I acquired a Phoenix 8
04-14-2010, 05:48 PM
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
Nice Plane. Perry Carb obvious, but that is the funniest looking Webra I have ever seen . I think it just might be something else. I have been known to be wrong before,:-). Paul.
04-14-2010, 06:17 PM
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
David,
the Kraft Multicons, other than being a tad heavy, are quite nice. When operated, they have a nice slow and staggered movement which is more scale like in appearance. They also positively lock in both the up and down positions provided they have a power source to draw from. Like Robert says, a separate battery these days is not a bad idea but I wouldn't scrap them.
There is little difference in concept between the Multicons and the modern electric retracts being produced today (E-Flite, KMP, etc.). The triggering mechanism is self contained along with an IC on-board each unit today. With the Multicons, the Kraft servo amp (octopus box) works as the trigger for all three (or two) units.
There were at least two versions of Multicons produced - a 2.4V version and a 4.8V version. The first were designed to work with center tap battery voltage back in the 4.8V airborne pack days. This was when Kraft servos used 4 pin connectors where two pins were used for signalling. Those Multicons used red and white leads and extensions along with equivalent 2.4V motors in the units (see first photo).
The later 4.8V units used red and black leads and motors and eventually were also adapted for 3 pin connectors which the Kraft system switched to (and is used by all modern radios).
Several different amps were made some specifically to work with Proline radios rather than Kraft. The two systems worked a little differently. However, there were essentially two models of amps - the 051 and 047. The former used 4 octopus leads while the latter, and more modern, used 3 leads (see schematic document). Basically, the 2 lead mains were connected to a 3 or 4 pin Y-connector (much like today) which in turn was connected to one of the amp leads (again 3 or 4 pin). The nose gear lead was connected to a separate 2 pin amp lead. A third 3/4 pin lead from the amp was connected to the RX which provided the DPDT power and polarity action which triggered the mechanism in the units.
As of this time, I am still uncertain what the fourth 4 pin lead was for on the older 051 4-pin units but I've been told that they may have been for a pass through connection from the battery to the RX providing 2.4V power directly to the amp (servo). Later, it was decided to power the amp directly from the RX. In any event, you probably have a more modern 3 lead 4.8V 3-pin 047 amp. As mentioned, if your amp works, a simple extension cord with the appropriate Kraft connector on one end and an S or J connector on the other should get your units working. Alternatively, you could just solder some new connectors on to the amp - probably a better idea. You can test your amp easily without having to do any soldering with a modern S connector plugged into the amp properly (observe polarity).
As a second option, a simple DTDP switch can be used to operate the retracts using a mini servo. Basically the polarity of the leads is reversed and fed to the retract units every time the switch is actuated. An overly complex switch assembly is shown on one of the photos. Works like a charm.
Hope this helps,
David.
PS The amps shown are 1) 3-wire 2) 4-wire 3) Proline 3-pin 4-wire.
the Kraft Multicons, other than being a tad heavy, are quite nice. When operated, they have a nice slow and staggered movement which is more scale like in appearance. They also positively lock in both the up and down positions provided they have a power source to draw from. Like Robert says, a separate battery these days is not a bad idea but I wouldn't scrap them.
There is little difference in concept between the Multicons and the modern electric retracts being produced today (E-Flite, KMP, etc.). The triggering mechanism is self contained along with an IC on-board each unit today. With the Multicons, the Kraft servo amp (octopus box) works as the trigger for all three (or two) units.
There were at least two versions of Multicons produced - a 2.4V version and a 4.8V version. The first were designed to work with center tap battery voltage back in the 4.8V airborne pack days. This was when Kraft servos used 4 pin connectors where two pins were used for signalling. Those Multicons used red and white leads and extensions along with equivalent 2.4V motors in the units (see first photo).
The later 4.8V units used red and black leads and motors and eventually were also adapted for 3 pin connectors which the Kraft system switched to (and is used by all modern radios).
