RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Good comments . I think I'm starting to understand the core difference in motivations in SPA and BPA.
What I think I see is that SPA is more about the competition and the guys are more serious about placement, points accumulaton etc. Thats completely understandable, and if that s the case, you cant really introduce different models etc into that environment without going through official rules changes etc, any more than an IMAC contest could decide to let F3A airplanes compete against scale aerobatic models.

BPA, seems to be guys more motivated like myself. Its about the airplanes and recreating the days of go fast ballistic pattern of the 70's and early 80's, up till pattern changed to turnaround style. A competition environment is wanted, but because its fun. Formalized points systems or even contest placement is not as big a deal.

Does that sound somewhat accurate? If so, I think I have a handle on it. Though SPA and BPA are similar in the core of the activity, there are enough key differences that the two arent trying to accomplish the same thing.

Not a bad thing, nor is anyone right or wrong. It's just two distinct groups of people with different desires.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Mike, that is my conclusion to the letter.

No big deal, either way. There will be opportunities to fly BPA style here and there. And when I am able, I will be there. That's all there is to it.

-Mike

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

I agree. IMO, there are two distinct classes of SPA flyers. I will call them A & B. The A Group are the guy's that want to compete for SPA points and regional or national champion/recognition. This group will attend and compete for SPA points, probably making every contest within a day's drive, or no matter what the distance.

The B Group could be the guys that competed long ago, still have some pattern skills, and will get in a SPA contest, if it comes to a convenient driving distance from their home. The B Group may get that Kwik-Fli or whatever out of the attic, dust it off, do some practice, show up to compete. The main difference is that this group may only go to one contest a year, maybe two.

At the Apopka contest that Crashlander put on, there were a lot of RC guy's there, not competing, but asking a lot of questions, and some saying that they used to do this back in the 70's.
Jason Shulman and his buddies were there, flying BPA and SPA planes. Mike McConville has showed genuine interest in these classic pattern planes. To get this caliber of RC flyer at a SPA/BPA contest, imagine what it does for the credibility of the the old pattern planes, and bringing new blood into the sport.

We are going to have to reach out for new members, as some of us in our 60's and 70's, are we going to devote 10 or 20 more years to SPA ?

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Mike-
I think you have a good grasp of the situation as it now exists. SPA has seen a tremendous amount of growth, and in general a whole lot of activity increase in just the past couple years. I think the message is finally getting out that regardless of whether a pipe and retracts are used or not, the vintage era pattern competition experience is NOT about a bunch of dusty old relics being flown only by "old pharts";) trying to recapture the "glory days".

The concept of competition with model planes will always be there, and these early pattern planes--all of them--were bred to fly beautifully--better than most sport ARFs available today. We have had many younger pilots show a lot of interest in addition the the older generation who actually remember these planes when they were state of the art. To the teens and 20s crowd, these are actually NEW DESIGNS, but what I think draws them is the competition with planes that don't cost much more , (if any) than the planes they fly at their local field. Now everybody can get involved while standing before the judges and showing off their "stuff"--that idea will never get old-fashioned, or be limited to a certain generation.

Yes there are some difference in the STYLE of flying between SPA and BPA-type planes, and folks may be attracted to one kind or the other for different reasons. On the other hand, both groups like the non-turnaround style of pattern, and both are able to bring back that kind of competition. The expression "Rome wasn't built in a day..." applies here. Just because there are some basic differences now doesn't mean that we are really all that different --at heart. I think the Florida plan for allowing BOTH SPA and BPA vintage aircraft to compete at the same venue is a great start toward building bridges and mutual respect between the organizations. Like I said earlier, I'm sure things will evolve over time--the important thing now is to promote vintage, non-turnaround pattern get-togethers, and major on the simlarities, not the differences. If we do that, we will grow closer together, not further apart over time.

In response to "Crankpins" "type A and type B" modelers, he DID leave out the primary reason so many of us travel quite a bit, and show up at most of the contests on "the circuit"---it's because we have such a good time, and enjoy each other's company. The competition, the little wooden plaques, and the points do matter, but they are nothing compared to the fun we have--they are like "frosting on the cake". Last season, I was "planeless" for a couple contests, but I still drove a long way on more than one occasion just to be there, help out and judge---why would I want to sit home? I wasn't going to let something as little as not having a plane get in the way of the comaradie.

Those two articles in Model Aviation I wrote about SPA were inspired by my tremendous experience flying with these guys, and my desire to tell others about it. I love vintage pattern flying, (all kinds). It's where I belong in R/C. I hope more people "catch the fever" and come on out and see for themselves.

Duane

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Well said King Altair. Yes, I did leave out the fun and comradarie at the event. At my first SPA contest, novice, altho I only got 4 rounds in that day, I did have a good time, very relaxed, and nice to be with a group of guys with the same interest's as mine.

Seeing the articles you wrote in MA, that was one area that inspired me to come on board.

