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OS 61 V Test Results

Old 06-14-2009, 01:02 AM
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Johnkpap
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Default OS 61 V Test Results



Hi all,

I have completed my Inital test on my 2 OS 61V Engines

I need to decide which of my two engines and carb /Pump setup I am going to use to power the arrow before I start sanding the engine bay.

My main goal is to work out which is going to be the most relable, and I am a curious person :- I like to work things out for my self much better than a blind guess.

This is what I will be testing

OS 61 V Which I am going to call "Engine A " :- Low usage engine came fitted with 7M carb only no pump, bought in box with Manual only damage small scrape on one fin nothing to fuss about.

OS 61 V Which I am going to call "Engine F"(Frankinstien):-It was bought "AS-IS" for its OS pump and 7D carb condition unknown, it has had a hard life crashed at some stage lost a Whole fin on the head and the pipe mount area was welded back onto the casting and machined flat new holes were tapped to take longer Non Metric Bolts. The piston and linner are NONStandard and have had a radical porting job how good a job we will soon see.


Both Engines were run on a Standard fuel of 20% Castor, 5%Nitro Same pipe / same Glow plug same Props Even same prop nut.

RPM by a Hanger 9 Tacho from behind the prop.


Results
______



Engine A Pipe presure only 7M carb

1332 RPM Bolly 11.5 x 7
1050 RPM Graupner 12.5x6

Engine A with OS Pump and 7D

1340 RPM Bolly 11.5 /7
1080 RPM Graupner 12.5 x6


Engine A:-Idle's nice and is happy with the 7M and Pipe Pressure Only, Very good safe choice for the Arrow


Engine F Pipe presure only7M carb

13730RPM Bolly 11.5 x7
11880RPM Graupner 12.5 x 6


This engine is Nutts !!! it sounds like hot Rotory Engine when it Idles !!! who ever ported this one Knew what they were doing !!!

Engine F OS Pump and 7D

14020 RPM Bolly 11.5 x7
12150 RPM Graupner 12.5 x 6

The two Photos are "Frankie" Engine F on test

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Old 06-14-2009, 02:42 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results


Engine A puts out Approx 2.06 HP with the 11.5 x7 Prop

Engine F puts out Approx 2.26 HP with the 11.5 x 7 Prop

The porting on "Franki" was done by a "Expert" to get that much of a power gain and still get a reasonable Idle, any Idea
on who was doing porting work in the 80's on pattern engines ?

Johnkpap
Old 06-14-2009, 04:25 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

Johnkpap,

I do use my engines with fuel pressure regulators near the carburetor and tank for the next reasons:

I want:

Optimum power in any position and any moment.
Optimum constant fuel/air ratio on any power level so less fuel consumption
Fuel/air ratio independent from G-forces during maneuvers.
Idle nose up and nose down
Max power nose up and nose down

But first : Fuel consumption? of these both engines, because what to do when you cannot finish your pattern flight because of a dead stick.
Also less fuel consumption, less changes in CG position.
(Most important cheap-Dutch!)

Cees
Old 06-14-2009, 04:53 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

Johnkpap,

I did not get an response on my post, maybe you didn't read it yet but it is also possible you do not know how to measure the difference in fuel consumption.

I have an idea:

Adjust max power with the fuel level as low as it can be in vertical nose up flight in your Arrow.
Then bring the tank in normal level position, as you show on the bench and shut of the main tank, the fuel will be used from a little second tank,
Measure RPM and time.

Compare these values of both engines.

We all expect the "pumped" engine will do it better but I want to see results before advice.

I normally do not believe these phrases:
The porting on "Franki" was done by a "Expert" to get that much of a power gain and still get a reasonable Idle, any Idea
on who was doing porting work in the 80's on pattern engines ?


Because for example "Franki" can be a power boat engine, or ducted fan!



After the test show us the same with 50 % power or RPM.

After you show us the values we can think with you about the engine to use.

I do these tests with tankpositions far above and below the positions that are normally possible in my plane!
I want for any tank position the same result, full power, 50 % and idle for at least the periods that are possible during flights.
Nose up full power no limitation of time, horizontal either.
For idle and nose up, I have time limit because the tank has to be the pressurebuffer. That is because I do use a check valve between exhaust (pressure controller, when used) and tank, the exhaust pressure is to low.

