RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

Actually the King Cobra was produced after the Sig Kougar.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

Yes you were. The Kaos was the premier pattern plane of it's day and the Kougar was and still is a great pattern trainer. Joe bridi was one of the pattern greats. Comparing a Kaos to a modern pattern airplane is like comparing a 1960's indy car to a modern Indy racer. The Kaos was a 1970's airplane and in those days one of the best pattern airplanes made. All the big boys flew them. And they were flown in expert. Even a dirty Birdi or a Curare, or a Tiporare is old fashioned by todays standards but everyone had them when they first came out. You had to fly them if you wanted to win. Maybe today they are "sport" airplanes but just exactly is a "sport" airplane anyway. Today's sport planes were yesterday's trophy winners.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

I didn't say I was wrong about the Kaos. It is marketed as a sport plane, not pattern. Its days of being a premium pattern plane are long gone. The orginal point I was trying to make was that many modern sport planes are just as good at pattern as the older pattern planes. But somehow I got off track by using a bad example. The Ultra Sport for example will never be acceptable for SPA, though it is better than many that are.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

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What I don't understand is why folks want to argue over any of this? It doesn't matter who is "right", since it is all subjective and there is no right.

The SPA has bent over backwards so far to accomodate everyone's desires that, at least to me, they have lost the original intent of the group's purpose. No, I'm not slamming them, not in the least. They are a great bunch of guys, as far as I'm concerned. But the four-stroke engines running high nitro is why I quit pattern in the first place. And here we are again.

I don't hate four-strokes and I don't really care how much nitro someone else burns. I just miss the old days of two-strokes and even of tuned pipes, just a little. I've decided to fly them on my own and not to worry about flying in a contest. Frankly, I'm not up to contesting these days anyway, regardless of which engines they do or do not use.

I had a few models with retracts and they do make the model fly a lot better when retracted, but I never cared for all of the maintenance that they added.

I just bought a couple of OS.61SF engines - kind of the two-stroke equivalent of a four-stroke. Yes, it's contradictory. But that's me. <G>

Anyhoo, I think the SFs will power the Kaos "just right".

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

Bridi had the Kaos the same time that Phil Kraft was flying his design, the Kwik-Fli, which he won a world championship at the Nats with . Bridi's Kaos was then upgraded to the
Super Kaos, with the progressive tapered airfoil. I think that Kraft did a super Kwik Fli, or it was designated the Kwik-Fli III. Both very good pattern planes for their day.
Don Lowe's Phoenix series, which Dave Brown flew for all contest's.

Eventually these wonderful pattern ships were replaced by the big name pattern flyers, going to the new planes for the Las Vegas TOC's. I guess this is when the new designs, the Extra's, Yak's, etc., came into play for the serious pattern types.

If you look close at these old time pattern planes, they were all just modifications of Kazmirski's Taurus design. Eventually builders modified this plane with swept wings, (Phoenix series), slimmer fuselages, etc. Retracts came into play, more powerful engines, then tuned pipes, to pull these planes vertical losing no airspeed for the FAI patterns.
This is the best to my recollection, and the above comments on patterns, etc., may not be entirely accurate.

Crankpin
Vince Hobe Sound, FL [email protected]

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

Close enough for government work.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