Several different amps were made some specifically to work with Proline radios rather than Kraft. The two systems worked a little differently. However, there were essentially two models of amps - the 051 and 047. The former used 4 octopus leads while the latter, and more modern, used 3 leads (see schematic document). Basically, the 2 lead mains were connected to a 3 or 4 pin Y-connector (much like today) which in turn was connected to one of the amp leads (again 3 or 4 pin). The nose gear lead was connected to a separate 2 pin amp lead. A third 3/4 pin lead from the amp was connected to the RX which provided the DPDT power and polarity action which triggered the mechanism in the units.
As of this time, I am still uncertain what the fourth 4 pin lead was for on the older 051 4-pin units but I've been told that they may have been for a pass through connection from the battery to the RX providing 2.4V power directly to the amp (servo). Later, it was decided to power the amp directly from the RX. In any event, you probably have a more modern 3 lead 4.8V 3-pin 047 amp. As mentioned, if your amp works, a simple extension cord with the appropriate Kraft connector on one end and an S or J connector on the other should get your units working. Alternatively, you could just solder some new connectors on to the amp - probably a better idea. You can test your amp easily without having to do any soldering with a modern S connector plugged into the amp properly (observe polarity).
As a second option, a simple DTDP switch can be used to operate the retracts using a mini servo. Basically the polarity of the leads is reversed and fed to the retract units every time the switch is actuated. An overly complex switch assembly is shown on one of the photos. Works like a charm.
Hope this helps,
David.
PS The amps shown are 1) 3-wire 2) 4-wire 3) Proline 3-pin 4-wire.
04-14-2010, 06:25 PM
#31
Thread Starter
RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
david, wow, a lot to absorb. thx.
roo, here is a side view of the engine. there is a K superimposed over an arrow or however you describe the symbol.
roo, here is a side view of the engine. there is a K superimposed over an arrow or however you describe the symbol.
04-14-2010, 06:43 PM
#32
RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
ORIGINAL: dhal22
david, wow, a lot to absorb. thx.
roo, here is a side view of the engine. there is a K superimposed over an arrow or however you describe the symbol.
david, wow, a lot to absorb. thx.
roo, here is a side view of the engine. there is a K superimposed over an arrow or however you describe the symbol.
That is a Kraft .61...not a Webra...you can get parts from mecoa. (it's still being sold as the RJL K.61 )
doxilia...thank you for the Multicon info![8D]
04-14-2010, 09:07 PM
#34
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
ORIGINAL: doxilia
There were at least two versions of Multicons produced - a 2.4V version and a 4.8V version. The first were designed to work with center tap battery voltage back in the 4.8V airborne pack days. This was when Kraft servos used 4 pin connectors where two pins were used for signalling. Those Multicons used red and white leads and extensions along with equivalent 2.4V motors in the units (see first photo).
David.
There were at least two versions of Multicons produced - a 2.4V version and a 4.8V version. The first were designed to work with center tap battery voltage back in the 4.8V airborne pack days. This was when Kraft servos used 4 pin connectors where two pins were used for signalling. Those Multicons used red and white leads and extensions along with equivalent 2.4V motors in the units (see first photo).
David.
I was unable to upload the diagrams of the Multicon manual in the previous post. Here they are.
David.
04-15-2010, 03:58 AM
#35
RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
ORIGINAL: dhal22
the plane was stored in competition condition in '82 (i think) and unused since then. i will take a closer look at the engine and report back.
ORIGINAL: Taurus Flyer
David, I read your first post:
Also the engine is a piped Webra, a 1st for me. Hopefully the seller will clue me in on the engine's condition.
What type of Webra is that?
Cees
David, I read your first post:
Also the engine is a piped Webra, a 1st for me. Hopefully the seller will clue me in on the engine's condition.
What type of Webra is that?
Cees
the plane was stored in competition condition in '82 (i think) and unused since then. i will take a closer look at the engine and report back.
When it looks like a Webra (duck, egg) it is not always a Webra (duck, egg).
Webra glow engines, normally have 6 hex socket bolts in the head only the smaller (Glo Star, 3,5 ccm) has 6 slotted screws.
