Perry Pumps and regulators
06-03-2010, 10:21 AM
#77
RE: Perry Pumps and regulators
Two other options for regulators that are more readily available are these.
I have been working with these units to get an installation comparable to a YS system.
I have been working with these units to get an installation comparable to a YS system.
07-31-2010, 09:31 PM
#79
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RE: Perry Pumps and regulators
My new Venus II has a pretty bad trim change from full to low fuel, so I decided to re-locate the tank to the CG. I bought a Perry pump. My OS120AX has a very nice boss in the middle of the backplate for the preassure fitting. My question is about the fuel tank vent. As this is an aerobatic airplane I will be flying upside ndown and all over the place. Is there a vent configuration that prevents fuel from exiting the tank through the vent. I was told that they make a plug for fuel vent lines that has a very small opening that will allow air to enter but is too small for any significant amount of fuel to escape through. If I use that type of plug with a bleed hole, I would surely need to remove it when fueling so the fuel, when full, has a way of discharging.
07-31-2010, 10:09 PM
#80
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RE: Perry Pumps and regulators
Try this or something like it. Perry makes one also. This is what I use on a .60 glow and Perry VP-30 pump. I just followed the Perry instructions and so far no problems. It is pumping about 16" from a tank almost on the CG.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXG869&P=ML
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXG869&P=ML
ORIGINAL: maynardrupp
My new Venus II has a pretty bad trim change from full to low fuel, so I decided to re-locate the tank to the CG. I bought a Perry pump. My OS120AX has a very nice boss in the middle of the backplate for the preassure fitting. My question is about the fuel tank vent. As this is an aerobatic airplane I will be flying upside ndown and all over the place. Is there a vent configuration that prevents fuel from exiting the tank through the vent. I was told that they make a plug for fuel vent lines that has a very small opening that will allow air to enter but is too small for any significant amount of fuel to escape through. If I use that type of plug with a bleed hole, I would surely need to remove it when fueling so the fuel, when full, has a way of discharging.
My new Venus II has a pretty bad trim change from full to low fuel, so I decided to re-locate the tank to the CG. I bought a Perry pump. My OS120AX has a very nice boss in the middle of the backplate for the preassure fitting. My question is about the fuel tank vent. As this is an aerobatic airplane I will be flying upside ndown and all over the place. Is there a vent configuration that prevents fuel from exiting the tank through the vent. I was told that they make a plug for fuel vent lines that has a very small opening that will allow air to enter but is too small for any significant amount of fuel to escape through. If I use that type of plug with a bleed hole, I would surely need to remove it when fueling so the fuel, when full, has a way of discharging.
08-06-2010, 04:33 PM
#81
RE: Perry Pumps and regulators
Run the vent out of the bottom of the cowl. Fuel will not leak out. If fuel is leaking out of your vent line, you have other issues. Do not constrict the vent line (or hook it up to muffler pressure) or you will have problems a-plenty trying to get you engine to run correctly.
08-06-2010, 08:14 PM
#82
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RE: Perry Pumps and regulators
Thanks everybody. I did buy one of those 1 way valves for the vent line, but logic now tells me that the vent line should never have fuel in it unless you are upside down and the engine quits. If that happens we have other concerns than worrying about a bit of fuel spilled through the vent line. I did back the pressure screw off 1/2 turn and I now feel that may have been a mistake as the engine wants to run lean even when I richen it some. I am now able to trail a bit of smoke but only after richening the high speed needle 2 turns from where I had it before the pump instal. The pump does work fine though. I just am not sure whether to increase the pressure or not.[&:]
08-06-2010, 11:23 PM
#83
RE: Perry Pumps and regulators
I would say turn the pump reg. screw in a quarter turn and see if that helps.
You should be able to set the high speed NV and peak it...maybe back it off rich a couple hundred r.p.m. just in case...then hold the nose up @ WOT and it should not lean out.
Most of the pump carbs I have or have adjusted for others seem to be set somewhere around a turn or no more than a turn and a half open, when the regulator screw is adj. right. (talking only about the Perry pump carbs )
When you think you're getting close, don't adjust the regulator screw more than about 1/8 turn at a time.
You should be able to set the high speed NV and peak it...maybe back it off rich a couple hundred r.p.m. just in case...then hold the nose up @ WOT and it should not lean out.
