RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Mike:

Just a question about ARFs. How many does there need to be in a run. Do they measure in tens, hundreds or thousands. I could see many designs such as Mach 1, Tiger Tail, Deception or Bootlegger selling maybe several hundred but not like your P-51s or main stream models.

Just curious about how likely ARF pattern ships could be marketed on a world wide scale.

Thanks

Mark O

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

millions :)


It comes down to a business decision. Weighing the ROI it offers vs. spending the development and marketing dollars on something different. There are other factors too and its not always abou tthe biggest short term profit a model offers though.
Hows that for a complete non-answer?

Need to sell more than tens to make it worth doing. Cant discuss much farther than that.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

And thanks for the kind words on the Desire. I always felt good about that design.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

I understand that answer pretty completely. We have the same kind of things in the laser industry. I guess it is all about the margin.

Still have good memories of your Desire design. Dave Elsner from Mass flew a couple back in the early 90's and we always were bashing heads at the local contests. I was going through some old mags at my dad's house this week and I found the FM with the original Desire article in it. At that time the guys I flew with in Southern CT were flying 60 size Boxers and Cursors.

Peace

Mark O

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Mark;
In an earlier post, I tried my best to present the reason for why things are the way they are within SPA. Putting it as "my way or the highway" really is a misrepresentation of what we are--I'm sorry you characterize us that way. We have long-standing rules we operate under. We invite everyone to come out and fly with us--is it too much to ask that people who come out adhere to the rules in place that the rest of us in SPA agree to? We are not excluding anyone--we hope former pattern pilots will come out and give us a try, but if they can't do that without the condition we modify our rules, then they choose to stay away. They can fly their planes, (if SPA-legal in the upper classes), with the retracts down--all they have to do is use a conventional muffler. We have an increasing number of SPA pilots who come out with 2-strokes at most of the contests where noise is not a factor--they are competitive, and they have a good time. Like I said, the Florida system allows both plane types to fly--maybe Indiana will run a similar contest--it is up to them.

I understand why people want to fly their planes exactly as they want without restrictions--but our rules don't allow that if they are going to be on the SPA side of competition, (standings and national points). I'm sorry if that sounds narrow to some, but these rules have been in effect since the formation of SPA--we're not about to change them because of negative comments from non-members. We gladly "accept $20 from all the new guys..." who agree with our rules and want to fly with us. For those who don't want to join SPA, I'm glad that BPA is now available. As I said earlier, I hope there will be an increasing number of combined contests run in such a way that the placement standings will not violate SPA rules.

MM---Just for fun, come on out and give it a try anyway, we'd love to have you, and I think you'll have a blast. A pilot like you would be competitive regardless of muffler, or pipe.

Duane

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Mike you can fly your plane legal in novice with retracts up. Hey maybe we should have an ..............expert novice class............

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Now that might upset a few guys.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Hy guys:


Just a comment about pattern plane contest, I wish we had 1/3 of the problems you have up there to organize one contest, down in México FAI pattern fly is dead, everybody wants to fly 3D in fact they do [:'(].

Some months ago during the CAJ club aniversary, someone organized a IMAC so called México Nationals, all sort of planes compited even a 3 D pane called MAGIC [:o] , but at the end of all was fun, Mike Mc Conville was one of the judges, sure he was thinking " they must be joking".

I tried to organize pattern contest in México for the last 14 months with no response, they all come up with some comments like " those planes are expensive" imagine tuned pipes, retracts etc IMHO you can make a plane as cheap or expensive as you want, I have build pattern planes with less than 30 dlls (just foam & plywood plus Elmers glue and some vinil to cover) as I said guys I'd love to have some of your problems.

Hope one of this days all of you would come down to México to fly a pattern contest, even if we / you call it a south the border pattern contest, I 'd be happy to help you organize it, what about a Mexican caribbean Beach to have it?

Regards 2 all U.

Rafa

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Rafa,
I thought the event was a great start. I had a lot of fun and could see a lot of potential for organized IMAC or some type of aerobatics in Mexico.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Duane:

I didn't mean to upset the world and I do believe that the SPA is in a growth mode. We up here in the northeast are awaiting our first contest (NJ) after last falls bad weather cancellation. But I would figure that if a person was to show up at a contest or if a contest was offering to let guys who might have an existing BPA type plane fly they might enjoy the SPA experience and become an SPA member. I do also have a World Models A6 Intruder with 91 FS and basically am tickled with the way it flys. Also have one of Vic Koenig's Dirty Birdys and it's also really cool. When I finish the Tiger Tail I am working on it will be an original with 61 2 stroke (Webra 61BH) but I can also see the merits of extending the fuse for balance purposes. I am also a member of SPA and the Northeast chapter and truly do want to see the SPA flourish and continue to grow. I do have a question for you. Would you want to go to a novice contest and fly against Mike McConville? We would all have the cleanest clocks in town. The only SPA class he can legally fly is SPA novice now. I do believe in the rules but how about a 1 or 2 contest grace period and then it's rules time. You could also say that no positions count towards points until the person has an SPA compliant plane. I would think that after a few of these type contests a 500 member SPA would be possible.

