RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

So are there really people out there who just surf the forums in search of ARF discussions? I guess so.[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Rainedav,

I assume the target of your post was me ... not quite sure of your point, although if you would like to make it directly to me or clarify, please do so. I am unaware of the forum ARF surf rules, so I would appreciate you directing me to those also so I can sharpen my forum etiquette. Thanks for your help!

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Nitro Dew, yes I was referring to your post. Although it wasn't a personal attack. My point is this: Almost without fail, everytime I read a discussion of modeling here at RCU, a comment eventually appears that attempts to devalue building in some way, or to at least argue it as inconsequential, suggesting that it makes no difference whether a plane is an arf or is built.

It does make a difference and it does matter. Modelers take a great deal of pride in their craftsmanship and derive a great deal of satisfaction from it. Otherwise they wouldn't do it. For many people the "trasmitter portion" of the hobby is only half of the picture.

To be fair, many of the comments I read that attempt to lessen the significance of modeling are reactions to comments that are perceived as criticisms of arfs. So, they come across as defensive in nature. It's the form these discussions take on that bothers me, not the arfs.

There's nothing wrong with arfs. There's a whole lot of good about them in many ways. But that doesn't mean that they are the same as models built from kits or plans. It also does not imply that they are better or worse. In fact, I don't even think the two should be compared at all.

One last point: the "no time to build" is probably a bigger dead horse. In reality, we all manage to find time for what is most important to us. Whether that's family, work, sports and excercise, shopping, sleeping, computing, flying, building or whatever. We all get the same 24hrs each day. It's not that anyone actually has less time. It's that everybody chooses how to spend their time.

So, I apologize if you felt targeted.

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

I'm not rereading the post to figure out who devalued building ... who cares. Take some valuum and build and build and build! I had said in my post, you so rudely responded to, that I didn't give a rat's behind (I think?) what you fly. Fly a lawn mower or a pizza ... Enjoy man, relax and enjoy. Get yourself a massage or something ...

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Some thoughts about ARFs and “classic pattern” flying.

As far as I know there is only one 60 size ARF still available that that might qualify as a “classic pattern” aircraft and that is the Global Kwik Fly 60 L 2nd Edition. One of the guys in our club has one and it doesn’t look much like any of Phil Kraft’s Kwik Flis to me. It is mostly a Kwik Fly in name only. See image below. Plus the covering is coming off and is wrinkled.

You might qualify some of the current 60 size Ugly Stick ARFs as classics but none of them that I know of are the same size as Phil Kraft’s original Ugly Stik. The original Jenson Ugly Stik was a fine flying aircraft but not exactly a hot pattern ship.

The Globe Kwik Fly and Ugly Stiks have not been much of a topic on this forum. The guys at Wing talked about building custom “classic pattern” aircraft last year but the idea apparently died.

Fortunately there are still a lot of great kits (current manufacturers and old ones on ebay/RCU) and plans available for flyers that are looking for a “classic pattern” ship. Most all of them are pretty easy and quick to build especially the glass and foam kits.

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

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There are as many value systems of ARF versus homebuilts as there are people.

I have never been able to build straight enough for pattern competition. That was one of the biggest reasons that I didn't go anywhere in pattern. Not that I would have been anything great anyway, but at least some of the guys on the circuit would have remembered me.

The folks that could build straight in my area would not follow instructions. They would add their own little twists (too much incidence or dihedral), thinking that they knew better than the designer of the model (me). I flew in a few pattern contests and placed or won in all - lower classes. Nothing high falootin'.

I also had a devining basement in my home. You could take a perfectly straight airframe down there and within two weeks it would be warped. Crooked pattern ships are miserable to fly. Forget building anything straight and having it stay straight down there. <G>

The Tower Kaos is a pretty good ARF for folks piddling around in the lower classes. That is probably what I will fly until I get my Kaos built from plans.

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

You say you don't devaule building, then in the next two words devalue building!

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

That ARF only looks like and is called a Kwik Fly, but it is not a Kwik Fly. A trainer would make a better SPA pattern plane. If only for its excess size and weight. So the Global Kwik Fly really isn't a Classic Pattern ARF.

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Artisan, I'm sure you are a very good craftsman. Aside from that, I don't think any fuse builds straighter than a Bridi fuse. That thick, flat slab top on which you build the fuse upsidedown will pretty much guanantee a true build.

[What I meant by devaluing building is the act of making it inconsequential. By saying it doesn't matter, or saying who gives a rats whatever is the same as saying it is insignificant, which is a means of devaluing or degrading its worth. I was simply saying that building is worth a great deal to many people. It is absolutely not inconsequential.]

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Sport Pilot - my mistake, I thought I was in the Classic Pattern ARFS thread, but it seems I unknowingly entered the Classic Building Defensive Moron thread! Believe it or not, this is not my nature, but you guys are killing me! I have never, in any of my post, referred negatively to builders, although, I'm beginning to understand why others may bash you! I entered this thread looking for Classic Pattern ARFS, instead I find bashing, and get drawn in also ... SOMEHOW! I believe I'll move on to modern pattern ARF shopping ...

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Just so happens most of my planes are ARF's, and I would love a classic arf. But when to say you don't give a rats a&& about a builders plane, that is a very very negative statement! It dosesn shows indifferance but instead, contempt for the builder. It says you would never complement his aircraft and would just as soon he not be there.

So before accusing others of negativity, re-read what you said, and what the extra color you added really means.

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

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Have you seen Global's version of an "RCM Trainer"? No way does that thing resemble the real RCM Trainer. Pathetic. Ditto their Kwik-Fly, or however they have named it.

