Duane and David, You did not clear understand my question.

I am convinced that the fuselage of auction 2 is the same as the fuselage on the right side in the crate, but want to prove that for you all!
When you say you are also convinced, than we do not have any discussion.
But….
When you are not convinced, than I say. “Look at the pictures of auction 2 and the crate!”

And this is what I did ask: in Post 335

“And then, when you look to the characters, what do you see? Especially the first "vet" character of the phone number but also the others, what do you see?
It is the same piece of paper, the same registration sticker (in the crate) as the sticker in the fuselage of auction 2. (Picture 6) ”


So if you are convinced it is the same piece of paper we looking at, than it is also the same fuselage.
What do you think? Is it the same piece of paper?

BTW
I did mark the matching details of the characters with blue and yellow lines to show you! Maybe that declares my question.



Cees

History Hospital History Hospital History Hospital History Hospital History HospitalHistory Hospital History Hospital


Gentlemen,,



My pictures of the label/paper wasn't a great succes.
Zero point zero result. Niènte, noppes So!

We try the next, but also last method to prove the fuselage of auction once was in the crate in Africa!

What we know is, that the motormount of the fuselage of auction 2 was much lower than the motor mount of the MAN Magazine/ Top Flite Taurus.
Changing the mounmounting (wood) is also very difficult.
So it is plausible that the motor mounting is orginal.

To prove the fuselage in the crate, on the right side is the fuselage of auction 2 , we also can prove by demonstrate that the motormount is much lower than the MAN Magazine/ Top Flite Taurus on the left side.
I did make one composition picture of the two fuselages, so you can see the details near each other in one picture..

Left side is the MAN Magazine/ Top Flite Taurus with white lines accentuating the motor position.
The blue centreline accentuates the top of the fuselage, through the centre of the canopy mounting surface.
The red vertical line indicates the distance of the cilinderhead and glowplug above the centreline of the fuselage.
We see that nearly 40 % of the motor dimension centreline crankcase/ glowplugconnection is above the top of the fuselage, so MAN Magazien Taurus/Top Flite.


On the right side is the fuselage to prove its the fuselage of auction 2.
In Post 270 I already wrote: Cees
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>
On the right side I do see a fuselage different form the AMA Magazine
Taurus, so also different from all the Taurusses used in Belgium.
Why?
The head of the engine is nearly as high as the nose sheeting of the
plane, so I think it is the fuse of the second auction of e-Bay, with
his lower engine mounting and still with silk covered tailplane,
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>
Also here the blue centreline over the top of the fuselage and through the mounting surface of the cockpit.
We see that the blue line goes through the electrical connection of the glowplug, so the top of the cilinder is below the top of the fuselage.


CONCLUSION

So the fuselage on the right for shure has not the de dimensions of a MAN Magazinen/ Top Flite Taurus, And when we look at the dimensions of the motormounting it seems to be the fuselage of the auction 2

You can say the motormount of the fuselage on the right side is as the mounting of auction 2 but, and it can be an other fuselage, later built!

BUT
Then we had not seen the repaint underline of the dark painting of the fuselage beneith the horisontale stab, (see the second picture with the red line.)
Also the painting scheme of the sheetede tailplane is old and probably a copy of the silk covered tailplane for use with old wings.
This is the indication the orginal stab is removed and the sheeted tailplane mounted, after that Ed did replace the "B" FAI sticker for contest flying the NAT's after 1963
Also we would not have found 4 holes in the fuselage from wich probably 2 of the old reed radio, All details that Ed did use the orginal fuse the test his idea's
Last argument is the inside of the fuse, scratch built before a machined topsheet for the fuse were there, also with old model bulkheads,


So, this is my last explanation about the fuselage of auction 2
For me it is cinvincing that the fuselage of auction two is "As old as the way to Rome?",

and probably of

the Oldest Taurus on Earth!

Once used with the wings of auction1, and later with the proportional radio as the "B" "model" with unknown wings in 1963 in Belgium.

This is the last fact that I did wanted to show you!

May I have your votes please, before I close History Hospital

Cees

Cees,
I found this pictures today among some of Ed's personal photographs. Some were taken aboard what appears to be an aircraft carrier, dated in August of 1963.
Chuck

Hello Chuck,

Midnight 2:00 hour.

First picture is the Taurus with the fuselage of auction 2, see below.

Look at the red lines, low motor mount, red line, dark paint beneith horizontal tailplane, red line.

Thanks Chuck, this is august 63, same time as Belgium and after sheeted tailplanes were mount after the Africa Tour, if I am right.