You write:
the plane was stored in competition condition in '82 (i think) and unused since then. i will take a closer look at the engine and report back.
What do you call competition condition in the USA? Is this a joke?
For this reason I did take a closer look to the engine, report me back please if I am right because I have to read it all from the picture.
Maybe you can have profit of this post when acquiring a next model and engine, because after cleaning most of these traces are gone.
1.
That plane looks like it was stored nose down after a dead stick and never was cleaned (orange oval and arrows of oil traces on the head). Probably there is a lot of rust inside. You also can see the oil in the propeller as result of this way of storage (orange oval)!!
2.
It looks it was still in service while not all the mounting screws were tight on! (blue oval).
3.
The position of the main needle valve don’t looks normal and the fuel line over the needle probably was because the needle did not maintain the right position because of vibrations (green oval).
4.
The engine is also dirty of metal to metal contact of the element in the fuel line (is that a filter?) (yellow oval). Old AM radio’s did not like metal to metal contact too, lucky the “filter†did not have much metal in it.
5.
Last point is it looks like the head screws are destroyed as result of using a bad screwdriver so maybe there is a lack of compression??
Just some points to check and do you have to ask the seller anything?
Yes why he did tell you it was a Webra!!
I did make a reference picture for you to recognize side exhaust engines, picture 2, left to right: Webra Speed 61, OS Maz 61 FX, MVVS 10 ccm, Moki 10 RC, Super Tigre G60, HB61, OPS RC60, OS Max 60 H.
Cees
04-15-2010, 05:45 AM
#36
RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
David,
Great post on the Kraft retracts.... and I thought that I was the only one that still thinks the Krafts are better than sliced bread !!!!
I love the old Krafts and even have a few spare parts for them....so nice to watch them in operation.
Dan
Carolina Custom Aircraft
Great post on the Kraft retracts.... and I thought that I was the only one that still thinks the Krafts are better than sliced bread !!!!
I love the old Krafts and even have a few spare parts for them....so nice to watch them in operation.
Dan
Carolina Custom Aircraft
04-15-2010, 08:44 AM
#37
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
dhal22, I have a complete set with instructions of the Kraft retracts. I used them in a Kaos in the mid '70s. Since I am just down the road from you, I will be glad to make a copy of them for you. One thing the instructions note is do not use a battery larger than 5.0 volts or less than 4.5 volts. There should be three wires coming out of the amplifier, one three wire with pins to connect to the receiver, two two wire strands one of which connects to a Y cable with a choke on it to connect to the main retracts.
Bruce
Bruce
04-15-2010, 10:50 AM
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
ORIGINAL: landeck
dhal22, I have a complete set with instructions of the Kraft retracts. I used them in a Kaos in the mid '70s. Since I am just down the road from you, I will be glad to make a copy of them for you. One thing the instructions note is do not use a battery larger than 5.0 volts or less than 4.5 volts. There should be three wires coming out of the amplifier, one three wire with pins to connect to the receiver, two two wire strands one of which connects to a Y cable with a choke on it to connect to the main retracts.
Bruce
dhal22, I have a complete set with instructions of the Kraft retracts. I used them in a Kaos in the mid '70s. Since I am just down the road from you, I will be glad to make a copy of them for you. One thing the instructions note is do not use a battery larger than 5.0 volts or less than 4.5 volts. There should be three wires coming out of the amplifier, one three wire with pins to connect to the receiver, two two wire strands one of which connects to a Y cable with a choke on it to connect to the main retracts.
Bruce
Although there were red and black leads which would traditionally imply ground on black and a positive potential on the red, actually the potential was reversed on the leads during each cycle so the units went from ground to positive potential (black/red) for one cycle to ground negative potential (red/black) for the other cycle. Basically a polarity reversal.
Although I haven't tested this, the four pin mains/Y connector should be replaceable for a standard 3 pin connector by joining the black leads to a common center pin and keeping the two red leads on two separate outer pins.
David.
