crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Got some time today, getting thing's done here at the ranch. I am between Dr. app't. again, last time dentist, today, new glasse's. OK. Last picture's, I showed mounting plate for gear's. I went back to Klxmaster's Vertigo build thread, took another look. Scrapped my plan, and cut new plywood. He used lighter wood, I went with 1/4". Sunk the dowel's 6 per side, you can see his set-up, I copied.
Picture's here, show mount's finished, balsa liner, this will all get painted, may put a floor in the wheel well, light balsa. I am going to inset the aileron's on this P-6. I took a look at Klxmaster's Vertigo, looks like he did that. I got the Vertigo plans from a Vertigo II kit here, checked it out, inset. Since aileron's are going to have separate servo's, it's a no brainer, solid wing TE, easly line=up. Other finished P-6 strip's all the way.

I will also copy Klx's servo boxe's. He is running a tunnel dedicated to the servo wire, I will just run the servo wire's thru the retract opening, follow the retract tube's to center of wing. I have a pair of aileron's taken from a wrecked P-6 a couple year's ago, they are glassed, just need fixed up a little. Saves some time, and these are straignt as a board. After this is done, set up wing bolt's, square wing to fuselage, sheet stab, build elevator half's, set stab on, line up stab to wing, all corner's, measure many time's here, secure stab to fuse. Have to decide pushrod or servo's in rear for elevator's. There is some nice build threads other guy's are doing with these old bird's on here now, different methods of glassing, painting and film for all to see. Usually getting the same result's.

Crank

KLXMASTER14

Very nice job there Vince. Makes for a nice clean install.

Are you going to fill any of the opening? Some 1/8" soft sheet sanded flush will help minimize the size of the opening. Not as good as gear doors, but anything that makes the opening smaller is a good thing. Cheap, easy detail.


-Robert

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Hi Robert. I am looking how you did your's. Looks good. I may put a piece in there, cleans it up. More later, just walked in the door, eyes are dialated, new spec's today. Glad I got back in here to finish this bird. Going to get it all to primer asap, the new H-9 P-7 is due the middle of August, get that together. Thinking of using the E-Flite's.

Vince

dhal22

vince, my painted wing (blue angel) weighs in at just over 2 lbs. i suppose contest grade balsa would have lowered the weight a bit. i just mentioned the weight for comparison's sake if you are considering glassing and painting a wing.

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Hey David- Yes, I am going to glass it, 1/2 oz. cloth, finishing resin. I glassed the other P-6, have not weighed it yet. Get 'er done, check it out, before and after. Now that you said that, I am going to weigh the other finished P-6. Is the weight of your wing, complete, gear's, etc. ?

Vince

dhal22

no, just the wing. of course the retracts will add the same weight no matter what covering you use.

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

I have copied Klxmaster's wing servo mounting boxe's, and will post a few picture's of where I am at, there may be someone looking at this, that is not looking at other build thread's. Robert, I gave some thought to these servo boxe's. I said to myself, why not do like the other P-6 wing. Cut in, epoxy the servo rail's fore and aft, drill, mount the servo. Your method will increase the strength of the wing, I would say making it stronger or just as solid if any cut-out wasn't done. Went a little thicker on the box build-up. Any newbie's looking here, you can see I set the servo down into the servo opening. Checking clearance at the bottom, make sure box is tall enough, and another photo, showing where the servo mount's will fit in. This will all get sanded flush after securing, will have the "finished" look after sanding, glass, etc.
This build is going to slow down a bit, maybe, a couple of project's have come up, (honey-do) Anybody go thru that? After these area's both panel's, get aileron's set up. Something else on these recycled aileron's. They are a little thicker at the LE, then the TE of the wing panel. I would say a good 1/32" top and bottom. It will not be noticeable. Reason I mention this, is many years ago, the pattern flyer's talked about this, making the aileron's thicker then the wing TE, as this is going to be. I did not plan this, just going to come out that way. It had something to do with the airflow over the TE and aileron of the wing. If anyone has knowledge of this airflow conditon, would appreciate it.
Klxmaster does have a cleaner install. As said in previous post, the aileron cable will route thru the retract area, to center.

Crank

hook57

My Feedback: (21)

Crank, what I recall about the thicker LE of the aileron and thinner TE on the wing section was the thought that it created a depressedarea of flow (perhaps described differently). Its effect was thought to be a breaking of the boundary layer, whether it followed the wing contour and actually slowed ever so much or not I couldn't say (theoretically it would), and thus not detach. Somewhat akin to stall strips, turbulators, or VGs. In doing so, it was thought that it helped to reduce the risk of flutter and decreased Vmca. At about thatsame timeI recall that is the first I learned of theusefulness of squared (blunt), rounded, and tapered TE's.In addition, the discussion also included the benefit of offset hinge centerline when using same thickness TE/LE to keep the aileron LE inline with the wing TE, so..... as modelers go, go for it; we're all experimenters to some degree! That's what I recall, not sure if it helps.
hook

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Hook - Thanks for the info. The squared off TE of all surface's was alway's in discussion, which is usually normal. What is Laminar Flow ?