Peace


Mark O
SPA 337

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

OK--glad to see you are a member and already have an Intruder, (very popular in SPA circles, and a great way to jump in and get involved). I must apologize for my assumption that you were a non-member with lots of ideas on how we should make things better before you would consider joining. You are the exception--usually this is not the case. I truly believe most skeptics, or folks that can't totally "buy-in" to the SPA rules should at least give us a chance and come to one event to see things for themselves--first-hand. Besides a Northeast meet, Knoxville would be a great contest to attend to get the feel for an established, well-run contest.

Actually even if MM had an SPA-legal plane, the current rules state he would need to join the organization before competing in any class beyond Novice. I attempted to get this formally changed, but was not able to. Instead, SPA CDs have the right to waive details like this--I do not believe that would be a problem. We have already waived that rule at the Asheville contest.

The idea for a 1-2, (most often discussed is 1), contest "grace period" for ALL CLASSES instead of Novice only has been discussed within the organization. I agree with the idea behind what you propose, but the Board of Directors, for now at least, has decided to keep that rule in effect. As I said earlier, "Rome wasn't built in a day"; the rule may change some day , but for now it is felt that only SPA-legal planes should compete against each other in the upper classes---I don't fully agree with that rule, and feel the same standard set in Novice should be applied to all classes. People should be able to come out and try a contest on for the "right fit----but that's the way it is right now. However I don't have to be in total agreement with everything to love the SPA experience.

I DO feel that a combined SPA/BPA contest if offered, with BPA planes being judged but not counting in the final standings is an attempt to bring in BPA-type planes and pilots of all classes for people to see what SPA is all about. Yes I would agree, that after a couple contests where your scores don't count would be an incentive to "get legal".

Good luck
Duane

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Mike it sure was a great start after several years without any aerobatic events in México, as I wrote it was a lot of fun and getting to meet so many pilots was even better, I just dont like IMAC that much I've been flying for the last 30 or so years and learned aerobatics with mach one's tiporare's, curare's, kaos etc ..maybe thats why I like FAI better, but do agree with you it was a good start.

regards.
Rafa

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

I'm sorry. I'm not a member right now. I haven't joined yet because there really isn't anything going on here in Hawaii. I am the only pattern pilot here (I kinda feel like that lost bumble bee in that music video a few years back. :)) I've been watching, eagerly for an outcome of this debate. I do understand both sides, they both hold strong merits for there sides. But for me, I'd like to see a joined SPA/BPA contest. For me to attend, it will cost me at least $2000. I can't do this often, so I would enjoy flying with as many Pattern pilots as I can. I don't really care if there gear is up or down, but mine will be up.:D I would love to fly in a novice class w/ Mike McConville, that would be more rewarding than placing! And remember we already have Mr. Jason Shulman hooked on the classics. He Has shown up already with his Aurora and I know he was looking for an Atlanta a while back.
I think there are a few laid back BPA guys that just want the experience of sharing time with people of common interest, I know I do. But there are a few competitive pilots out there that are more serious it. I mean it IS a contest, so the rules should help those guys practicing and gearing up for competition. I'm sure MM or Jason wouldn't appreciate it if they took time out to compete in a serious contest and the CD didn't see it that way.
I hope I'm not offending anyone, I know this is a touchy subject with some, and I am an outsider (non-member) but I just want come out there and fly my planes with you guys. :D
Maybe we could plan an SPA/BPA Fly In sometime???
Just a thought.

DM

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

BTW, I did join SPA 4 or so years ago, but never went to an event. Dont think I've paind my dues the last few years though. I'm still on the e-mailing list.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

MIKE YOU KNOW IF HORIZON WILL EVER ATTEMPT TO BRING OUT ONE OF THIS CLASSIC PATTERN PLANE IN ARF VERSION? MAYBE MACH1, CURARE, TIPORARE, BLUE ANGEL ...COULD BE A GREAT IDEA, WHY DONT YOU TALK ABOUT IT IN HORIZON, IM SURE LOTS OF PLANES COULD BE SOLD.

RAFA

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Subscribing up to this thread ..... mainly so I can keep abreast of this contest as spring and summer approach :)

I too was an SPA member for some time. I flew in a few events when I lived in Atlanta years ago, and hosted one SPA event as CD. The format was fun, and we all had a good time. I even took the opportunity to introduce a few modeling associates to the events.

Just an observation ... SPA has been around for a while because the formula works. Rule creep has not been a real issue, although I saw some discussions on "evolutions" of some aircraft designs, and for a while debates over the FS.91 engines. The whole premis was to "keep it like it was", and keep it inexpensive. So there was a defined historical reference and a charter goal. And as such, there was rarely that risk of the hotest, newest engine or airplane that suddently changed the nature of competition.

