KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

This thread is to be a "sticky" for the wealth of information regarding the Kaos and other related planes. Please post information here including sources, building tips and the like. I can merge other threads into this one if the need arrises.

Enjoy,

EXCAP232

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Thank you, EXCAP232. I think this will prove a popular and useful thread.

Although not strickly a Kaos - unless you want to call the Kaos a Sun Fli Mk V - I'm finishing up a 36" 1/2A Sun Fli IV. So here's a pic. I can email plans.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Here's a look and a link to a 1/2a Kao-tic. It's still in the "refinement" stage, but I've mostly built the airframe. It should have an AUW of ~12-13oz and a good reed valve Cox will put out close to that in thrust.

http://www.ulmer-rc.com/files/kao-tic.zip

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Oh goody!

My modified, kit built Tower Kaos 40. 5 lbs. 3 oz. and powered with a Irvine 53 ABC engine with muffler baffle removed and spinning a Top Flite 10-7 power point prop at high RPM. The power of the 53 over powers the drag of the thick wing pulling it along smartly with unlimited vertical. The airframe is covered with MonoKote and the radio used is a Futaba 9C Super with a Futaba PCM receiver. I started out with an OS 46 FX but it wasn’t quite fast enough for me.

Early on I made the mistake of using the manufacturers recommended prop that was too big for my style of flying and after going to the 10 – 7 it really came alive. The 10 – 7 lets the engine unload in level flight and hold a high RPM on the extended vertical. I do not know how fast it is but it easily keeps up with the diamond dust deltas that fly at our field. I think the speed would be close to my Tiporare.

The Tower kits come up on ebay often but I have another kit stashed for backup.

My son took a few video clips but was so mesmerized by the impressive speed and performance missed the spins and slower maneuvers. The video quality could be better but it does give you a pretty good idea the kind of performance that is provided with the light airframe and substantial power.

The video includes:

1. Take off.
2. Right to left pass.
3. Left to right pass with a vertical pull up to unlimited vertical rolls. Luckily you can not hear all of my son’s comment about the vertical performance “holy s****!”
4. On the far right end of the field, vertical climb to a ½ roll and split S back down to line up for a right to left slow roll the length of the field.
5. Landing.

The video is at http://media.putfile.com/Kaos-40-Kit

I believe the whistling sound is cause by the wheels on the fixed gear hanging out in the high speed air stream. It is a lot of fun to fly but because of the combination of small size and high speed it takes some focused attention.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Man, 8178, you even make the basic, no frills (but noble) Kaos look fantastic! I may have to get the Super Kaos 40 plans from RCM and save up for one of new Webra .55s that just came out a while back. Or maybe a Jett .50. Actually, that would be wat too fast for my thumbs.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Thanks raindav! It is just a standard Tower Kaos 40 kit with a narrowed fuselage, a more rounded top and an enclosed nose on the front. My rule is, build them light and the more power the better. For my flying style, it is imposable to be too fast with a “classic” pattern aircraft. On my next one I’ll lower the engine thrust line a little for a better nose shape.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

In 1981, I placed 2nd in Sportsman at the Southwest Championships in Dallas, Texas with an "Utter" Chaos, which I believe Bridi produced for Hobby Lobby. It was a slightly longer tail moment than original Kaos fuse with a Curare wing. I had an OS Max .61 FSR and a pipe on it. Simple fixed tri-gear. I outflew Curares, Arrows, and Dirty Birdys with it. Legendary design, the Kaos.
Regards,
GPB

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Well, since this is an info thread and no one has posted this yet, here are places to get your Kaos from

Kits - Bluejay Models

http://www.bridiairplanes.com/


Plans - RCM plans

http://www.rcmmagazine.com

Go to the RCM Store, then Plans, and then search for "Kaos" and "Super Kaos"


You might want to get the plans soon, though, as RCM could vanish at any moment given their business situation...


Mark

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

I have redrawn the Sun Fli IV in Cad. The drawing is scaled to 36" for a Norvel w/throttle or a TD, but being cad it can be scaled back up to 60" in a second. The only change I made was to leave the sheeting off of the stab and build up the fin instead of using solid sheet. You can easily measure off the drawing to choose wood sizes. The airfoil might be a bit different, too. The original gets thinner at the tip, so I used an NACA 0018 at the root transitioning to an NACA 0014 at the tip. This looks very close to my eye. If you scale it up just use your discretion as far as structural elements such as wing center glassing, ply fuse/saddle doublers, etc.