Most of the pump carbs I have or have adjusted for others seem to be set somewhere around a turn or no more than a turn and a half open, when the regulator screw is adj. right. (talking only about the Perry pump carbs )
When you think you're getting close, don't adjust the regulator screw more than about 1/8 turn at a time.
11-04-2010, 10:30 AM
#85
RE: Perry Pumps and regulators
Lynton,
Feeding the engine normally, also connected the oscillating pump and running the engine (and have the pump on nearly same level of fuel in the supply tank) it has to be possible the have a fuel flow in the bottle holding the end of the line 23 cm or lower above the centre of the pump. The head is about 0,25 PSI then, factory value.
The RPM of the engine isn't much important.
This is a method I use myself , but never try this with other brand pumps than own built.
density of fuel is 0.7 of density of water I think. (Nitro?)
.
Success and show me the result when you try the method.
Cees
Feeding the engine normally, also connected the oscillating pump and running the engine (and have the pump on nearly same level of fuel in the supply tank) it has to be possible the have a fuel flow in the bottle holding the end of the line 23 cm or lower above the centre of the pump. The head is about 0,25 PSI then, factory value.
The RPM of the engine isn't much important.
This is a method I use myself , but never try this with other brand pumps than own built.
density of fuel is 0.7 of density of water I think. (Nitro?)
.
Success and show me the result when you try the method.
Cees
12-23-2010, 04:39 PM
#86
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RE: Perry Pumps and regulators
ORIGINAL: maynardrupp
Thanks everybody. I did buy one of those 1 way valves for the vent line, but logic now tells me that the vent line should never have fuel in it unless you are upside down and the engine quits. If that happens we have other concerns than worrying about a bit of fuel spilled through the vent line. I did back the pressure screw off 1/2 turn and I now feel that may have been a mistake as the engine wants to run lean even when I richen it some. I am now able to trail a bit of smoke but only after richening the high speed needle 2 turns from where I had it before the pump instal. The pump does work fine though. I just am not sure whether to increase the pressure or not.[&:]
Thanks everybody. I did buy one of those 1 way valves for the vent line, but logic now tells me that the vent line should never have fuel in it unless you are upside down and the engine quits. If that happens we have other concerns than worrying about a bit of fuel spilled through the vent line. I did back the pressure screw off 1/2 turn and I now feel that may have been a mistake as the engine wants to run lean even when I richen it some. I am now able to trail a bit of smoke but only after richening the high speed needle 2 turns from where I had it before the pump instal. The pump does work fine though. I just am not sure whether to increase the pressure or not.[&:]
I then added a T-line so that it would not be soo rich.
This led to a Non-responsive HighSpeed Needle....
I Believe, I ended up with my head gaskets seizing to the head....Not a good.
I ended up getting a replacement....
I then ran a tuned pipe and header... I am currently having issues with it being either lean, or rich...
sometimes rich, to lean... as it goes through the fuel tank....
I may try the perry pump again.
I know the real issue is the OS CARB....THe barrel is too large....
PITA, if you use nothing but the stock muffler...
I hope your results are better than what I had when I 1st tried it....
Perhaps I was too worried about the HS needle only 1turn out...???
01-04-2022, 02:36 PM
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Hi RoKit,
Here you go -
you will need crankcase pressure to operate the pump. You might be able to find a nipple that replaces one of the rear cover bolts. The 2 top bolts sometimes are drilled straight through to the inside the crackcase.
Here you go -
you will need crankcase pressure to operate the pump. You might be able to find a nipple that replaces one of the rear cover bolts. The 2 top bolts sometimes are drilled straight through to the inside the crackcase.
10-04-2022, 08:40 AM
#89
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Gents,
My way of thinking because the name of the thread is
"Perry pumps and regulators."
The (Perry) pump
(Perry) pumps do not give you fuel injection, so you always need a metering system to get the right fuel air ratio and the carburetor ventury and sucking inlet of the engine will do that for you.
Using a (Perry) pump, you normally need less fuel sucking pressure, so to have more power you can use a greater bore, with the result less resistance of the carburetor but it still is a metering system.
Using a pump can give a better, more stabile fuel air ratio, more independent of the position of the plane and level of fuel in the tank in full power situation than without having one.
Because of the higher carburetor inlet fuel pressure when using a pump, you need a two needle carburetor to prevent the engine gets too much fuel in low power rate.