04-15-2010, 11:09 AM
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
ORIGINAL: Deadstik
David,
Great post on the Kraft retracts.... and I thought that I was the only one that still thinks the Krafts are better than sliced bread !!!!
I love the old Krafts and even have a few spare parts for them....so nice to watch them in operation.
Dan
Carolina Custom Aircraft
David,
Great post on the Kraft retracts.... and I thought that I was the only one that still thinks the Krafts are better than sliced bread !!!!
I love the old Krafts and even have a few spare parts for them....so nice to watch them in operation.
Dan
Carolina Custom Aircraft
I picked up some sliced bread yesterday which was actually pretty good - different. Otherwise, I agree, the Kraft's are much better !
David.
04-15-2010, 03:56 PM
#40
Thread Starter
RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
ORIGINAL: landeck
dhal22, I have a complete set with instructions of the Kraft retracts. I used them in a Kaos in the mid '70s. Since I am just down the road from you, I will be glad to make a copy of them for you. One thing the instructions note is do not use a battery larger than 5.0 volts or less than 4.5 volts. There should be three wires coming out of the amplifier, one three wire with pins to connect to the receiver, two two wire strands one of which connects to a Y cable with a choke on it to connect to the main retracts.
Bruce
dhal22, I have a complete set with instructions of the Kraft retracts. I used them in a Kaos in the mid '70s. Since I am just down the road from you, I will be glad to make a copy of them for you. One thing the instructions note is do not use a battery larger than 5.0 volts or less than 4.5 volts. There should be three wires coming out of the amplifier, one three wire with pins to connect to the receiver, two two wire strands one of which connects to a Y cable with a choke on it to connect to the main retracts.
Bruce
04-18-2010, 06:24 PM
#42
Thread Starter
RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
ORIGINAL: proptop
That is a Kraft .61...not a Webra...you can get parts from mecoa. (it's still being sold as the RJL K.61 )
doxilia...thank you for the Multicon info![8D]
That is a Kraft .61...not a Webra...you can get parts from mecoa. (it's still being sold as the RJL K.61 )
doxilia...thank you for the Multicon info![8D]
now it's a YS .60. It drops right in, same bolt pattern as the Kraft.
04-18-2010, 07:20 PM
#43
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
Kewl engine there dave!!
What pipe are you planning to use?? You know how I like Carbon Fiber stuff right
... I've recently acquired a couple of used ES Carbon Fiber pipes with the purchase of a YS 1.60DZ and a OS 1.40 engine...Man I love those ES pipes!! I e-mailed the ES guy and learned that he makes pipes for the 60 short stroke engines!! He also has them for the .61 long stroke's too!! I think they are really Kewl...Just some FYI kinda info...
Heck...I'm sorta thinking I may sell all my aluminum pipes and order his CF pipes for most of my engines....I'm kinda crazy though... [sm=bananahead.gif]
What pipe are you planning to use?? You know how I like Carbon Fiber stuff right
... I've recently acquired a couple of used ES Carbon Fiber pipes with the purchase of a YS 1.60DZ and a OS 1.40 engine...Man I love those ES pipes!! I e-mailed the ES guy and learned that he makes pipes for the 60 short stroke engines!! He also has them for the .61 long stroke's too!! I think they are really Kewl...Just some FYI kinda info...Heck...I'm sorta thinking I may sell all my aluminum pipes and order his CF pipes for most of my engines....I'm kinda crazy though... [sm=bananahead.gif]
04-18-2010, 11:13 PM
#45
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
David,
Hatori 650?
There was something cool about that "all American" gear setup on your P8 (Kraft retracts & engine; American airframe design) but I imagine the K61 is in need of an overhaul.
Chuck,
ES's website:
http://www.escomposites.com/2%20cycle.htm
appears to be out of Utah. Aren't they Australian? Steep fares on those CF puppies!
What do you have in mind for the OS 1.4?
David.
Hatori 650?
There was something cool about that "all American" gear setup on your P8 (Kraft retracts & engine; American airframe design) but I imagine the K61 is in need of an overhaul.