Oh, just PM me your email address.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

I added more info to my post #4 above.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Excellent, another post about my favourate sports model. I have been flying the 46 sized Kaos since I bought a kit in 1979 or 80. Since then I have always had one and they have all been from the plans that can with the kit. When I crash one I work none stop until I have finished a new one(about two weeks). The last few have had the OS46LA for power which is about right for for good fun sport flying,good idle, and reliable(4Ibs 13oz). I had my first look at the ARF KAOS last year and noticed that it is larger and with a slightly thicker wing section. It seemed to fly just as well. Looks like an in between size of the original 40 and the 60 models. I have had a good copy of the 60 size plans for a few years now with the intention of building one for a OS61FX. But I am now thinking of trying the OS50 in it as I would again think that this would give me the nice light model with a good power to weight ratio with out being "over the top" with power. What do you guy's think. Matt

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Matt, those two engines are very close in the actual power output. I watched a friend swap out his OS .61FX for the .50SX and both engines flew his .60 size Spitfire very nicely. But, there was one big problem. The .50SX is about 20% lighter making the correct CG difficult to achieve. Starting from scratch, work on keeping the tail light!

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Thanks for the advice, starting from scratch I should be able to achieve the correct CofG with the placement of the radio. I went from an enya 45 to the OS LA in the 40 size models and by planning where the gear went in had not troubles with the light motor and the CofG. Matt

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

I believe the Tower Kaos 40 ARF is modeled after the old Tower Kaos 40 kit. The Tower Kaos kit has a wingspan of 55” and wing area of 566 sq in. They made it larger than the original Bridi kit stretching it into a small 60 size aircraft. The kits I have also include the plywood frame parts used to build an Ultra Sport so apparently the Ultra Sport was based on the Kaos.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Here a photo of a Super Kaos 60 I got from a fellow flyer in Sierra Vista, Az.
who didn’t like the way it flew. It turned out that the wing had a twist in it
from the covering job. I straighten the wing with a heat gun, added the Wings
MFG. canopy, installed a Super Tiger X-60 with Tiger pipe and ended up with
one great flying plane. Lots of well spent hours locking down the novice and
advance pattern with this plane. This kaos and I was dialed in and ready to kick
some butt. It was lost two days before the 80/81 Tucson Winter Nats to a dead
stick, high winds, high speed fly through of a Mesquite tree. I still have the
canopy and it will go on my next SK-60, which I’m working on now. I still
brought home the bacon (third place novice) from the Nats with my backup
plane, a modified Wings Love Machine. This is one great plane to learn the ropes
with. I’ll post some photos of the new SK-60 (and maybe SK-40) in a month or so.

Ron

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Ron, that Wing Mfg canopy gives the plane a whole new look which I really like. It looks like it probably adds more side area over the CG, too. Beautiful planes.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Rainedav,
That canopy does add a lot to it's looks but it needed retracts to complete
the look. But who needed retracts to fly the lower classes back in those days?
I can't remember this plane having any of the troubles that others talk about,
so may the canopy did help in those areas. The fellow I got the above kaos
from was a little P'd off when he saw how well it really flew and when I told
him about the wing twist correction. I offered it back to him a couple of times
but I think pride and building a Nosen 310 got in the way.
The one I'm working on now will have retracts and a better coving job. I
plan to use Goldberg retracts (just because I have a set) and maybe a piped
Enya 60X. It should be a good looking plane to watch in a low high speed
flyby with the gear up and that canopy.

Ron

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

With retracts it would look very much like the Dirty Birdy!

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Greetings,
I have a fellow pilot looking for the plans to a Sterling Lancer 0.60 size.
Sterling lost all files in the fire just before the sale to Estes.
Anyone have a set we can get a copy from.
Best regards,
EXCAP232

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Chaps,
For those wondering about modern vs `old' engines I have a Super Kaos .60 with an original but new (unused) Lee special .60 (K&B/Veco) of early `70's vintage up front and to achieve balance the battery pack (JR 1100 mAh) is back about the middle of the wing, with the rest of the radio gear behind it. Keeping the tail light is not the problem with fitting `new' motors in these older designs, picking a light enough engine will be the problem. The OS LA series is one solution but I don't think that they will require any special building techniques in order to achieve balance. Of course you can fit an original engine, but those old mufflers are pretty noisy compared with the modern ones, and if you overheat or dingle the thing getting spares can be a problem. Sure sounds good when it winds up coming out of a reversal though.
Evan.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Just picked up a super kaos .40 with Como 51 and tuned pipe as my second plane. It looks great, can't wait to get her up in the air... 1 small problem: No plans! I need to know what is a good CG location to start with???

Thanks
-BeeFCaKe

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

RCM plan for Super Kaos JR. shows the balance point 4" back from the leading edge at the wing root.