I recall when it was a big deal when the SPA aircraft design date slipped all the way to 1975 :)

Its ok to come up with other formulas and other events, but those become other events. BPA and VPA are a great examples.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Just a question on SPA rules. Provided the airplane is on the SPA list, is it ok to fly a model w/ retracts as long as they are left down for the whole flight? Thats in any class not just Novice.
Also, are muffled 2 stroke 60s oK or are there stringent sound restrictions that are driving the group to 4 strokes?

BTW, I noticed on the SPA lairplane list thatt the Phoenix designs are legal up thru the VIII. Not sure why if the cutoff for legal airplanes is 1975. The P8 was first on the contest circuit in 1978, so at the earliest, it was designed in '77.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Quoting from the SPA website rules page:

Aircraft

a: Any model designed and flown before January 1, 1976 is legal

Antique class were dated prior to 1/1/1965

You are correct, the web page listing of aircraft does include the P8 ---- perhaps someone more familiar might have an explaination.
I agree with your information on the project dates.

http://www.seniorpattern.com/planes.asp
Perhaps it extends to the concept of a variation of an approved design? SPA has shown a good deal of flexibility.
(example ... killer kaos, various kaos resembling varients are permitted, most designed/flown well into the 1980's and later)

Retracts are permitted on the aircraft, and can be flown in any class as long as you leave them down. I last flew an SPA event with a compensator with the gear down.

2-c muffled engines seem to be making a comeback or sorts vs the .91 4-c engines. Of note, in support of several requests some time back, I obtained clarification from the SPA leaders on the engine and muffler combination. The Jett-Stream and ultra-thrust mufflers are indeed legal for SPA competition. So the muffler need not be a stock exhaust.

Bob

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

bob27s/Mike

I believe you are right when you talk of the "varient theory". It is well known that the P8 was designed after the cut-off, but because earlier Phoenix models were approved, the P8 was too. I think someone in SPA with influence must have pushed that one through---Jan 1976 is a pretty plain cut-fff date. Interestingly, I have not seen a Phoenix 8 at a contest in the three years I've been a member. I think part of the reason is the small area in the nose for the 2-stroke-----the 4-stroke won't fit very well, and there are so many other planes that are legal.

You can fly with retracts if they are down. Except for Knoxville, 2-strokes are welcome with a muffler, or a Ultrathrust attachment. I used one once and lost my plane because the engine quit at the wrong time--needle setting seems to be much more finiky.

Someone had a Jett .61 at the SPA Board meeting last weekend--showing it off, so we'll be seeing it soon. There was a noticible increase in 2-strokes last season, and they performed well--wasn't much of a performance difference, but there was a much different sound--a couple of those engines screamed.

Duane

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

I am looking at Jett. My P-6 is almost ready for paint, no engine yet, will take a look. Was ready to put in an OS61FX. Anyone have any experience with Jett 61 in 7.5 - 8 LB. plane ?

Vince

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

From what I understand, the Jett sixty is in a "46" case. You may want to find out if has the torque to turn conventional sixty-size props necessary to produce the thrust you will need.

David

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Mike it was my understanding only 1 field in the SPA schedule has a noise problem. That doesn't mean others won't follow. I know my field requires a muffler on .20 and up engine. The closest residental house is probably 3 miles........Like I said , bring your plane with retacts and put a side exhaust engine on. Put a piped engine on after SPA contest or use a swan neck. I will be the first to run diesel in SPA. I just got my muffler yesterday and will start breakin on Webra 61 with glow fuel first. Then put Davis head on after breakin..........I like those Webra speeds and ABC to boot.

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Rainedave - What you just said about torque, is the same language I PM' to Bobs27, (RCU Name), who is associated with Jett. Reading their ad, I think they were talking 11X7 props. (?)
My concern like you said, the torque factor. Looking at the light case, does it have the muscle. Everything I read about Jett is good.

I am using 12X7 and 12X8 APC's on the OS61FX.

Vince

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Vince, what numbers are you getting with those props on your FX .61?

I'm guessing the Jett 90L is the engine for that prop range.

Thanks,
David

RE: Good News for Senior Pattern in Midwest
 

Dave - Believe this. I don't tach anything, never have. This OS is in the Intruder, about 7.75 lbs. No problem on verticals. I may start on the tach situation with the DA50's I will be running on the bigger birds.

Back in the day, I never tached the G61 Tigre ABC's. I know a lot of guys that did. D. Brown, Lowe and those guy's, were always using tachs on the pattern planes.
In the air, vs. on the ground, lot of difference with rpm's, right ?

Reading the numbers on Jett's engines, very impressive, but for this 7 lb. + planes, will they haul the mail with the 11 X 7's ? Which prop would you use in a Jett .61 ? I would not want the .91 two stroke, SPA sez 2 stroke is .61 material.

Vince