Crank

JeffH

My Feedback: (43)

ahhh Kraft wheels are so sexy...

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Kraft's wheel's. Yes, I have paid some good dough for 2.5" and 2.25", smooth contour treaded. Gave some away in the past, now holding on. Just like the Top Flite 11X7.75 Super-M's, PP's, getting rare, and the OS61SF's. I haven't seen any of this stuff on auction site's in a while. From the look's of thing's, there ain't any out there, and guy's are holding on. Thanks for nice comment's about the Kraft's, glad someone else like's these wheel's, even though some folks think they weigh too much. Just toe them in a bit on the main's, help's on hard surface take off's.

Crank

hook57

My Feedback: (21)

Laminar Flow, is rather easy to describe Crank, so.... The theory was developed around symmetricalairfoils. Typically calling for a thin LE which widened in thickness as far aft of the LE as possible. In theory, the undisturbed airflow remained laminar (as inwoodlaminations) and greatly increased the adhesion of the boundary layer versusthe disruption of it on normal airfoils. Once the disruption started it caused turbulent flow and flight characteristics were affected by it.Think of it as a very clean wing that tolerates little disruption at higher airspeeds.
I believe the P-51 was one of the first to employ it but there were issues about the quality of the wing's surface area etc. It's really much moredetailed than that because the flow along any surfaceessentially formsa boundary layer andalso is basically stagnant in terms of velocity right at the surface. Atsome pointfrom the surface it flowswith the same velocity as the local flow. As long as it flowsin parallel layers, with notransfer of energy between thelayers it is said to belaminar, when energy is transferred (disruption) it is turbulent. Again, it's more complex than that, that's itbasically in layman's terms. Hope that helps.
hook (ERAU grad)

dhal22

Vince, you sent me some Kraft wheels. i thought you were done with using them.

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

David - I probably sent you the streamline model's. If I said I was done with them, I could have been in the "AMA Pattern Mood"? When I was building the Focus with the YS engine, it is here. I was ready to get another one, but Central has not delivered on the new YS115S. I am trying to recall, I could have said I was not going to use the streamline's. Too far back, as I have a box full of correct size treaded Kraft's here now.

Thanks for jogging my memory.

Vince

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Hook - Thanks. I read your description 4 time's. I can see what you are describing. Looking at the P-51, exactly as you said it. Norm Page had to be on to this when he designed the Mach I. I had a NIB Mach here, got rid of it, first thing I said when opening the box, "Look at that wing, looks like a knife". Wasn't the F-86 Sabre in the same ballpark ? The VooDoo, many of those post WWII fighter jet's.


Thanks for the explanation.

Vince

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

We are in Monsoon season, lucky for that. When the hurricane's come, we get too much rain, luckily no hurricane's on the horizon at this time, maybe later this year. Not wanting any. I re-conditioned the aileron's that came from a wrecked Phoenix. I am going to inset them, i.e., do like Klxmaster did on his Vertigo II build. The end's were cut off for the center area, I still had to section in some balsa. I will sand these down to wood, re-glass. They have been glassed already, there are area's to apply fillelr to, then finish. My build's are not that pretty, once the paint is on, you will not see all the line's, filler, etc. Finishing resin has been applied to the wheel well's, give it some resilence in this area. Robart or DuBro hinge's will be used, if using DuBro, easy to pin with round toothpick's.
Next up, glass L&R panel's, join with spar's, set in fuselage saddle, set up wing bolt's, pan bulkhead with dowel's, measure, and measure more, make sure wing is squared away. Sheet stab, carve elevator's, glass all, secure, square away with wing bolted on, then measure everytning again, and again, .........etc. Lot of lining up before setting stab, all corner's. I was copying Klxmaster's aileron mounting method. I went back to my old way, nothing wrong with his, it is fine, I am more comfortable here. Just 1/8" hard ply sectioned in, with some meat where servo screws sink in on bottom of ply mount. Everything seen here, is all sanded flush.
Crank

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Thought I would comment here on finishing this P-6. I don't know how much more there is to show, that I did not show on the Phoenix first 6 build thread. It is titled, "Finish the Phoenix Paint". From here on, I am going to glass the wing halve's, join, set up for wing bolt's, join, attach pan, square it away, do the stab, servo rails. apply pneumatic's, misc this and that and paint.

Anyone want's to see anything else, let me know, as there are a lot of builds going on right now, I am getting redundant on a lot of this build now.
Crank

dhal22

please keep posting, as any wing glassing is worth watching.