Vince

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Team:
For those oy you who remember:
The sound of a piped 61 taching 14.5K + with a 11x7.75 prop, an extremely sleek airplane with retracts flying at eye level doing 100 mph.....bring it on mama.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Thats what I'm talkin about!!

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Any long time pattern flyer old enough for an AARP card should remember that sweet song. Digging out my Rev-Up 11-7&3/4's tonight.

Peace

Mark O

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

I already have 6. Getting set up for MK Arrow with ST X-61 RE and a short pipe. Test flight in a couple of weeks.

I am looking for 2 ea "Kraft-Hayes" 2" wheels, either treaded or plain.
Anyone have some they want to get rid of?

Crashlander

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Exactly. Nothing better.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Mike

I have not read the entire thread. Please do not confuse this issue. Your prestige and position can cause controversy before these guys have even tried one contest. Just allow them to play by the rules they agreed to in the chapter application. If you want to fly pipes and retracts, fly BPA. Both pattern styles are a huge amount of fun. We just don't use pipes or retracts. It keeps things real simple and really cheap.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Hi all,

First I would like to thank Mike McConville for the Desire 60. He built one for me back in the early 90's and it was a super good airplane and I never got to thank him. So Mike 20 years belated... thank you.

With regards to the SPA/BPA discussion I'm a firm believer that with all organization seeking growth it is better to be inclusive as opposed to exclusive. I belive that the two can coexist as contest with in contest. What I mean by that is SPA fliers compete against SPA and BPA against BPA. Fying thier own given patterns. A side benifit would be BPA could judge for SPA and SPA could judge for BPA.

Sailplanes would be an example of this. They have Unlimited, Two Meter and RES all competing at the same time with in the same contest.

We should be striving to unite forces and bring back to fore front the flying style and airplanes that I and this group love.

Thanks for listening to my $.02

Mike Roseberry

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

What about this? As Crashlander did at Apopka, have combined SPA/BPA events. A participant can bring a BPA plane and a SPA plane or two. He would have a busy two day's of flying.

Vince

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

If I recall correctly at the first BPA contest in Huntsville there were several SPA guys with SPA planes in attendence. Even took some hardware I believe. What if the BPA adopted this "My Way or the Highway" attitude that seems to be brewing lately. How would the SPA feel?

NSRCA has a district points system every year. If you win a contest and are not a member the points go to the highest placing member. This would work although the currect thinking on 4 strokes and modified planes seems to indicate the the BPA dudes don't stand a chance, or do they?

If the cost is really to main reason think about this, OS91 FS is about $320.00 delivered but OS 55ax with pipe and retracts is $335.00 all from TH for comparison. True you need a retract servo but it aint the end of the world.

Why doesn't the SPA welcome the new members with BPA styles and encourage them to build both, they do welcome the $20.00 from all the new guys.


Peace

Mark O

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Man some of you guys just can't stand rules. Thats like 1/4 midget asked to share with champ and IRL indy cars. SPA can be a $99 Tower Kaos, $80 .46 engine and a $119 radio set and your ready..........This is all new. I can buy good used .61's all day long on fleabay for about $50 and up..............

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

I don't think cost is an issue for anyone who wants to fly in contests.

tommy s

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Steve,
Like I said above, I wasnt trying to ruffle any feathers. I simply saw a contest happening in the Midwest and thought it would be an opportunity to go fly my Phoenix in an event. Something I'd love to do. I heard that there had been a contest run sucessfully in FL that combined SPA and BPA and suggested they try that so I could fly my Phoenix and not have to leave the gear down since it will have retracts in it, and I could get some guys from this area who have been itching to do this stuff too to come to the contest. I felt (and still do) that it would gurantee more attendance at the event, and I'm all about making RC events sucessful.
Nothing more than that. But, I was ignorant to the details and politics of the vintage pattern events and understand better now. (See earlier posts)

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Marko and Nic (WEDJ), any chance our SPA events in this area will be combined events? I will have a plane ready for all the fun!

MM, what are the chances we will see an SPA- or BPA-legal ARF from Horizon a la the WM Intruder? Maybe an Atlas/Arrow, Curare, Mach 1, Phoenix, or Deception ;) ?

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

...or a Desire 60.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

I'd be game for that. We'll discuss at the WRAMS show, I'm sure.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

MadMan - I have a boatload of Top Flite 11 X 7-3/4 Super M props. I knew I was keeping them for something.

Vince

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

I thought Desire but typed Deception. Thanks for the correction!

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Crankpin:

I almost used a couple Rev-Up's for stirring varnish a few years back. Glad I went to the hardware store instead. I would also be up to a mixed contest in New England. Meeting should make WRAMs exciting. Its been getting kinda dull the last few years.

Peace

Mark O

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

IMO the Desire is too new. It is a 1990 design and was a pure turnaround style airplane.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

but it looks sooo hot.