Cees



Old 06-14-2009, 05:07 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

I have worked out the fuel based on a 61SF powered model I have, the tank in the arrow is about the same, on a normal flight I get 11 mins with this plane, I have calculated that the 61 V standard with 7M carb and pipe presure gives be approx 8-10 mins of flight time.

That is close enough for the first flight.

Once I have proven the plane I normaly just run it to dry and land Dead stick a few times giving me a much better Idea of flight times.

That is all I need to know.

Johnkpap
Old 06-14-2009, 05:15 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

Johnkpap,

Our messages did cross eachother, I try it again,

Isn't it important to know the differences in powerloss beteen nose up, (normally adjusted for fuel air ratio without pump) and level flight?
And if there is no measurable difference the fuel consumption difference?

Cees
Old 06-14-2009, 08:03 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

Hi Johnkpap,
Have you examined the liners/pistons of both engines disassembled? Just curious as to what the porting changes were (photos would be great). I'm guessing there were changes to the exhaust timing and possibly/probably the intake timing. How about the crankshaft - any changes there? If there are changes to the intake ports on the liner were changes made to the engine casting?
Performance Specialties (Dave Shadel) sold replacement piston/sleeve sets for the OS 61VF back in the '80s (they were manufactured by Henry Nelson). The chrome plating and honing process (especially the former) are VERY specialized and only a few people (modelers) world-wide have the technical capability to do it correctly. If you have a Shadel/Nelson piston/liner then you have some top quality replacement parts.
My stock OS 61VF with 7D carb (with insert and no pump) was plenty of power for my Arrow. The pump is unnecessary in the Arrow as the tank has to be located behind the firewall - not much room in the fuselage with the pipe tunnel floor.
Thanks for the information and good luck! I'm looking forward to the flight reports!
-Will B.
Old 06-14-2009, 11:34 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

ORIGINAL: flywilly

Hi Johnkpap,
Have you examined the liners/pistons of both engines disassembled? Just curious as to what the porting changes were (photos would be great). I'm guessing there were changes to the exhaust timing and possibly/probably the intake timing. How about the crankshaft - any changes there? If there are changes to the intake ports on the liner were changes made to the engine casting?
Performance Specialties (Dave Shadel) sold replacement piston/sleeve sets for the OS 61VF back in the '80s (they were manufactured by Henry Nelson). The chrome plating and honing process (especially the former) are VERY specialized and only a few people (modelers) world-wide have the technical capability to do it correctly. If you have a Shadel/Nelson piston/liner then you have some top quality replacement parts.
My stock OS 61VF with 7D carb (with insert and no pump) was plenty of power for my Arrow. The pump is unnecessary in the Arrow as the tank has to be located behind the firewall - not much room in the fuselage with the pipe tunnel floor.
Thanks for the information and good luck! I'm looking forward to the flight reports!
-Will B.

flywiilly,

>>The pump is unnecessary in the Arrow as the tank has to be located behind the firewall>>

This rule of thumb is ONE of my reasons to use controllers for fuel and tank pressure, and in the past a Webra Speed 10 ccm with pump. Show me one airplane with the tank before the firewall, and yes!

The pusher!!

And that was exactly the reason for Ed Kazmirski to use a pressure regulator for his pusher.

In the pusher the mixture can be too lean in horizontal flight when you adjust the right ratio nose up for max power.
Always you have differences in horizontal flight and nose up the same as normal or pusher only in the pusher the "wrong way".

The difference in run time of a "hopper" tank on several levels on your test bench gives you the information in difference in air fuel ratio.

If the difference is too much and you haven't much fuel left after the pattern flight and you have "Plenty of power for an Arrow" you can think about making a restriction in the throat of the carb when un-pumped.
With that restriction is the throat the cartb generate more sucking pressure so fuel level differences (as result of the consumption and flight position) and G-Force influences are less.

Result

In horizontal flight you will have a better mixture and less consumption.

With pressure regulators (or a pump) a carb with bigger throat is possible as I use on my OS Max 61 FX now, a Moki carb with enlarged throat!
Than you will get "plenty of power" from your standard engine!

"Plenty of power for an Arrow" is no measured value.

I do never use engines where "experts" did work on and when I read these questions I have one answer. "Measure all you can and after that use or throw away!"
If you do not want to measure, then mount the engine in the plane and test fly because then the prop can do his real job.