I started flying Novice pattern in 1989 with a Goldberg Eagle 63. Who's to say what a pattern ship is? Back then the Eagle could fly the novice pattern with no problems except for the one horizontal roll. So what? I still placed a couple of times (there weren't many novices in those contests), and I was 12 years old, what did I care? Not all of us can have Chip Hyde as our caller/in-flight trimmer. But I digress. I gradually moved through a sport plane (Super Sportster) the next year, and finally a real pattern plane (Escape, yes, a Bridi model) the last year I competed in novice (really the last year I competed for over 10 years). By the time I had graduated to that point I had learned enough to win almost any contest I entered as a Novice, and never placed below 3rd with the Escape. Was I a better pilot? Probably. Did the airplane really make that much of a difference? You're damn right it did. The Sig kits mentioned in other posts, while good flying airplanes, were not pattern planes in my opinion. Could they fly it? Yes. Could they do it with the grace and precision expected from pattern planes? Only in the hands of the best pilots. But do we really want to live in a Communist state that requires all competitors to fly the exact same plane/engine/radio setup? I say to each his own on the pattern ship design, to tell the truth, to me the designs people fly today as "current" or "top-of-the-line" are not pattern ships. To me, if it doesn't have a tall/slim fuse and retracts, it's not a pattern ship. I'm looking to buy a new ship, but everything today comes with fixed gear and the engine is so big it requires a wider body than I'd like to see. I jumped off the pattern technology bandwagon not long after Bryan Hebert came out with the Patriot line. To me, those are some of the last true pattern planes out there. But that's just me. That's a pattern ship to me. Remember... at the beginning of this post a pattern ship to me was the exact same trainer I soloed on. God's honest truth, if I'm asked to judge as a contestant at a pattern contest, I'll probably be more inclined to give points to the guy flying the "non-pattern" plane rather than deduct from his score because his ship doesn't fit the mold that currently defines a "pattern ship." No matter what, we all need to remember one thing: we all got started in pattern for the same reasons, first and foremost to become better pilots, but also because we love the beauty of an airplane being able to draw a well-defined straight line, perform a graceful aerobatic maneuver, and then leave that maneuver with the same straight line we entered it. That is the heart and soul of pattern. That is how we grow the sport. That is why no matter how much we practice, we'll always believe we can do better. We are the perfectionists of the sport, but we must not under any circumstances become elitists. Don't make the guy at the contest flying an airplane that is not an "according to Hoyle" pattern ship feel like he needs a better airplane to be competitive, instead help him become a better competitor with what he has. He'll be a much better pilot for it, and you'll be a much better friend. As for me, I'm going to continue flying my .61-powered pattern bullet in the current AMA pattern until I can finish up my next project (which is the exact same airplane, but will have a YS .91 or 1.10 powering it), and my soon-to-be backup plane will be the Gator Flea I'm currently building. Hell, the Gator Flea will probably be a more competitive plane than the other one... Anyway, that's my 48 cents.... someone give me another 2 to buy a coke.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

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Roll a stock Kougar inverted, then push it into an outside loop. If you are like most flyers, the model will snaproll at the point of maximum Gs. It's a fact.

The designer, not being a pattern flyer, designed washout into the foam cores. If you built the wing right (some folks don't, but that's another story), the wash-out works as expected when flying upright. But it becomes wash-in when the model is inverted and looping or turning with its belly toward the inside of the maneuver. A good friend of mine did not know about the built-in wash-out and built the wing upside down. Every time he went to do a loop or a stall turn, the Kougar would snap to inverted flight. I asked him if he considered the built-in wash-out when he built the wing. He blushed. I knew the answer. <G>

Good pattern trainers do not have wash-out built into the foam cores. Also, the rudder on the Kougar provides tons of adverse roll because the center-of-pressure on the rudder is way too high. Not good for a pattern trainer.

Is it a good sport model? Absolutely, but there is nothing "pattern" about a Kougar. Pass on this one and get a Kaos.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

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Joe Bridi was a pioneer in design and fabrication. I, personally, have never heard of his win/loss ratio in pattern contests.

On the other hand, I think that Phil Kraft could have won with a de Bolt Jenny. That's just my impression, with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

I remember the Kwik-Fli having a horrible reputation for snaprolling on approach. Back in those days, if a model didn't land itself, it gained this type of reputation. Today it would be a tame model by comparison to its old reputation. I never built or bought a Kwik-Fli because I have a hatred for barn door ailerons. I have long since flown models with barn door ailerons and have found my hatred to be justified. <G>

Back when servos cost $35 to $40 a piece and the average man at a good job was making $125 a week gross, we didn't think of putting servos out into the wings of our models. We used either torque rods or bellcranks.

Bellcranks and barn door ailerons were an invitation for flutter (incorrect term that still persists today - ask Don Lowe or Ron Van Putte).

I may just build a Kwik-Fli before I croak. I'm not sure that I can bring myself to use barn door ailerons, but the mod to strips is a piece of cake. :)

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

I have had several Kougars and still have a kit I haven't built. My Dad has built 5 of them. Not one Kougar either one of us had would snap roll in either an inside or outside loop unless we wanted them to. That incudes an inverted outside loop. Maybe our airplanes weren't told they had that problem. Who knows?

mjfrederick,

if you placed third or higher in 4 AMA sanctioned contests you had to move to the nixt higher class.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

True on the move's up. I never did get to Expert, which I think you moved to after 3 wins in class B. I think a lot of guys sandbagged in B, so they did not have to compete with the other "Experts", and never get a trophy. As long as they stayed below Expert, or was it class A? ; they could place in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd and take a trophy and/or RC Goodies home.

