Right now we have Novice,sportsman and expert, then senior expert. it seems that since your allowed to fly anything in Novice that even the older members who was out of the hobby then back at it are getting beat by guys who is new to SPA but not new to flying in contests.

what if we had a basic novice class that you can fly any airplane in one time and once you fly the one time to try it to see if you like it you must move to Novice, and in Novice you must fly a SPA legal airplane.

I am not sure how the SPA or members feel but I really think it would help the Novice folks not get kicked so hard at thier own game.

I mean come on SPA is supposed to be SPA legal planes, I flew a non SPA plane in novice this year, and I myself don't like big planes, most likley I will be flying a 40 size Big stick in novice next year, why, well it can be done I know a old member of SPA who cleaned up flying a big stick, and again I don't care for 60 size planes. the Kaos flys nice but its just so darn big.

Also who feels that just because a guy can fly the heck out of some IMAC type or 3D flying that they also would be best at SPA flying, I am one of about 3 really good 3D pilots at my club and SPA was totally driffrent type of flying to me. it does take pratice no matter how good you can fly for fun.

Your idea was in common practice during the early eighties in AMA pattern. I don't think that we have enough people flying SPA contests to further divide up the attendees that do fly. There is nothing wrong with being beaten by a better pilot. Better pilots move up eventually and you, now with more experience under your belt, will be the better pilot in the class. Before you know it, you'll be forced to move up too.

Take advantage of the early contests (for you) to not focus on winning, but in picking up pointers from the better pilots and losing contest nerves. But most of all, enjoy the camaraderie that other pilots will display. Enjoy yourself and have a great time.

Ed Cregger

I am not talking about myself, I am talking about people who are at least in there 60's whos been flying in SPA for years whos winning cause hes getting beat by a FIA pilot. or a 3D flyer.

Seems to me this was discussed recently on the SPA email list. I think one member suggested that your points should only count if you are flying an SPA plane. That way, any newcomer could try out Novice with any type of plane, but it wouldn't effect the yearly standings for those who compete at multiple contests using SPA planes (the dedicated competitors). I have read that the SPA's Novice class has been growing quite a bit this year. I would guess that if enough members cause a big enough stir, they will look for a solution.

Like Ed was saying, practice (something that I don't do, so I'm one to talk). The best solution is to work your own way up to Sportsman.

David

An FAI pilot might give me a problem, but not a 3D flyer unless he has pattern experience. 3D pilots are used to flying ultra light, way overpowered models. As a consequence, they would snaproll and crash a classic pattern model in a hurry. They are not superior pilots. They are different kinds of pilots. As you have noted before (I think it was you), classic pattern looks really simple until you try to string it all together using minimum wing area and minimum thrust. Then it becomes a matter of true skill.

I'm not knocking 3D pilots at all, but it would be like expecting a motorcross driver to suddenly compete in a Gran Prix bus racing event. The skills simply wouldn't translate.


Ed Cregger

Oh yeah, well I have not joined the list guess I need to, I just have seen and heard things going on with the guys at my club and well I thought maybe this could be a way to fix it. Not many SPA guys on here but a few.

I see your point and his as in for everyone just to get good and move to the next level then you will not be competting agaist novice folks BUT, why move up if your not good enough to take top 5 anyways in novie? is the guys in sportmans not that good either?

Not knocking anyone but just trying to put out what could happen. No matter what class your in someone is always going to be better then you ( not you but you know ones flying) or doing whatever your doing.

well I always just sport flew then after being out of flying seen the 3d and electric and just had to learn so I did then i seen a guy flying IMAC I thought it looked cool and I flew it a while now SPA, I will never go to more then 3 events all yr cause of money issues but its fun. but I will never be a top compeditor at it.

I love to fly for fun, same patterns every flight really bore me, but it is HARD to do over and over just perfect.

I know a fellow that tried the bottom two pattern classes some time ago and could never finish anywhere except dead last. So, he promoted himself to Masters class. He still didn't win anything, but you should have seen him swagger. He even fooled a lot of the guys in the club into thinking he was truly a Masters class worthy pilot. I used to stand back and smile, not saying a thing. I figured his ego needed the boost.

I'd like to see it set up where you couldn't self promote yourself to a higher class. You would have to work your way up through the ranks, points and placement wise. But, it's just a hobby...

Ed Cregger

I think the system is set up for those who are serious about competition and work hard to win on a consistent basis by going to as many contests as they can. They get moved up automatically by mastering their current class (winning three contests, for example). In theory, this is the way it should work.

