RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

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Someone just graciously sold me their NIB Peppermint Pattie kit a few minutes ago.

Thanks for the kind offer. Much appreciated, and thanks to the other gentleman that also offered to cut me a kit too.

IIRC, the last PP I saw sell NIB on eBay was up to $110 plus shipping when I quit following it. Too rich for my blood, as much as I love that little plane.

The big surprise to me was when I replaced the ST G20/15 (needed for another project) with what I thought was going to be a less powerful engine by far, the HB .15 (single ball bearing). As it turned out, the HB .15 was lighter than the G15 and produced a thousand more rpm. I will admit that my G15 never turned up as well as my friend's (bought at the same place and time). It ran great, but cook it did not. The HB .15 turned out to be a screamer.

An excellent friend of mine, Syd Clement, used to campaign a Bridi UFO with a piped Rossi .60. Syd really knew how to make those Rossi engines howl. PP with the HB .15 flew very similar to Syd's UFO with the howling Rossi. I never did get a chance to fly PP alongside of his UFO. Since I had no problem passing the other ballistic pattern ships with PP in level flight, it might have been a pretty close race. Hi, Syd, if you're reading this! <G>

I can't imagine how fast PP would be with a really fast powerplant up front, such as the Cox .15, Fox .15, MVVS .15 or the .21 engines others have mentioned. I think I may just make myself be happy with an Enya SS.15 or a Thunder Tiger .15 GP. I'm going to have to have a spotter with me for at least the first few flights, until I know I can keep it in sight. My distance vision has improved considerably (typical old man stuff), but I'm not sure I want to rely upon a "shoulda" first thing.


Ed Cregger

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Today a friend gave me a Cox .15. It's not a Conquest, but a throttled Medallion. I will run it tomorrow and tach it. If I feel like it's strong enough I might build a PP around it. At least it will be loud. But with today's mini servos and rx's it will be easy enough to build one very light. I've generated a set of rib patterns for a built-up wing that could be lighter than the foam cores, too.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

I had a chance to tach the Cox .15. I knew beforehand that Medallions have no where near the power of a TD or Conquest. Still, it's a good running little engine and would definitely fly a 2lb plane. I got close to 12,500 with an APC 8x4 on 10% fuel and just over 15,000 with an APC 7x4 and 25% fuel. The throttle actually works well. It's more of a wide open/idle type control without much midrange, but it doesn't stutter or hesitate. I don't remember what my FP .15 does, but I'm sure the FP is stronger, and a lot more quiet. The Medallion is very loud.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

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I used to fly a Cox Medallion .15 (unthrottled) on control line models. This was back before electric starters were around. It was one of the hardest hand starting engines I have ever owned. All of my usual tricks did nothing to get this engine to start. With today's electric starters, it will be a piece of cake, I'm sure.

I expected it to be a howler, but it wasn't. It was even with the other sport .15 engines (Fox .15X, OK Cub .14, OS and Enya .15s), so it was not a disappointment that way. Some fellows had worked out how to get it going quickly, but I never got a chance to pick their brains. I still have the unthrottled Medallion .15 in my collection. I bet you'll like yours.

It just occurred to me that I have a brand new Enya Ultra11CX ABC. If this one runs anywhere near as fast as the old AAC version, I'm sure it would make PP really honk.

If all else fails, I still have the original ST G20/15 that powered my original PP on its maiden flights. While I wouldn't call it a powerhouse, it was no slug either. I just expected more from a pylon oriented engine. Looking back on it, I probably should have shimmed the head and upped the nitro. The original G15 was set up to burn FAI fuel. Maybe that was the problem?


Ed Cregger

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Thanks, Ed. What the Medallion has going for it is its weight of 4.5ozs. That's about two ounces lighter than current r/c .15s. Once I got the NV set it starts with a bump of the electric starter. Finding the right NV setting to get it started took some fiddling at first, but it's easy to start now.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

I have emerged from the dungeon, and boy, did I find out stuff!