For that I have a data logger ïn my plane so I can measure airspeed, RPM. temperature (and know trottle position) during flight on any moment and plane position I want.
With these measurements I can select (or adjust) the right propeller.

Always first measure the important values of an engine (if possible) before disassemble.
The measured values you need in the future as reference.

BTW I also read:
>not much room in the fuselage with the pipe tunnel floor>

It hasn't to do with tankdimensions?
With a better midrange fuel air ratio and plenty of power you maybe can use a smaller fuel tank en make the pipe tunnel floor on another level? (I do not know the Arrow, so maybe this is nonsense)




Cees



Old 06-15-2009, 04:46 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

Hi Will, thanks for the info on My 61 V, I have never seen a Performance Specialties (Dave Shadel) replacement piston/sleeve set

I will Pull both engines Appart and Photo the Sleeve

Were there any Stamps or ID numbers on them?

Will post Photo's Shortly

Taurus flyer :- Thanks for your info I will take it into consideration once the model is finish and I am able to run the engine in its new home

Johnkpap
Old 06-15-2009, 05:27 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

ORIGINAL: Johnkpap


Taurus flyer :- Thanks for your info I will take it into consideration once the model is finish and I am able to run the engine in its new home

Johnkpap
Johnkpap,

If I did own myself these engines I would not have start this thread.
Simple try both engines in the plane.

I use an OS Max 61 FX and MVVS 10 CCM for my Taurus and I am only interested in what they are doing in the plane.
They both fit in same position just as yours. Change them cost me less then an hour.

If someone would sell you one of these engines and give you the possibility to test them on the bench, I would have start this thread.
Disassemble I would do after testing in the plane and maybe only an engine that disappoints me.
If someone is interested in the internal parts of your engine, then I wonder what you do after buing a new car?

Most interesting for me in this stage is fuel consumption in midrange because it is depending of carb characteristics, and pipe pressure.

RPM's on the bench doesn't tell me much. Normally you adjust the pipe length during flight so it is in resonace on full power (vertical!)
So you prevent the pipe drops out of his resonance curve on the moment you want full power.
The propeller is the power consumer on that moment.
In horizontal flight the pipe will normally be "too long"!
(And on the test bench?)


Because we talk about classic pattern flying most often we use midrange, (Normally, LOL)
When you are interested in max RPM, I can show you other results, see picture, my pumped Webra Speed 10 CCM, with Sonex pipe after a speed attempt + 150 mph..

Success, Cees
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Old 06-15-2009, 07:48 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

So,

And now I did find your other thread about your Arrow.

If I did own myself these engines I would not have start this thread.
Simple try both engines in the plane.




Cees
Old 06-15-2009, 08:04 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

I have pulled down both engines, I needed to install new crank case gaskets on Engine A, before I install it in the arrow.


I have Photo's of both engines and a Spare 61 SF Sleeve

Left :- SF 61 Sleeve

Middle :- Engine A

Right :- Engine F (Franki)

It looks like Engine F is running a Ported SF Sleeve, and is putting out more power than the Standard sleeve on Engine A which looks the most ported.
The pistons both look the same but the liner on engine a is light in weight and is made of alloy.

Usefulinput Please
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Old 06-15-2009, 08:36 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results


ORIGINAL: Johnkpap


Useful input Please
Now you did disassemble the engines we cannot go back.

Let's make a "port timing diagram" and look what our expert Frankie did make of it.

For that we also need the crackshaft of Frankie.

BTW is this the same person as Frank Myers from the Ed Kazmirski's Taurus?

Cees
Old 06-15-2009, 09:37 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

I did not think that an SF sleeve would fit in a V case. besides, the SF is a side port engine.

David
Old 06-15-2009, 01:06 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

John,

The aluminum liner is a Shadel/Nelson liner. The top flange on the SF liner (same as RF just rotated in case) is thicker than either of the others and would impart different compression. The bore of an SF is smaller than a VF too.

Terry in LP
Old 06-15-2009, 04:59 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

The SF liner is From a Ringed Version and it also fits the crank case that must be why it is thicker, and is a "long stroke" engine

So if any one has a Dead 61V it would be possible to use a OS 61 FSR ABC Sleeve and Piston to put it back in to service.

Would it be Possible then to use a piston and sleeve plus ring and head from a 61 FSR of SF Ring engine ?

Has any one tried a Current OS 61 FX piston and sleeve in a FSR , SF or V / VF ?