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

OK. Get to that in a few day's. 1/2 oz. cloth, ZAP Finishing Resin. Have to get the wife in the shop, take some pix, I will of course be working with both hand's. That's going to be fun, she don't like to be told what to do.
Four section's, bottom L&R, then top L&R. I just came in, setting up the section's that will be up against the fuse, where TE will butt up, then out, section the aileron's in. After glass, set hard point's in for wing bolt's, I usually bush these hole's with brass tubing, for wing bolt's, making a no-crush zone. Still have to build the stab. I found a pair of elevator's in stock form, came from a Phoenix kit, unknown source. This fuselage needs a rudder also. Phoenix #1 had the rudder molded to the fuselage. Picture attached, shows the direction we are headed in.
Crank

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

There are many method's to glassing balsa. Most important, preparation, smooth surface. If prep not good, it will all show up when finish applied, (paint). I did the first panel bottom. Short explanation, how I do it, and I am sure there are better method's. After sanding smooth, fill any dent's, etc., lay panel on wax paper. I usually use the rubber mat used in kitchen drawer's, today, none. This is light 1/2 oz. glass cloth. The piece used here, was at the bottom of my glass cloth drawer here in the shop. The picture with all the glassing product's, shows Zap resin, 1/2 oz. cloth from Hanger 9, mixing sticks, #11 blades, and Stonyfiled Low-Fat Yogurt mixing bowl. Low fat bowls will help on the mixing end, no fat contaminate in the mix. Hair spray also included. Cut a piece to cover whole panel. Hit the cloth with hair spray, this will stiffen it a bit, no problem with application. You can use this method with any weight of glass cloth. It just keeps the angel hair down, and easier to handle. Mix the resin and hardener, 50/50. I use a chip brush to apply. I use old credit card's, or access key slider's. Apply mixed resin, total panel, lay cloth, touch up at corner's, edge's, etc. Use a rubber squeege, or this cc method. Lay the cloth into the balsa, lightly. It is going to adhere, and lay smooth. There will be some wrinkle's, just work on it. You can also use your bare finger's, or wear light rubber glove's. At the edge's, pull accordingly, to lay, and squeege down. Some of you southern guy's, if you worked in a textile mill at one time, you know that cloth has a warp and weave. Run up and down, side to side. Glass cloth will pull more on one weave of the cloth, then the other. You can overcome all of this, just smooth it on all center's and corners. There are a couple of picture's here, showing the resin puddled with the card behind it. I applied more resin in some area's, to cover, just showing that the card will smooth this in. Watch the resin, it is going to heat up, and once it starts to cook in the mixing cup, it is finished. Know what to do, to finish. After this cure's, I will do the top. Before laying it on, and it will be a little more time consuming then the bottom, we want the top to look best. Bottom will look fine also, but the plane sit's on it's gear's, top up. The cloth can be trimmed away with a single edge razon, just use your finger's as a guide, straight down the TE and LE, straight cut. The top glass cloth can overlap. By the time more resin is applied and sanded/feathered in, you will never see a seam. After all this, primer, sand, etc., you will fill the cloth as you go, and get ready for final finish. Lot of ground to cover here. This is not necessarily the best method, it works for me.
Crank

KLXMASTER14

Hey Vince,
Want to save a megaton of weight, sanding, and improve the finish? After your last step. unroll paper towels the length of the wing. Lay the towels down onto the wing panel. Use a dry brush, and brush the towel against the wing. This absorbs all of the excess resin (less weight and sanding) making your build up no thicker than the glass cloth. It prevents the glass from floating up in any puddles. This helps prevent sand-throughs on the cloth. It also promotes a much more even "level" surface for follow on finishing operations.

You could also use a dry roller to press down the towel. You will see the towel become wet as it absorbs the excess resin. When you peel it up off of the surface, you will be amazed at the weight of the resin that it absorbs! You will end up with an even, non-shiney surface with no puddles or wet spots. A quick sanding, and it is ready for primer.

The glass cloth is light. Excess resin is just dead weight. And it adds up.

This is known as the "paper towel method". If you use the cheap single ply Scott toilet tissue, it becomes known as the "toilet paper method". Either works well (the TP method is cheaper). Try it on the top side- you will be happy that you did.

Keep up the great work-
Robert

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

Hi Robert. Thanks, and I think you talked about that on your build thread once. I am OK, and realize what you are saying. I just showed some puddle area on the skin, just to let some realize what is going on. By the time I am done with the first lay and resin, it is smooth almost dry, but secured. I know the pictures are showing the shiny finish and puddle's, that is what I wanted, just to show some resin.
I have used your method, but not laying the towe's flat down, but the dabbing method. Your stuff looks good. I have learned another trick from you, and that is the glass cloth you put down over the fillet's, then smooth it all in. I am using finishing resin and micro-baloon's for filler. I will do your method on the top, see how it goes.

Vince

MTK

Vince,

It's probably too late now but you may want to remember this tip for next time.

I recommend that balsa first be sealed with nitrate...two coats thinned 50-50. Dry it for several hours. Adds no practical weight but seals the balsa. Then lay the cloth down with nitrate first. Let that flash for 5 days minimum. Then come back with the epoxy. I use epoxy paint (KlassKote clear with satin catalyst) but regular finishing epoxy works fine...just a little heavier

Toilet paper works great in removing excess as one poster noted

crankpin

My Feedback: (15)

MattK - Thanks, never thought of that. I seal the wood when using MonoKote, makes for better adhesion. I have some sealer here, will give that a try also. I have used this method for many year's, but still learning. I got some idea's from Klxmaster, could have used them year's ago, but we are creature's of habit I guess, if it work's, don't fix it.

Thanks for the tip,

Vince

dhal22

Matt, could you seal the wood with sanding sealer as well? i've done that before i glassed with minwax polycrylic and it worked well.