Here's the whole, complete evolution of all the Peppermint Patties:

Niris: I have a print of the original plan w/ some notes - no date on the plans. It was published, however, in Model Aviation October 1975.

Niris II: a copy of the original plans, with notes for versions III, IV, V, and VI. Changes noted were engine mount, Aileron placement and shape, rudder cross-section, and the like. Funny thing, I don't remember building all these versions. Unfortunately, no dates are on the plans.

Major fuselage changes generated the Peppermint Pattie .60 - I have the original plans, with a note that they were modified in 11/79. Then I found the Peppermint Pattie II ! This is what Master Kit produced, but that was after it was sold from CT to the Midwest somewhere. It was dated 12/81. Notes on the plan state the nose was lengthened 1" for a 16 oz tank, the tail 2" for lateral area, bottom of fuse was made parallel to thrust line for increased side area (read smoother knife edges) Main gear changed to make retract and fixed gear placement the same, gear lengthened 1/2" for ground clearance, and lastly, the fuse doubler was extended beyond the wing TE to disperse forces. (must have been a crash breakage point?) The .60 Pattie was marketed as "the pattern ship of the '80's"

Now let's back up to the .15 Pattie: Published in March 1978 R/C Sportsman, I have early photos of my first one, which differ from the Masterkit version. I have a photo of me hand launching it at Rocky Hill. Sadly, I could not find my original plans. I think I gave them to M/K to reproduce, they might have had the same sort of notes I put on the other plans as I evolved each design.

Pattie .40: I have the original plans, dated 7/79. Sadly, I only built one of them, and didn't like the way it flew. It needed stab anhedral to prevent a pitch problem in knife edge, I remember clearly having to cut the stab and make the modification. After one season, I sold it at the WRAMS show. I remember doing it after Rhett Miller won the Nats with a .40 Contendor(?)

So that's the complete history that I can document. I will findo out what it costs to reproduce plans and keep you posted.

By the way, my current .15 Pattie is done like Ed Kasmirski's Taurus, MAN Jan '63 cover. And yes, I had one of those, too.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

I'm really glad I started this thread. Thanks for the great info. I'd love to see a photo of the sixty version. It sounds like Ballistic Pattern Association material. Please do keep us posted on the plans. I'm off to the AMA online archives to check out the Niris...

David

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Yea I also know what You Guy's are talking about.
That nice Lady that's in My house in the morning
and at night when I come home remind's Me all
the time about it.
She say's Im' getting it more and more.
She call's it G.F.O.
It stand's for Getting F ing Old!!!
OK so which way to the Hanger?

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

I think the Niris would be a great BPA ship. The plans say 70" span which would make it ideal for a Jett .90! Nic, I hope you don't mind me posting photos I got from the MA archives.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

rainedave,

Man O Man, that Horizontal stab and vertical stab are shouting "Banshee" at me (Jim Martin design)

Yeaaaaaaah Baby ! ! ! ! ! You strap a Jett 90L on the nose of that puppy and you've got true Ballistic Speed for out of site vertifcal!

I'm guessing after reading Nic's post that the .60 Pattie had more area toward the back of the fuse based on reports of the "horizon to horizon" knife edge that Nic was famous for! ;)

This one definitely deserves a spot, in the building line up!

Yo Nic! ! ! Ya gotta get the get those plans available!

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

I don't mind at all. Right after her trim flights, I actually cut 2" off each wingtip, because the A/R was a bit much for rolling maneuvers.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Hi Bob,
You said, "
I seem to recall Nick also built a 60 size version - Id really have to dig in to the shoeboxes ..."
Lemme gues, It was called Nirjis? Is that right Nic?

Dean Pappas

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

I love the lines of the Peppermint Pattie and its larger brethren. To me, they represent the ultimate in ballistic pattern models, right along side the Banshee.

If new plans are offered, I hope an all wood wing is illustrated with rib patterns.