But, I'm interested in hearing more about the problem you've raised, Night_prowler26. It's possible that an SPA member could go to every contest in a given season and get beat every time by a different local pilot who only enters that one contest. How do you work around that? Maybe it's just something that is inherent to Novice, and goes away in the higher classes.

Any other thoughts?

David

One explanation of the problem, and one that hints at its solution, is that the Novice class is actually serving two unrelated functions. One is to serve as a means of introducing pilots to SPA pattern competition. Hence the ruling that one need not use an SPA legal aircraft. This is an excellent recruiting tool, but it does pit non-SPA planes against vintage designs. The second purpose is to act as the first level of pattern competition in the series of classes. Thus, there is a significant number of SPA pilots who fly in the Novice class and compete for the annual championship. Trying to have the Novice class serve dual functions - a recruiting tool and a serious SPA competition class - is the root of the problem.

So, why is it this way? I am relatively new to SPA competition, as this is my first year actively competing in SPA, although I've been a member since 2004. I am flying Sportsman this year, but will advance to Expert next year. As near as I can tell, one reason for the current structure is to keep the number of different classes small so as to reduce the cost for the sponsoring club and also to insure that each class has at least some contestants. As it is, the upper classes are underpopulated in some contests. But, SPA popularity is growing. Perhaps the Novice recruiting function is working.

What are possible solutions? The AMA had a solution back in the 80's - Novice was the intro class. Place 1st, 2nd, or 3rd beating at least 3 contestants and you moved up to Sportsman at the end of the year. After that, advancement was based on a point system determined by how many contestants you beat. If we had that system then many of our Novices would be flying in Sportsman already and the problem would largely go away.

However, it has been said by some that they aren't ready to fly in Sportsman since one has to learn both the slow roll and the 4-point roll as the pattern is currently set up. Indeed, some might stay away if forced to advance too rapidly. So, another piece of the solution could be to make the Novice/Sportsman transition less difficult and then increase the difficulty of the Sportsman/Expert transition. As it is, some think that that transition is currently too easy.

Faster advancement would help fill the upper classes and wold ease the log jam in Novice. Some have even advocated the addition of a Masters class so that the difficulty of the upper level class could be retained while lessening the difficulty of the steps between classes. As the number of contestants grows steps such as these become possible.

Jeff

Here join the fun.. That way you can see what is really goiing on.. http://www.seniorpattern.com/mail.asp just follow the instructions...


scott anderson
spa 239
www.rcfoamy.com
Yes we have SPA planes !

I agree with all that you said you said.

The copied sentences from your post illustrate what I perceive as a problem. The jump to Sportsman including the slow roll (very, very difficult) and the four point roll (somewhat difficult) are problematic. Not only do these maneuvers' emphasis on knife-edge ability with special emphasis on building and trimming skills represent a large leap in flying skill, but also demand a huge leap in set up and building skills.

Frankly, these skills are where I fell short and are why I didn't progress much further than I did (but I had help and an extremely hard head). I could fly the maneuvers (thumbs), but I wasn't able to pull off building a model that could satisfactorily perform them.

I have a much better idea of what I was doing wrong now, but for someone just entering classic pattern as their first pattern experience, it might turn out to be really difficult for them, especially if no one in their club or surroundings knows the "secrets" to performing such a build/setup. Of course, tips can be gained on the internet today that were not available when I was trying to fly pattern in the late Seventies and early Eighties.


Ed Cregger

Again, I do not have a issue with it, its others around me, as said I will never be serious serious about the SPA, I will fly in local events but I do not have the means to travel to all the events and even if i did i wouldn't. I enjoy flying more then 4 times in a day at the Field lol.

but as some see it they are getting beat by guys flying non Patterns planes in novice, these guys are not good enough to move up in class but they complain about getting beat by a novice just because hes novice never flew in SPA but has flown in FAI or IMAC or whatever.

I agree with ED I think said it, a 3D guy wouldn't be very good at SPA but a IMAC guy could be. i will admit if I had not flown some IMAC i had not been as good as I was at the SPA. I think its good to have a class that allows other planes then SPA planes. I know they have limited in size what you can fly cause last year from what I hear they were getting beat by huge IMAC type planes.

Me personally I feel now with the new rules no plane over what 72 inches or whatever and with motor size that it does not matter, i think if you get beat by a IMAC guy so what, hes better then you or he got lucky (unless same guy beats you more then one time)
deal with it its competition it is not supposed to be easy. I just wondered how everyone else felt.