Chuck,
ES's website:
http://www.escomposites.com/2%20cycle.htm
appears to be out of Utah. Aren't they Australian? Steep fares on those CF puppies!
What do you have in mind for the OS 1.4?
David.
04-19-2010, 06:45 AM
#47
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
Actually the Hatori 650 is for the long stroke engines and isn't the correct pipe for the short stroke engine...I *think* it's the Hatori 601 (or 604??) which is the correct pipe for the short stroke engine?? The numbers have changed over the years and I'd have to look it up to be sure...The last time I checked the Hatori short stroke pipes were pretty hard to come by...
Mac's has a 10cc pipe for short stroke engines (#1060)...(I have a couple of those I could make you a deal on... )
I was kinda recommending the ES pipe but they are a little pricey that's for sure...They are worth it to me for the "coolness factor" but may not be to everyone...They sound mighty good though... [8D]
I know Bolly pipes are Australian...I believe ES pipes are made here in the US...I have quite a few Bolly pipes that I've collected and I love them...They are all bumpy and kinda crude looking which makes them cool...The ES pipes are very slick and refined looking...They both sound different than an alumnium pipe...I like them allot...
Not sure what I'm going to do with the OS 1.40 RX, I just always wanted one...I found a used one in really nice condition that come with with a header and ES pipe...I kinda thought I would put it on a used Black Magic V-2 I recently purchased and save the 1.60DZ for a V-3 I have to finish...I've since decided (was advised) to keep the 1.60DZ on the V-2 and get another DZ when it comes time for the V-3...
Mac's has a 10cc pipe for short stroke engines (#1060)...(I have a couple of those I could make you a deal on...
)I was kinda recommending the ES pipe but they are a little pricey that's for sure...They are worth it to me for the "coolness factor" but may not be to everyone...They sound mighty good though... [8D]
I know Bolly pipes are Australian...I believe ES pipes are made here in the US...I have quite a few Bolly pipes that I've collected and I love them...They are all bumpy and kinda crude looking which makes them cool...The ES pipes are very slick and refined looking...They both sound different than an alumnium pipe...I like them allot...
Not sure what I'm going to do with the OS 1.40 RX, I just always wanted one...I found a used one in really nice condition that come with with a header and ES pipe...I kinda thought I would put it on a used Black Magic V-2 I recently purchased and save the 1.60DZ for a V-3 I have to finish...I've since decided (was advised) to keep the 1.60DZ on the V-2 and get another DZ when it comes time for the V-3...
04-19-2010, 08:07 AM
#48
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
Make sure you replace the rear bearings with a stainless steel set. . . I've had two OS 1.40's and it is just something that needs to be done, even if they are new. The original bearings will rust and cause all kinds of random problems. If you have a bearing shop near you just take the old bearings in to get a replacement.
.
.
If you don't know how to replace the bearings, send me a PM and I'll give you the "gouge"; the whole process takes about 30 minutes. . .
.
.
If you don't know how to replace the bearings, send me a PM and I'll give you the "gouge"; the whole process takes about 30 minutes. . .
04-19-2010, 02:09 PM
#49
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RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
David,
not sure I'd use mixed retracts. Either use the trike set of Kraft or pull them all out. It's not worth the hassle and weight of using mixed electrics with pneumatics/mechanicals.
If you want light, use mechanicals, if you want cool and easy, use the Kraft's. Any reason to not just keep the Kraft?
David.
not sure I'd use mixed retracts. Either use the trike set of Kraft or pull them all out. It's not worth the hassle and weight of using mixed electrics with pneumatics/mechanicals.
If you want light, use mechanicals, if you want cool and easy, use the Kraft's. Any reason to not just keep the Kraft?
David.
04-19-2010, 03:28 PM
#50
Thread Starter
RE: I acquired a Phoenix 8
david, i wasn't going to mix retracts. sorry for the confusion. i just need to look at the various bits of info given and see if the any gives me the advice i need for the 4 wire amplifier. the krafts would be fine as i don't fly a lot.