Looks the same like the Taurus on your picture 2 on the carriër, both with straight TE of the wings ( wings not seen before?), and characteristic dark paint under the horizontal tailplane.

This are probably the wings with the old paint scheme, that scheme of the horizontal sheeted tailplane I did talked about a lot!!!!!

Reed radio inside I think when we see the antenna feed through near the cockpit also no flags or so what on the fuse.

Who reconizes the transmitter near the Taurus, we see the backside of?

Interesting picture to study, in releationship with Belgium.

Maybe this is later the proportinal "B" plane during the internationals in Belgium, with war paintings and stickers.

Ed did had a buzy time in august63 !!!!! What I did said.



Cees

I wonder which carrier he was aboard? It would be interesting to know.

FB

Regarding Post #352, I just noticed.........

The Horizontal stab is AIRFOILED, not diamond, as the origional Taurus was. More experimentation? And, it's FAT.

Hello WEDJ

When I say sheeted, I always mean balsa sheeted.

Diamond as you say, I call them silk covered, like the original we all know.

Cees

Quote from Cees "Who reconizes the transmitter near the Taurus, we see the backside of?"

Both transmitters in the picture look the same. Same size, dark color (black?) and both with center loaded antennas. I'm betting they are both Orbit proportionals. Thats Bob Dunham talking with the Seaman.

BTW The side view of the Tarus appears to have been taken at Kick-a-Poo woods RC field on the south side of Chicago. That was Ed's home field.
Why did Ed take a side view picture like that? Was it a new model that he wanted to document?
John W.

John. W.

Our thread is not to bet, so my more detailed question is!

I want know, can that be Orbit reed transmitters, on the flight deck of the carrier, to confirm the reed system is built in the Taurus?

The (Orbit) reed radio system Ed did use before the proportionals?

Even when Orbit did use the case of his old reed transmitters later to built in there first proportionals, than I can say these are probably reed systems
Extra reason, Ed would take a too great risk, flying with his new proportional on a carrier.
(No, not for the aircraft carrier of course st...!!!)


And John, why?
Why do you think with every new picture you see, you see a new model?
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>
Why did Ed take a side view picture like that? Was it a new model that he wanted to document?
John W.
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>

Read my story, I think this is the fuselage of Africa, after Ed did change the horizontal stab.
BTW, with these wings, we did not have seen before, Ed could not use the old wings (auction 1) on this fuse anymore, so they were spare now.

That was the possibility for Ed he could use the old wings of this fuse on the Man Taurus / Top Flite Taurus. for some reasons during the Internationals in 1963.
Maybe the MAN Magazine/Top Flite wings were not usable anymore on that moment, so Ed hád to mix up his "A" Taurus.
Story Complete??

When this Taurus was complete during the Internationals, then this was probably the the "B" verion ( proof is the "B"sticker on the balsa sheeted tail plane we see in auction 2) and Ed did not use the wings of the MAN Magazine/TopFlite at all in Belgium, had them not with him.
In Belgium this Taurus had the proportionals in his fuse.

Cees

Cees,
I am confused...So far as I can tell there was no Top Flite Taurus kit before 1963, yet Ed had both models throughout 1962. Neither can be a kit. The MAN article intro, Jan 1963 (which must have been prepared around October 1962) states that 'the man in the street is doing the winning' so there must have already been a number of Taurus flying and winning local contests. This would imply that there were already plans circulating (as seen by the October 1962 RCM&E plan seen here) much earlier than the MAN ones. It is obvious that the MAN plans are simply the kit plans with added sections for the ribs and formers, the engineering of the kit was completed before the plans were published, so Sid Axelrod must have had access to these earlier plans as well as Ed's models. If this is so then it would be hard to tell which fuselage is the oldest, but one of them was modified for the model seen on the auction and the A/C carrier. It is possible that one of them is older than the other, but the difference will be weeks, not months or years. This is only a guess, but at that time it was common to build two models at a time, rather than one, as things were not quite as reliable as they are now, and it made sense, especially if you were practising for the Nationals, as Ed was when the models were built.
Evan.

A few more shots to add to the mix. Last one taken at the 1964 Nats. I'll leave the analysis to Cess.

Ray

Ray,


First picture: Fuselage is the MAN Magazine / Top flite / circulatng drawings model. The kit of the Taurus was already used in Belgium during the Internationals we can read in the memberslist. Not clear is the wingset, the curved line of the dark painting of the wing near the fuse can give us the solution of this, I will look in the future. Probably the old wingset.
Also clothing looks like Belgium, so practicing of the teams. And sleeping PRESS.