No, I don't see them as villains, but it is obvious that they are trying to ride on the fame of previous designs. It would have been really easy to produce a model that was much closer to the name sake without suffering any penalty whatsoever. Then they would have had many more sales. Those that don't know the difference would have bought them anyway. Those that do know the difference would have represented additional sales. What were they thinking?

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

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Thank you for the kind words.

Now that I'm flying old classic pattern ships for sport, it doesn't matter if the wing is slightly warped or if the fuselage is a little crooked.

You are right in saying that it is difficult to build a crooked Kaos fuselage. I think that most of mine started out straight, but then the environment took over and did its work on my models. A dehumidifer in humid climates would have solved my problems. If I had it to do over again, I would have bought one and used it.

I'm having fun collecting old kits and engines now. I have three OS.61SF engines that will power my old timey pattern type planes. I get the biggest kick out of watching them go straight up without screaming their brains out. <G>

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Sport Pilot - I took your advice and re-read my original post, and I quote, "I don't give a rat's behind what the next guy flies, I like 'em all." Is there something about "I like 'em all" that confuses you? Your incorrect quotes and accusations hurt ... :( BTW, what do you know about the Infinite 90 ARF? I'm interested in buying one ...

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Maybe we should just clear the air on this thing. Or, at least try to.

I see RCUniverse as a place for people to casually shoot the breeze about model airplanes. (granted some of the forums that are high-stakes competition oriented take things much more seriously). To me it's like sitting around with those stragglers that stay at the field after everyone else has gone home and it's getting to dark to fly. Opinions fly and comments tend to reflect what people really think about this or that subject. But, it's still all taken with a grain of salt.

The bottom line is that this is an internet forum. It's not a Supreme Court hearing. Add to that the fact that internet anonymity allows people to say things they might not say in person and it's hard to take things too seriously.

I'd bet that the odds are that if we were all flying together at some field we'd have a good time and enjoy each other's company.

Maybe what Nitro Dew really meant is that he's not going to judge anyone based on what they fly. It may not have read that way, but I get the feeling that's what you were getting at. Am I right?

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Absolutely raindav ... I've seen models at the field that I don't particularly care for, although it's not my place to judge anyone. I appreciate the person just being out there flying - the difference between us, I personally don't recognize whether it's a run of the mill ARF, a recovered ARF, or a handcrafted A/C. They're all unique, and at the field for the same reason I'm there - to fly. You've got time to build and that's your enjoyment, go for it, I barely have time to get an ARF together, but I have other life priorities that come first. My reason to be in this hobby is different than those I've ranted with - I like to fly and not build. Although, I can find just as much appreciation for a good flyer as you may find for a good builder. Good luck and happy flights.

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

The World Models A-6 is a ARF. There are still some available. They fly great and there are several that compete regularly in SPA contests! There are some posted on the SPA home page for sale right now! Personally, I have two ARF's in my stable and 7kits. I am currently flying one other ARF and two kits planes and one original design almost completed. My approach to planes is, do they look good and do they fly great. I don't care if it comes as a box of balsa or almost ready to fly! I'm in the hobby to have fun and fly airplanes.

Jon

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Well said. Ultimately, in the end we're on the same page. To have fun. (I grew up in Ricmond and used to have some relatives in or near Yorktown. They had a house right on the river. I remember it being very beautiful.)

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

How about some pics of my 25 year old Ariel pattern, restored about ready for 1st flight.
I think Dick Hanson's son was the designer of this plane.

Catch it also on RCU Shot of the Moment.
Bobz

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Because when you use curse words the whole meaning is hatefull. I don't use such language unless I am angry, if you use them casually then you should consider what others think. The whole rest of your post is completly thrown out of my mind. IMO the moderator should have deleted your phrase.

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Where?

http://ecsvr.com/abm/shopexd.asp?id=1289

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Sport Pilot - I understand my use of the phrase "rat's behind" angst you, and in hindsight, I could have been more PC. Although, I challenge you to show me where I used the word a&&. According to Wedster's, "behind" is defined as BUTTOCKS, or as Forrest Gump would say "BUT--TOCKS! So, feel free to contact the Moderator or the cyber nazis ... If I'm guilty of anything, it's being obnoxious and rude! Just ensure you use the correct word when referencing my writings! Thank you!

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Personal preferences about building vs ARFs aside, I believe there is a very valuable function for SPA competitors that only the ARF can perform--ie get a newcomer to SPA in the air quickly with a highly competitive plane. Newcomers to SPA can fly any plane as a Novice, a decision that was made to encourage people to "get their feet wet" and give SPA a try. However, what do you do if you're a former pattern competitor who wants to start out in the higher classes, or a Novice who wants to compete with an SPA-legal plane from the beginning? A truly competitive ARF is invaluable in these circumstances. The Airborne Models A-6 Intruder you mentioned has been a kind-of "go-to" full-size plane for the many newcomers we've seen this summer. We had two brothers who are young Expert pilots join us at the end of last year---- both of them really know what they're doing when it comes to pattern competition, and both chose the Intruder, (making small mods that help flying characteristics, but still a lot faster than building from a kit--much less from scratch). When we see a new person, the Intruder is always one of the first planes recommended to get somebody in the air quickly.

If there are any ARF manufacturing executives out there, we could use other quality SPA-legal ARFS to choose from--we can give you plenty of guidance about which planes should be produced.;):D

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

I'd be willing to build an SPA-legal plane for someone who really wants one.

RE: Classic Pattern ARFS
 

Ass, butt, buttocks, behind, all mean the same thing and thus the same curse word. Same as using darn instead of damn. All, when used in the proper phrase, express anger, non are a sin unless used with God or his name. When one detects anger, and it's not easy to tell the tone on the web, one often exaggerates and misinterprets the real meaning.