballistic plane in SPA. Why! Because there is nothing out there for Ballistic Pattern. YET!

I'm sorry if my last post seems brash, but my intention is to get the ballistic types thinking of why they are trying to change an established organization rather than setting up their own. Ballistic pattern has a start, what it needs now is for someone to take control and get it organized.

Once you have it up and running and have established your rules, someone is going to be upset because you didn't include them. What do you do then. Change your rules? No, you will tell him to comform to your rules or go start his own organization. In the end there will always be someone unhappy because they feel left out. Some where along the way you have to stop feeling like the victim and take control of those things in life you have an influence on.

Bob Cox

In general, the rules evolve because the interest evolves. Look at pylon: It started with FAI, then Sport, then Q500, then 1/2A, etc etc.

SPA has chosen to fomat itself without two accessories that some found bothersome, pipe & retracts. Simple enough. Me, I always hated a pipe, found it very fussy to deal with. I like retracts, but will concede to keep 'em down for SPA events.

When I build my PP this winter, it will have Spring Aires, and a Jett muffler. It will be legal for both SPA and BPA.

Bob,

I don't know RCDENT personally, so I can't say for sure what his motives are. I was hoping for a more high minded motivation in which we could understand exactly what rules are meant to protect and encourage which aspects of the activity we (are trying) to enjoy.

Please look at it this way: From what I've read, the SPA seems to be enjoying a good measure of success. Therefore, I must assume it has a winning formula which encourages newcomers and experienced pattern flyers to get out and participate. My greatest desire for all SPA members reading this post is to not take this the wrong way. Nobody likes to be attacked. I think Duane is trying to help a lot in showing us what SPA has achieved, but I don't think he alone knows the history or thought processes that went into creating the current set of SPA rules so he can't (alone) provide the wisdom we are looking for here. This is evidenced by his response to my question regarding tuned exaust setups.

I have been looking around ever since Duane's first article in MA for just such a document or forum which clearly outlines the thought behind the current SPA rules beyond the obvious oversimplification of "keep it simple, they will come" dogma. Yes, people have been excluced and they are dismayed. I can't find this wisdom on the SPA site, or the BPA site, RCU or anywhere else. As of yet I don't travel to pattern events and my summer schedule is filling up fast. I had hoped to meet some guys on the east coast at this year's WRAM show and maybe try to get some insight face to face, but alas that meeting time was changed at the last minute (I believe due to weather) and I wasn't able to see the new meeting place due to the fact that I was already in town couldn't get to my computer to read the new time and date. That's my personal dilimma I know, but still, I don't know if these guys would have any more insight into the current SPA ruleset than I do. Anyway, my quest continues. I'm glad to see others share the same desire and I'm hoping a nationally viewed forum will be a good place to explain and understand the current wisdom. This remains my hope anyway.

I realize it is very difficult for a member of a current group to come in here and NOT feel attacked when we start putting things under the microscope. I truly wish someone in the SPA who was in the rule making process would feel encouraged to try to explain (if not defend) the current SPA rules. I don't want to take my toys and play elsewhere. I would like to join the fray, if not immediately, then in the future. I don't have an axe to grind, and I wish to praise the experienced SPA members who came up with the current ruleset. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit in that they actually don't know why the rules were created as they are. Somehow I doubt that. "I don't know" is a perfectly accepaible response especially, if followed by "but I'll find out" as Duane has offered in his post to me.

If the BPA style and SPA style planes really are that different and cannot fairly be mixed in a contest, then that's ok if it has to be that way. But understanding the reasons why is paramount and central to the discussion here. I really wish we could air this out without anyone getting mad and stomping away.

Joe Chovan

Joe,

Well said.

Joe,

Well said.

What is lost to me in most treads like this is pattern flying. IE loops, roles, straight lines, up and down lines, the essence of what is pattern. Equipment is not relavent so to speak neither are planes(most are of personnel choice) At the BPA contest in HSV. last year there were a mix of "SPA" and "BPA" planes and equipment. In my opinion all were on equel footing. O.S. 91 12x12 prop can turn 9k plus O.S. Hanno .61 12x12 prop 9kplus.(Same power) different dilevery! It really is about personnel choice thats all. In front of a set of judges its all about radiuses and lines and centering. The SPA is solid on there rules for the time being and I see no need for them to change(IT WORKS AS IS). If you want the pipe and retracts, BPA will grow give it time.


Duane coming back to HSV in AUG. if so bring the KING!!!! and a few more SPA guys everybody loves a big gathering.



gary