Adjustment of the pressure in midrange and optimal fuel air ratio at max does not guaranty me the optimal fuel air ratio in the mid range but only one fact, the engine does get (more than) enough.
When you cannot optimize the midrange with a Perry pump you can try to modify the characteristic of the (“low”) needle. I did it in the past for my Webra Speed 10 cc (0,60) with pipe and “standard” carburetor. Maybe this is done by Perry with their carbs.
The regulator
There were more than 2 brands (Iron Bay / Cline) of fuel pressure regulators in the past and I built them even myself for more than 30 years.
A fuel pressure regulator gives you a more optimal fuel air ratio for your engine, less or even not depending of position of the plane or level of the fuel in the tank.
When using a fuel pressure regulator you also can use a greater bore carburetor so less resistance and more power, just as with the pump.
When using a pressure regulator the inlet fuel pressure of the carburetor normally is lower than when using a pump so you have often a better fuel air ratio in the midrange and even on a lower power level than that.
You have to check if the exhaust pressure is enough to get enough inlet pressure for the pressure regulator in “nose up” position, if not, you can generate more tank pressure by using a check valve between exhaust and tank., When you use one, you have to dé-pressurize the tank after the flight or have to make a very little tiny air outlet hole between check valve and tank.
You can use crankcase pressure by using a tap on the crankshaft housing or back plate (with check valve) for the tank but you will have a lot of pressure, about 7 PSI on your tank, so be careful and think about not forget the dé pressurizing after the flight. (with a fuel tank leakage you have to drain the plane!)
My Conclusions, to make my story complete
All my points are independent of two stroke or four and even a brand, it’s important to look at fuel consumption because with a pump on a four stroke the engine maybe is as thirsty as a 2 stroke!
Last point and not technical, I think using a fuel pressure regulator is typical Dutch, because we want power for money and not a wet airplane. I use them on all my planes, see the picture.
Two regulators, one "experimental" pump/regulator like Walbro.
Walbro a brand of carburators, does show us, making a fuel air ratio is something else than making horsepowers!
Just my two cents for any drop of fuel.
Cees
Edit: Walbro description
My way of thinking because the name of the thread is
"Perry pumps and regulators."
The (Perry) pump
(Perry) pumps do not give you fuel injection, so you always need a metering system to get the right fuel air ratio and the carburetor ventury and sucking inlet of the engine will do that for you.
Using a (Perry) pump, you normally need less fuel sucking pressure, so to have more power you can use a greater bore, with the result less resistance of the carburetor but it still is a metering system.
Using a pump can give a better, more stabile fuel air ratio, more independent of the position of the plane and level of fuel in the tank in full power situation than without having one.
Because of the higher carburetor inlet fuel pressure when using a pump, you need a two needle carburetor to prevent the engine gets too much fuel in low power rate.
Adjustment of the pressure in midrange and optimal fuel air ratio at max does not guaranty me the optimal fuel air ratio in the mid range but only one fact, the engine does get (more than) enough.
When you cannot optimize the midrange with a Perry pump you can try to modify the characteristic of the (“low”) needle. I did it in the past for my Webra Speed 10 cc (0,60) with pipe and “standard” carburetor. Maybe this is done by Perry with their carbs.
The regulator
There were more than 2 brands (Iron Bay / Cline) of fuel pressure regulators in the past and I built them even myself for more than 30 years.
A fuel pressure regulator gives you a more optimal fuel air ratio for your engine, less or even not depending of position of the plane or level of the fuel in the tank.
When using a fuel pressure regulator you also can use a greater bore carburetor so less resistance and more power, just as with the pump.
When using a pressure regulator the inlet fuel pressure of the carburetor normally is lower than when using a pump so you have often a better fuel air ratio in the midrange and even on a lower power level than that.
You have to check if the exhaust pressure is enough to get enough inlet pressure for the pressure regulator in “nose up” position, if not, you can generate more tank pressure by using a check valve between exhaust and tank., When you use one, you have to dé-pressurize the tank after the flight or have to make a very little tiny air outlet hole between check valve and tank.
You can use crankcase pressure by using a tap on the crankshaft housing or back plate (with check valve) for the tank but you will have a lot of pressure, about 7 PSI on your tank, so be careful and think about not forget the dé pressurizing after the flight. (with a fuel tank leakage you have to drain the plane!)
