RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Cees, I'm glad you came to kind of an evolution theory for the Taurus. I understand Ed modified the fuse and the vertical tail of the Orion, but in several steps. The longer fuselage obviously came later, if your theory is correct. We already have a backup to your measurement by comparing the distance between canopy and blue stripe on the fuselage top (my comment in [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=7983415]post #775[/link] on page 31 and crate picture in [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=7896320]post #622[/link] on page 25). I have to admit that I had confused left with right fuselage in the first place, but the text has been corrected.

By the way, great to see another Emco Unimat. My father bought one when I was 15 or so and I made articulated joints for rudder linkages and tailwheel assemblies with it. Wonder what you use it for, except as a stand.

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Hello UStik,

About the Taurus, you are right, and I am glad too. But I have to do a second check with the laser.
(Yes gents in the future also this Taurus has components made with the using of the “laser”!)

And the copy crate picture in the future!

B.T.W. All I do depends on very little details I found on the crate picture.

For example I can see both dowels of the fuse in the crate, that gives me the possibility to make “3D” checks. These little details makes it possible to do the job!!!!!
Interesting for you UStik see post 231 page 10 Ed Kazmirski’s Taurus, picture 1, your hatch, and the tape, also on this Taurus!

Also your backup measurement is proved!! Congrats UStik.

About the Emco Unimat, picture 2, as an example, the pneumatic retracts of the Orion. Could not make it without the Emco.
I do have the Emco from about 1968, I was 17 year. My father bought it for me!
Also to make venturies for the vario for gliders (3,4) and pitot tubes (5) for speed measurements, and so on. For me no life without my Emco.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Ustik,
I did make a little summary on my way to be complete for when it is proved on a moment in the future.

FIRST STEP

We know after the Orion Ed did make the Flop, with still the (frise?) normal ailerons, and inverted engine with very high thrust line but with tricycle landing gear.

The main disadvantage is in my opinion the wrong wing setting and tail cone of a tail dragger, so you have no profit of the tricycle plane during flight (only more drag more weight!) ,
Only during touch down this tricycle has a pro.

I still do not see a profit in the inverted engine? That very high thrust line maybe has something to do with the tail planes in straight line behind the prop? Spin?

SECOND STEP

So the next step was necessary to the Wester Taurus with the wing setting and the right tail cone of a real tricycle plane.

We also see the very low thrust line with the normal mounted engine in “lowest possible position”.

Very important is also the introduction of the strip ailerons.
So, these strip ailerons probably did fly in November 1961 that can an important fact when compare with other “known” planes.

And that fin? With the 45 degrees swept back rudder hanging line? Maybe it is an invention of Ed. We know they did use the principlke to get the plane (Taurus) on the right way in a spin, but that’s we will see in the future. In that (reed) period they did use an elevator servo with extra deflection when idled the engine.

ABOUT THE STEPS

It is also, I did write in the other thread before we discovered the Flop, you cannot change an Orion in a tricycle, you have to build a complete new airplane, because that is what really happened.
The first step was a Flop
Also the others made these two steps (I think), and so I did show the planes of Zel Ritchie. (Phantoms)

THIRD STEP
What you said, the long tail we all know about, was the next step. Introduced in the TF and other Taurusses.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Cees, just a few thoughts from my point of view:

Still I don't believe the wing incidence and the horizontal stab position have to do with the landing gear. If you switch from a taildragger to a trike, you may modify these things in one go. But the lower horizontal stab should be made for better stall behavior (the wing wake not hitting the stab) and a more "centered" configuration.

The same (centering) could be true for the later lower engine thrust line position - near to the center of drag. Obviously, on the "flop" this thought was not yet applied. I have no clue why the old models had a high thrust line position, but inverting the engine might have been done to have the carburetor and the tank level and maybe to have a bit lower drag (seems Ed avoided parasitic drag and provided for "good" wing drag).

The slanted (swept?) vertical tail is not Ed's invention. He might have thought that it contributes a down force for stalling/spinning. Maybe this turned out still too small and he added the elevator boost later.

I have no clue either what the benefit of strip ailerons should be except an easier build, no weak spots near the aileron root, and simple linkage without bellcranks. Aerodynamically, I would prefer barn doors.

And another thing you didn't mention so far: the wing structure. The Orion had the upper and lower spar on top of each other. The Taurus has them staggered, the upper spar more back but still so the dihedral braces can be glued on both. What is the intention? Only sheeting the round parts? The plans seem to show no shear webs, though you obviously use them on your Taurus. So you have a full D-tube with torsional stiffness while the original Taurus (and Orion) had not. Did I miss something?