Ray

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

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Just about any modern .50 - .53 will consistently turn the requisite 11x7 prop as fast, or faster, than even the Lee Custom K&B .61 PDP engine, which is nearly impossible to find these days. It will also weigh about the same weight.

Frankly, the K&B .61 (new or used) or the HB .61, plain or PDP, new or used, is the perfect choice for these planes, unless you are out for "stupid power".

When running a Fox .60 Eagle (baffled piston) on my Kaos 60 (original open front), I never had to worry about being nose heavy or tail heavy. It serentipitously balanced right on the mark.

I'm not argueing with anyone. We're just shooting the bull here. <G>

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Buying a Tower Hobbies Kaos ARF. 2 questions:
1. What's the biggest engine I can put on it without messing up the balance? I was looking at the following:

Super Tigre 51
Displacement: 0.51 cu in (8.3 cc)
Bore: 0.905 in (23 mm)
Stroke: 0.787 in (20 mm)
Output: 1.48 hp @ 15,500 rpm
RPM Range: 2,500-15,500
Weight w/o muffler: 12.7 oz (363 g)
Weight with muffler: 18.4 oz (522 g)
Includes: muffler; glow plug
Recommended Props: 9.5x6, 10x6

Super Tigre 61
Displacement: 0.61 cu in (9.95 cc)
Bore: 0.945 in (24.0 mm)
Stroke: 0.866 in (22.0 mm)
RPM Range: 2,500-16,500 rpm
Output: 1.75 hp @ 16,000 rpm/1.85 hp @ 16,500 rpm
Weight w/o muffler: 20.0 oz (567 g)
Weight with muffler: 26.8 oz (759 g)
Includes: muffler; glow plug
Recommended Props: 11x7, 11x7.5

As you can see the 61 is considerably heavier.

Question 2: Will standard servos work for this bird. 6.0V at 52 oz. torque?

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

jigeye, Go with the 51 and any standard servo. 4.8 volt should do you.
You can go with a 11-6 prop with the 51 as well. I think you will be happy
with that equipment setup. The man to ask is 8178 as he had/has a few
of the Tower ARF Kaos. You can do a search for his thread on this Kaos.

Ron

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Thanks RFJ. I am having a minor problem getting servos mounted without the aileron servo / pushrods binding against the elevator/rudder pushrods... ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!

-CaKe

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

CaKe,

That was a big problem in some of the older designs. You had three fuselage mounted servos and pushrods, an aileron servo and pushrods, two aileron horns and a wing bolt plate all wanting to occupy the same space! The best solution now is to use two small, powerful aileron servos inset about 1/3 out along each panel. These little beauties were just not available back then and, carefully installed, are hardly noticeable.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

RFJ, you are a wealth of information.

In all seriousness, I will re-think ever buying someone elses model again, or at least re-think doing that over the internet... The vertical tail was cracked (maybe due to shipping), so I peeled some covering off and CA'd it... No problem, but it was still really flimsy... The previous guy had NO WOOD TO WOOD JOINTS aft of the Horizonatal Stab... This meant the last half of the vertical stab was FLOATING... Man, I would never build that way... There was a couple of holes in the wing covering... Now trying to re-engineer the control system. What a PITA!

I really do enjoy building models, but I don't like fixing other peoples mistakes... And I have yet to ARF it...

-CaKe

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

I have a KAOS 40 ARF with an old OS .46SF. I had a .60 kit version a few years ago and was going to build another one until I got the Tower ARF for $65. This is the updated red one and has to be one of the best flying planes around. I get a lot of pilots complimenting it but nobody really cares to own one, that is until they fly one.

I also have an US40 which is a little more sluggish then the KAOS, but both are fun to fly. Very predictable and we are not kidding when we say it will fly where you aim it.

I need to get building on another one since my current KAOS is nearing 5 years old and I fly it the most. Its expiration date is bound to come up soon.:D

Scott

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Guys,

I'm finishing up a tower kaos arf and I'm placing a TT 42 GP on it ... do you think it will have enough power? If not, I believe I'll put a performance pipe on it. I don't necessarily want it to scream, just have respectable speed.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

You should be fine with a .42. I've ran mine with a .40SF and didn't really notice much difference between it and the .46 when I ran a smaler prop. the .46 gives me a little more authority.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Thank you ScottRC ... I've had the KAOS on the shelf for a year half built. Last week I guy was flying one at the club, I decided to finish it!

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Stupid RCM plans! The leading edge of the rib templates is flat and the two dimensional views show a 3/8 square as the leading edge meaning a notched front edge for the ribs.

The only clue in the write-up is, "Glue the notched leading edge to the ribs."