Vince
Hobe Sound, FL

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

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What can I say? We (my club) had over a dozen Kougars. If pushed into a high G maneuver while inverted (toward the belly), each and everyone of them snapped out, as we used to say. Your Washington air must be different than our NJ air. Come to think of it, I KNOW it is. <G>

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

"Designed for AMA and FAI Aerobatic Competition"

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

That doesn't mean it was WELL designed for them.:D

I can write anything I want on a kit box and still put a POS inside it.

Rick

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

Admittedly the Komet was not the greatest pattern model in the 70's but it was designed for pattern. The down fall is it was designed by a scale designer and not a pattern flier. Could it have been competitive? Sure in the right hands any plane is competitive. I am fairly sure in his day Hanno could have flown a trainer 60 and won.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

Well before the Komet Hester designed (and Sig kitted) a twin finned pattern model called the Stratus, had to be mid 60's I think. In his day Maxey was an excellent flier and won many a CL III pattern meet before concentrating on scale. His flight scores in scale were well above average & that really helped him win so many contests. In those days many modelers flew pattern, scale and racing events; often in the same weekend.

Obviously the Stratus isn't in the league of a Curare, but for its day it flew well. It would be best suited today for VRCS CL III or SPA antique, although I'm not the SPA even runs antique events anymore.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

Guys;

If you have never flown a Sig Komet please refrain from the negative comments. I currently have one without retracts, K&B 61, old 4 channel radio without any fancy stuff, fly it weekly and am impressed at how well it does. This plane sat half built in my friends shop since the late 70's, I got it from him 6 years ago and finished it last year without any hopes that it would fly well, after all it is one of those SIG kits. Was I ever shocked at how well it flew. It brought back memories of those great pattern days of the early 70's. I think it flys as good as any of the planes of it's era. I know it flys as well as, say a mach I or banshee. Really brought back some long forgotten memories.
I think it all boils down to just how straight and true a plane is built more than anything else! The newer members of our club who had never seen a 70's vintage pattern plane were amazed at the speed of the thing, and this was with a non schnurle K&B!
As to the SIG Kougar, if my memory is still good the first kits came out with the cg too far back and were snapping demons. Once SIG corrected the plans the planes flew quite well but I don't think they were ever considered pattern planes. I also have an original Andrews SportMaster with a Webra 60 that is covered in silk and dope and painted with acrylic lacquer ( Just a few cracks in the finish!) This plane was built in the late 60's and was considered sort of a pattern plane, kind of like a Beachcomber if you remember those. The plane flys just fine as long as you keep the engine mount screws tightened. Anyone who ever had a Webra will know what I mean. I am really glad to see the revival of interest in this type of plane, they all fly great and bring back something that is missing in the hobby today.




Larry

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

The Komet's rudder was too small for serious pattern competition. That was my only gripe about the design. Maxey must be from the reed days, when control surface sizes were kept small in order to smooth out their flights.

I didn't like the plastic fuselage top, but to each his own.

It is a good looking model.


Ed Cregger

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

hey renegade I think I can make you smile ...alot!a local resident asked me to sell of her late husbands rc collection.among the stuff are a bunch of engines and tuned pipes this guy loved speed.I just started sorting stuff this week so far I found a rossi 91 NIB a rossi 61 and a rossi 60 at least 2 of them. theres a few NIB webra 60 and 90.there are 2 pattern ships both with tuned pipes I can get a picture to you as I am not sure what model it is.looks but has all the horns and whistles like retracts.I just started sorting all this but if you want to know more feel free to write me..

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

Are you still looking for a OS VR .61? I have it. With header. $125 ships it. Need pictures? Email me. I have the box and correct VF carb on it too.

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

been a while since I have seen this thread.but earlier this afternoon on ebay a guy was auctioing off a tigertail ..was tempted but I have so many planes now I just need to concentrate on flying.although I have a kaos I am fiinshing.I guess pureist dont like them for competitive flying.but who cares nostolia is alive and well.while not pattern I also nabbed in ecellent shape a pica ymf waco..life is good.lol

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

listed now on RCU, first come first served. Do you think my rating can improve?

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

where is that OS listed? i can't find it. thx, david

RE: Hunting for old Pattern 60's
 

http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=346419