Picture 2/3, This is the explanation Ed did already use his proportionals on the aircraft carrier. The Hero!
The plane is the plane we have seen, so.
No fuselage as like the MAN Magazien / Top Flite / Circulating drawings but from auction 2 scratch built with lower thrustline split bottom line.
Painting of the wingset and stab is "old" scheme.
In the past this fuselage probably flying with the wings of auction 1, but not yet picture of.

Last picture
Exact the plane of auction 2 modern painting scheme of the wings, swept back. Low line of dark painting of the fuse beneath the horizontal tailplane.
1964 correct last version of this Taurus (but also the fuselage of the carrier Taurus!)

I also prepare a reaction for Evsn, but that takes some time!

Cees

Evan,


Never be confused of history, there is only one!.

And you also do not have to guess as well, or to bet as John W. did..

I did not was in the States in 1960 /1965 so I look to this story of your Ed from a different corner and a great distance and I tell you this:

I only talk about two Taurussen one of the auction 1 and one of auction 2 on e-Bay.

All the Taurussen (see auction1) were the same during the Internationals in Belgium.
It does not matter to me if these were build from a kit (As you can see in the list of the members in Belgium there were kits) or from a drawings already circulating over the world.

That was the reason I did say in the past Ed could have a preproduction kit of Top Flite we see this Taurus on the most Promotion pictures.

All these Taurussen have the same fuselage, thrust line of motor, bottom line of the fuselage etc.
(And because I tell you this from the period of the Internationals 1963 , there was on that moment also NOT a Taurus 2, with shorter fuse for proportionals)

So that was part one.

And now part two.


And then you have that “One and only” different and remarkable other fuselage of auction 2,
With the splitted bottomline, low thrustline of the motor, remarkable dark painting beneath the horizontal tailplane, and different inside with handcurved topsheeting..
That one and only fuselage we saw in the crate in Africa, we see on the carrier, we see later in 1964 /1964 from AVL Wilsons picture and we see back in the auction 2 on e-bay..

This one fuselage we see back all the time is from the One and only oldest Taurus on Earth
Flew in the past probably with the wings of the auction 1 (but we do not have pictures of that yet, please) The oldest wings on Earth with the 3 sewings each aileron and later 5.

And that remarkable fuse also was part of the proportional model that had Ed with him in Belgium as the spare, and as we see in the carrier deck.
And that remarkable fuselage Ed later did use also with the swept back wings of auction 2.


If I count I see only:




(A) 1 old fuselage with (diamond) silk covered tailplane(waiting for a picture, because the crate picture is the only one), later with sheeted tailplanes (auction2)(first reed, later proportional)

(B) 1 old pair of wings, together with the fuse the oldest Taurus on Earth with in the past 3 sewings each aileron later 5.(reed)

(C) 1 fuselage 'MAN Magazine/Top Flite/circulating plans' Ed did use in the Internats in Belgium together with the old pair of wings already mentioned and reed radio.(reed)

(D) 1 pair of 'MAN Magazine/Top Flite/circulating' plans wings, for the promotion pictures of the MAN Magazine Taurus.after that see no more (reed)

(E) 1 pair of wings of the aircraft carrier deck with old schema of painting and straight TE (proportional ? (Hero!))

(F) 1 pair of wings swept back with modern painting of auction 2 (proportional)


Every picture and every moment I can explain with these parts, and no more.

HistorY :=========Oldest Taurus on Earth: A + B

Nats 61==========A + B?
Nats 62==========C + D or A + B?
Africa:==========C + D and A + B
Promotie tour:=====C + D
Carrier :=========A + E
Belgium 1963:===== B + C was the A Taurus and A + E was the B Taurus
Nats 63:========== A + F
AVL Wilson picture 64= A + F


Cees

If only that were true - depends who writes it. As that great philosopher Homer once said " you can prove anything with facts" That's Homer Simpson of course.

Ray

I have not had time to study all the posts from yesterday, and maybe this has ben mentioned before, but if you look at the PILOT of the right side Taurus in the crate, and the PILOT of the second Taurus auction, I see similarities in the helmets...the red markings look similar. Is this proof.....probably not, but I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

Yes Duane,

This is positive to write, although we already have seen talked about the brave pilot on the pictures but a long time ago
With this observation we can not prove the fuse on the right side is the fuse of the auction 2 but a remarkable conformity, why?.

There could be two pilots, and that’s also the reason we cannot use the Top Flite Pilots to prove anything. But mention conformities can give your mind the right direction before you prove!.
( And how did I say that?)