Not that I can't muddle my way through this but wouldn't you think that while drawing the plans the guy would have looked from one side of the paper to the other. Then again if there were revisions to the plan wouldn't a reasonable person look for consistency with the remainder of the plan.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Perhaps the 3/8" square stock is notched to lock in the ribs? Granted, not the way most of us would do it.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Stripes, I have personally never seen a Bridi design with a square LE set at a 45 degrees angle (but there might be one).

All of the Bridi designs I've built - including the Kaos - use a laminated LE with a "false" or "sub" leading edge.

This was his standard method of wing construction and he used it from the Kaos up through the UFO, after which time he went to foam core wings.

Here is a drawing of how Bridi's wings are almost always built:

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

I remember the spars, LE, amd TE being notched. Below is a scan of the Super Kaos plans clearly showing a 45 degree LE. Be aware that this is NOT a cross-section thru a rib but rather a section thru the wing at the fuse side, thus no reason to show the hidden notch and flat face on the rib itself. Kapesh?

Late addition..reading the construction article it does mention gluing on the notched spars, LE, and notched TE.

WiNG:
The RCM \~ing Jig is highly recommended to assemble the wing. (See the August 1967 issue of R/C Modeler Magazine Xerox copies of article available.) Using 1/4” steel rods in the holes in the ribs, this jig can give you a true wing in much less time and work than usual construction methods. If you do not use the RCM Wing Jig, use a flat building board and make up small jig blocks. Pin the blocks to the position shown on the plans. Glue the ribs to the spar with the landing gear notch in ribs No. 2 and No. 3 down. Do not glue in the false ribs or the 1/4” dowel. Glue the top spar into position. Glue the notched trailing edge to the ribs and pin to the jig blocks. Glue the notched leading edge to the ribs, let the glue dry before proceeding, then glue the front and rear sheeting in place (the leading edge of the front sheeting is tapered). It is recommended that the forward sheeting be dampened with water Ofl the outside surface only. This will cause the sheeting to curl and conform to the rib

Hope this helps.

Dave Rigotti

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Rainedave:
Had to go up in the attic and pull open some plans and kits. The RCM plans for the Kaos, the RCM Trainer, the Super Kaos and the Dirty Birdy show the leading edge as 3/8sq or 1/2 sq set in notches in the ribs at a 45 degree angle. I have a dirty Birdy kit that I will check put I would think that it would match the RCM plans.
Hope this clears up a little.

If you want to see a leading edge that is a little strange the Tiger Tail / Sweetater series from Ron Chidgey and Southern R/C kits just sheet around the leading edge with 1/16 balsa. No solid edge or any reinforcement at all.

BCNU


Mark O :D:D:D

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

Ok, the Kaos plans I built from were not the RCM plans and are obviously different.

Here are the Sun Fli IV, Dirty Birdy and UFO LE methods. These are from the RCM plans.

It's interesting that he would switch from the vertical sheet LE on the Sun Fli to the 45 degree square LE for the Super Kaos, and then switch back to the vertical sheet LE for the two later designs.

The laminated LE using the sub LE as a shelf for the sheeting is a method I use and now I don't know where I picked it up. At any rate, I feel it's a superior method that results in a neater and stronger LE. It also makes getting a completely gapless seam where the sheeting meets the LE totally foolproof.

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

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Beautiful job, Dave.

The original Bridi Kaos 40 had a 52 or 52.5" wingspan. Is yours larger?

Quite often when someone modifies a proven design, it is usually detrimental. I don't know about the GP Kaos, but GP's folks actually improved the original Bridi designed/made RCM Trainer 40 and 60. I'm hoping they followed through on the GP Kaos 40. Betcha they did.

I found my 52" wingspan original Bridi Super Kaos 40 in the early Eighties. It was powered by a K&B .40 and then later a Super Tigre S.40K. Believe it or not, the K&B .40 powered version was much faster.

I always had the feeling that this model was just a bit too small and that a slightly larger version would fly much better. Keep in mind that my R/C system in those days was a robust Kraft Series 79 set up. I did eventually lose the KPS-14 servos and replaced them with Ace Bantam Midget servos (much lighter and smaller). This did make a noticable difference in performance.

Powered by the K&B .40 with a 9x6 wooden prop (no APC props then), the model was fast, but not quite as fast as the one in the video I just watched in this thread. Back then, speed was good. It let you store energy for maneuvers that did not knife-edge well at all. You could then fly through those maneuvers much like a bullet (hence, ballistic pattern).


Ed Cregger

RE: KAOS AND RELATED PLANES AND INFO
 

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That's why I won't mount an aileron servo inside of the fuselage ever again. Enough is enough. The nostalgia freaks are just going to have to overlook that in my models of the Kaos or the Dirty Birdy.


Ed Cregger