My other Crazy Idea is to buy a


http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXCG79&P=7


And Make up a Current 61V using a 61FX for parts, This would be a expensive excersise but intresting.

Johnkpap
Old 06-15-2009, 06:04 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

John,

Check out this thread. It might make your head swim. Did mine.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_81...tm.htm#8156324

Terry in LP
Old 06-15-2009, 11:46 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

Thanks for posting that Terry. Iremembered a thread of that nature but I wasn't sure what to look for.

John, that RX crankcase looks sweet! I didn't know OS made a RE Heli engine. I'll have to look up the vintage.

I'm actually wondering how well that crankcase might convert a 61 RF and/or RFHanno... If it worked, it would make a great backup for a Hanno.

What struck me about the liners was the thinner head shim on F. Did Nelson stroke out that VF? If memory serves me, the V series were short stroke engines compared to the FSR/RSR and then the SF/RF series. My 25 VFcertainly is a short stroke but then it is a DFengine (28K rpm anyone... )

David.
Old 06-16-2009, 12:03 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

Gents,

I will read your posts, also did read the other subject in glow engines, but I am modeler, no enginer.

Success Cees
Old 06-16-2009, 08:53 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results


ORIGINAL: doxilia

Thanks for posting that Terry. Iremembered a thread of that nature but I wasn't sure what to look for.

John, that RX crankcase looks sweet! I didn't know OS made a RE Heli engine. I'll have to look up the vintage.

I'm actually wondering how well that crankcase might convert a 61 RF and/or RFHanno... If it worked, it would make a great backup for a Hanno.

What struck me about the liners was the thinner head shim on F. Did Nelson stroke out that VF? If memory serves me, the V series were short stroke engines compared to the FSR/RSR and then the SF/RF series. My 25 VFcertainly is a short stroke but then it is a DFengine (28K rpm anyone... )

David.
David,

OS made both RF (LS) and RF-N (short stroke=VF.61 P/L/crank) heli engines. I have examples of each.



and Johnkpap,

Aside exhaust piston won't work in a rear exhaust case.

Terry in LP

edit to change...rear exhaust 'liner' to case.
Old 06-16-2009, 11:34 AM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results


ORIGINAL: Johnkpap

The SF liner is From a Ringed Version and it also fits the crank case that must be why it is thicker, and is a "long stroke" engine

So if any one has a Dead 61V it would be possible to use a OS 61 FSR ABC Sleeve and Piston to put it back in to service.

Would it be Possible then to use a piston and sleeve plus ring and head from a 61 FSR of SF Ring engine ?

Has any one tried a Current OS 61 FX piston and sleeve in a FSR , SF or V / VF ?

My other Crazy Idea is to buy a


http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXCG79&P=7


And Make up a Current 61V using a 61FX for parts, This would be a expensive excersise but intresting.

Johnkpap

Why go to the trouble and expense when you can buy a Rossi .61 side exhaust AXE for $199.99 with tuned pipe, or the rear exhaust .61 AXE for under $300? My OS .61VF was a nice engine, but it wasn't ever in the Rossi .61 class.


Ed Cregger
Old 06-16-2009, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

How about a brand new ST RE?

http://www.gravesrc.com/SUPER_TIGRE_...up11002931.htm

Only one left!

David
Old 06-16-2009, 01:22 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

Was the 7m carb (replacing the 7d) made for pump use? I ask because of the midrange tuning, and also what were the differences between the 7d and 7dv if anyone might have such tidbits of info, thank you.
Old 06-16-2009, 01:44 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

The 7M came on non-pumped FSR .61's (and probably others, too). The only pumped FSR I know of had the Perry backplate pump and Perry pump carb.

I believe the 7M (first photo) replaced the 7B which came on the earlier FSR .60 (second photo).

David
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:07 PM
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Default RE: OS 61 V Test Results

Thanks for that clarification Terry. But I'm wondering specifically about the V series. Were VF/VR's ever made in long stroke versions? On a separate note, how did those Heli RF & RF-N compare spec wise to the Aero RF's?

Given the alignment pin on most OS liners, I'd imagine that one cannot rotate the liner of an SF 90 degress and insert it into a RE engine either. Of course that would also leave the piston at 90 degrees from it's intended running position in a RE engine (can't get around the position of the piston rod wrt the crankshaft).

David.

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