Ed Cregger

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Ed, if not I can generate rib patterns from foam core root and tip templates. I have a program that transitions the airfoil from root to tip for as many ribs a s you want in the panel.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

rainedave ,
what program is that?I have profli2 and every time I try to import a scan of an airfoil I get spikes in places for some reason and then have to manually smooth it out before generating the rib set.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

aerowoof, I have a three step process that I've settled on after trying several different methods.

1. I import a jpg of the template into my CAD program and carefully trace the airfoil. A point about every 5% is good with a few more around the LE.

2. A friend wrote a macro for me that exports the CAD drawing into a .dat file. The .dat file is simply a text file with a list of all the coordinates.

3. Profili2.2 will import this .dat file and generate the airfoil.

It's faster than it sounds and I've been getting very good results. With symmetrical airfoils I only trace the top and then mirror the spline to make the bottom half. Splines are not the best way to draw curves, but the macro was written to work with them.

Once the airfoils are in Profili I simply enter the LE and TE widths, size and placement of the spars and sheeting thickness. I found a free program on the web that allows you to print to .pdf files; it's called CutePDF Writer. Since Profili arranges the rib patterns to fit on 8 1/2 x 11 sheets the .pdf files are perfect for saving and printing from.

Here's an image of one of the .pdf files:

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Very good. Thanks. We may have to get together on this. I would love to be able to build many Peppermint Patties in the future, not just the one kit that I have now. In fact, I may preserve the original and just go straight to the built up wings so I can keep the original intact.


Ed Cregger

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Nick, there is something I wanted to say, while I'm thinking about it.

Had you introduced the Peppermint Pattie .15 today as an electric, you would have gone down in history as creating a "classic" model. You were a bit ahead of your time in the late Seventies/early Eighties. Radio gear small enough to fit in PP was a real problem back then. Today - piece of cake.

As far as I'm concerned, PP IS a classic.

The PP is the only model that I have ever flown that would do an easily repeatable, tumbling end over end, Lomcevak. And it did it at sufficient speed to make an awesome whooshing noise that would make the troops that weren't paying attention run for their cars, time after time after time. I was called many an expletive for doing Lomcevaks when folks weren't paying attention. That'll teach'em. <G>


Ed Cregger

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Gee, golly, *blush* a classic? Thanks.

Dean, nice of you to check in. I've thought about giving Bob Hunt a shout every now & then.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

OK, I double-checked - my current Pattie has a Magnum XL .15 in it, swinging a 7x5 APS. That's good enough for almost unlimited verticals. I think a .20 or .25 would be way overkill, not to mention tail weight.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Here is a picture of Nic and his Peppermint Pattie.
From the construction article in RC Sportsman, March 1978.
(Just a short 30 years ago.)
Dave

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

I still have that issue. I should get a photo of me now. Maybe this w/e?

Update on plans: It looks like mailing tube & postage will run about $8-10, I have 6 sheets & will get a quote from Staples this week. The plans I have are:

Niris
NirisII
Pattie
Pattie II (needs original pattie plans for wing & stab)
Pattie .15
Pattie .40

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

Hi all,
I am trying to draw the pp in cad fron a pdf file of the kit plans.While drawing the side veiw I noticed a dowel pin in the top sheeting as well as a cut line thruogh the top sheeting just before the trailing edge of the wing as if for a hatch but found no reference in the building notes about a top hatch.I know there is a bottom hatch but to those that have built this kit was there a top hatch?if not what is the purpose of that dowel pin and the cut as I could not find a corresponding top cut for the other end of a hatch.

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

here is the cad alone but with 1 layer missing that shows the 1/32 ply doubler

RE: Peppermint Pattie
 

????????

I see no dowel pin on the top sheeting. If you are talking about the cut line above F3, that is simply a butt joint because MK did not make the top sheet one long piece, it was a rectangular piece mated to a tapered one. There is no top hatch.

As I look at the plans, MK also changed the belly hatch. On mine, H3 and H4 had a 30 degree slope down to the rear from the TE, which makes it easier to fit vs the squared off hatch in the plans.

Oh, I wish I could find my original.