Cees

The winners of the Navy hosted Nationals (C/L, F/F, R/C) were treated to a cruise aboard the USS Lexington. They flew demonstration flights aboard the carrier while Ed, Doc Brooke and others flew RC demonstrations. They then put to sea to observe first hand, Navy carrier qualifying trials using the NA T-28. This practice was done (I think) up to about 1966 - 1968 as the Navy was winding down sponsorship of the Nats. The posted photos were taken after the 1963 California Nats. The nationals were rotated around the country in a four year cycle between Philadelphia (NAS Willow Grove), Chicago (NAS Glenview), Los Angeles (NAS Los Alamitos), and Dallas (NAS Dallas). Navy sponsorship ended around 1971 or 1972.

One of the competition categories created as a result of Navy sponsorship, C/L Navy Carrier, is still flown to this day.

This is where I'm provoked to nitpick. Please don't confuse the Past (verleden) with History (geschiedenis).

The Past is everything that has transpired, the factual events that actually happened.

History is what people write about the Past. It's the present day description, interpretation and explanation of the factual events that actually happened.

That's why History can sometimes be so contentious and political.

David

rainedave, thank you for this (and the former) excellent explanation of history. Interestingly, it's quite significant for this thread. What really contributed was always facts, often provoked by having second thoughts on interpretations.

Cees, why don't you listen to Duane? You keep disregarding the pilot in the model and instead being fixated on the labels, which are far weaker indications of what you want to prove. Still I don't realize what you actually want to prove. I think nobody here doubts that the fuselage with the jet pilot is the same on all the pictures shown here.

You have a high-resoluition picture of the crate but you've shown only certain details, keeping the whole picture back from us. So you proved the fuselage was in the crate as early as 1962, but you ignored that the fuselage front section already looks the same as on the later pictures. That could mean that this fuse was modified already 1962 or that it was built this way in the first place. We don't know, even if I would think it was modified because that would explain why it looks coarse inside (as I wrote before). That has nothing to do with a pre-production kit, and I think Ed hadn't one and simply another, nicer wing was used to shoot the MAN photos. On the other hand, I think the second fuse could have been equipped with proportional from the beginning. The ad page with the Simla says Ed had one of the first Quadruple Proportionals shipped by Orbit.

These are just my interpretations, proven by facts (hi Ray!), and just as useless as your different interpretations. We all might assume that Ed had no real duplicates but different stages of development. Maybe he had the "Simla prototype" already 1962 in his crate, maybe just a slightly different (moment arms, thrust line) "standard" Taurus. But it seems to be sure that he had this model in Genk, after all a model with proportional was mentioned. I have no doubt that it already was the model we all know: lower thrust line, shorter nose, because the swept wing had to be more forward, thicker wing and located more as mid-wing, hence the bashed innards of the fuselage, thickened and sheeted horizontal stab to match the thicker wing (that's my explanation, especially if the thicker airfoil was still semi-symmetrical). And I can't help thinking Ed used the older Taurus in Genk because it had a thinner wing.

Now you may throw the stones. (Yes, I enjoy being negative. )

I know what you mean, (hence the term "re-writing history" that we see now in our politics. That being said, unless we were eye witnesses of the events, we have to rely on "History" to relate "the past". That's why it is important to CONSIDER THE SOURCE(S), or the authors, to get the most unbiased accounts, and we need to COMPARE the different histories...where they tend to agree the most is probably where the "truth" may be found.

Now let's discuss "What is Truth"??

Duane

" When truth is discovered by someone else, it loses something of its attractiveness" - Alexander Solzhenitsyn.

" You can only find truth with logic if you have already found truth without it" - G K Chesterton

" Jazz? It's rubbish. They just make it up as they go along" - Homer J Simpson

Ray

How, pray tell, did the subject in post #1 ____ which had the correct spelling of Ed's sur-name____ morph to Kazmirski with a 'u' in the second post?

Phonetically yes. But in fact NO.

Seems the discussion of all the finer points ignored one of the basics.

We should at least honor the designer of RC aerobatic's "DC-3" with the correct spelling.

Cees,
You asked...

"I want know, can that be Orbit reed transmitters, on the flight deck of the carrier, to confirm the reed system is built in the Taurus? "

Below you'll see present day picture of the Orbit from the estate of Ed Kazmirski

Chuck

Gentlemen,
I am not here for my expertise, I am here to provide what information I can. Below are some pictures I had forgotten I had taken. Perhaps they would be of some interest? They are of Taurus 1 and Taurus 2.
Chuck

Gentlemen,
One last group of pictures for the day. I believe these are the wings of the Taurus that was flown from the carrier in the Aug 1963 pics.
Chuck