My Conclusions, to make my story complete
All my points are independent of two stroke or four and even a brand, it’s important to look at fuel consumption because with a pump on a four stroke the engine maybe is as thirsty as a 2 stroke!
Last point and not technical, I think using a fuel pressure regulator is typical Dutch, because we want power for money and not a wet airplane. I use them on all my planes, see the picture.
Two regulators, one "experimental" pump/regulator like Walbro.
Walbro a brand of carburators, does show us, making a fuel air ratio is something else than making horsepowers!
Just my two cents for any drop of fuel.
Cees
Edit: Walbro description
How make this fuel pressure regulator?
Pawel
03-14-2023, 06:23 PM
#90
Need to determine if rear mounted Perry Pump needs any work before starting engine
Short Story: I need to know if anyone has instructions for interconnecting and setting up the Perry Pump / Perry Carburetor combo that came on the unused 1972 OS Max H60F GR engine I purchased off of eBay.
Details: I purchased an unused OS Max H60F GR engine off eBay that has a pre-installed Perry Pump (on the rear) and a Perry Carburetor. The engine was manufactured around 1972 and has a Black Head. I know when the engine was manufactured because I have another engine like it that came with the stock OS Carburetor. I'm looking for some documentation for the Perry Pump / Carburetor combo that was installed on the engine. I "think" the engine has never been run because: 1) there's no evidence of carbon on the Piston, Cylinder, and Exhaust Port, 2) The engine was packaged in it's original box and all of the accessories such as the Muffler, Allen Wrenches, Exhaust Baffle, and round Prop Nut are still in their original bags brand new. I was told that in the 1972 timeframe engines were upgraded with the Perry Pump / Carburetor combination and then re-sold. Maybe that's the case with this engine. Please let me know if you have some set-up and running information on the pump and carburetor. Thank you.
The Backplate was removed so oil could be put on rear bearing so it could be freed up from being stored for 50 years. Initially, when I got the engine the crank shaft wouldn't turn. However, after putting some oil on the top of the Piston, in the Exhaust Port, and down the Carburetor Venture the engine freed up with very little resistance when turned.
This photo shows the Perry Pump that came pre-mounted on this engine. The Backplate with the pump must be a custom made part for this engine.
This phot shows the Perry Pump that came with the engine. This Carburetor came with a "slide valve" on the Port side of the motor.
Details: I purchased an unused OS Max H60F GR engine off eBay that has a pre-installed Perry Pump (on the rear) and a Perry Carburetor. The engine was manufactured around 1972 and has a Black Head. I know when the engine was manufactured because I have another engine like it that came with the stock OS Carburetor. I'm looking for some documentation for the Perry Pump / Carburetor combo that was installed on the engine. I "think" the engine has never been run because: 1) there's no evidence of carbon on the Piston, Cylinder, and Exhaust Port, 2) The engine was packaged in it's original box and all of the accessories such as the Muffler, Allen Wrenches, Exhaust Baffle, and round Prop Nut are still in their original bags brand new. I was told that in the 1972 timeframe engines were upgraded with the Perry Pump / Carburetor combination and then re-sold. Maybe that's the case with this engine. Please let me know if you have some set-up and running information on the pump and carburetor. Thank you.
The Backplate was removed so oil could be put on rear bearing so it could be freed up from being stored for 50 years. Initially, when I got the engine the crank shaft wouldn't turn. However, after putting some oil on the top of the Piston, in the Exhaust Port, and down the Carburetor Venture the engine freed up with very little resistance when turned.
This photo shows the Perry Pump that came pre-mounted on this engine. The Backplate with the pump must be a custom made part for this engine.
This phot shows the Perry Pump that came with the engine. This Carburetor came with a "slide valve" on the Port side of the motor.
03-15-2023, 04:42 PM
#91
My Feedback: (121)
Assuming everything is brand new, the diaphragm in that pump is 50 years old. I would flush the pump with methanol, then fill the pump with methanol and connect the inlet to the outlet with a piece of fuel tubing and let it sit for a couple of days. Hopefully, this will restore elasticity to the diaphragm. I had an OS 60 FSR with the same Perry pump and carb (about 1975; so just a couple of years later) which ran great once I got the pump adjusted. Mine had way too much pressure. I think screwing the brass bolt on the back of the pump out reduces pressure, but I’m not sure. I have the directions somewhere and will look it up to clarify. Nice engine!
will
will