I know old designs from the 1960s where no shear webs and no torsional stiffening are provided, but 1/4" square spruce bars. What a tremendous waste of strength and stiffness, and what a weight! The absence of shear webs could explain why the swept carrier wing had diagonal ribs - it needed to.

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

UStik,

The points of the summery are my points of view, way of thinking or opinions, we can discus about it in the future if we want.

Only:
The strip ailerons, Ed preferred because the wing was lighter and easier to built. You can read this in the other thread.

The picture of the wing I show is from 4-5 years back when I build the Taurus.
BTW ribs from plywood! Spruce spars! That’s a freight aircraft no contest plane!
So you did not miss anything I always use a D tube for several reasons.

Also in the Orion, 4,5 kg!

And the wing structures, this can be interesting when designing the wings of the Wester Taurus. It will be the first time I will use balsa spars, what about that!

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Well, that's funny! Not really knowing, I would guess this should be no problem at all, though.

The Taurus has those "superformed leading edges" made of especially light balsa. I think you could even omit the spars and replace them by strips of hard balsa sheeting - if only suitable shear webs are used. The hard strips could be tapered from root to tip, and the shear webs could have gaps near the wingtips - both for ultimate lightness and low moment of inertia. This would still make for a strong I-beam (bending) and a full D-tube (torsion).

But it would be a different Taurus, or what do you think?

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

UStik,

The Taurus originally has balsa spars, 1/4 x 1/2 so that is no weight.
The balsa nose sheeting and the shear webs both use a surface to glue the connection if I want to make the D. And that are the balsa spars.
In that case I probably am going to use 8 x 8 mm spars.
BTW, we do not know the internals of the old Taurus wing with the 3 ailerons thread hangings.
It is clear that with a 19 % wing the silk and dope covering makes the wing strong and with less wood light.
I always want to use the D tube beause it fixes the total wing before covering.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

As far as wing strength goes, it is primarily on the surface. Remember the pattern planes of the 70's/80's with foam wings? No strength at all in the foam, but the wing sheeting 1/16" balsa took it all. And at high speeds and G forces. Even then, you could cut huge sections of balsa out of the middle of the wing, and still have a structurally sound wing.

Look at my Perigee I just finished, the spars (full depth) are soft balsa 1/16 and primarily serve to hold the ribs in place, but the strength is in the sheeting, with lots of open bay area. There are no square spars just under the skin.

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

WEDJ,

Of course is true what you wrote, all the covering material on the skin will take the forces not only the silk I wrote.
And it is known, balsa can take a bit of force in length direction, more than the silk.
Maybe it is a pro the flexibility of the silk and dope is nearly the same as balsa( I think). So both can do there job until deforming.

The picture of the Taurus wing used in Belgium shows the centre section bottom side. Connection of sheeting and skin

RCM & E Taurus

Sheeting material on the Taurus drawing 3/32 = 2,38 mm, a little more than 2 mm.
We can make a choice between 1,5 mm (0,059”) 2 mm (0,078) maybe 2,5 mm
I prefer 2 mm because of handling, transport.

Your 1/16 WEDJ is 1,58 mm is between those two values.

Taurus normally has two balsa main spars ¼ x ½, so the cross sectional surface is as 1 ½ “ wide strip of sheeting.
On the root the drawing gives spar doublers for de first 4 ribs so to compare with a 3” wide strip of skin.
Result is what you said, we can nearly forget the spars, only when I want to make the D tube I need them back, so see the picture.

Wester Taurus wing rib

Nose spar for easy building and prevent nose damage during transport and so on.
All balsa construction with triangular main spars and balsa shear webs.
D-tube to prevent deformation during building.
The total amount of material I use will nearly be the same Ed did use, only on the place I want.

Some words about spars and ribs

My experience is the big spruce spars and 2 a 3 mm plywood wing ribs prevent damage during a crash ad makes the remains often repairable.
In the Orion the maingear is directly bolted on top and bottom mainspar.
Main axle of each leg is a steel 8 mm axles on two ball bearings!

While discussing the wing I am also preparing the lasercheck of the tail and calculate the stab dimensions of the Wester Taurus. So maybe next time more positive results.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Gents,

I did some investments and bought me cardboard to make a nice laser beam template for the fuselage. This plate again I make with the crate picture and some calculations.

The holes represents the position of the markers on of the fuselage.

I can highlight 15 spots of the fuse, even the top of the glowplug of the K & B and characteristic paintings on the turtledeck.

The dowels of the wing are visible on the outside of the fuselage of the crate so not in the centre. So the position of the markers is 40 mm above the drawing. These are my references for the top of the fin!!!!!

This afternoon I did success full beaming the tail feathers of the Taurus,

Some pictures:
Picture 1 measurement, ANIMATION
Picture 2 lathe with laser beam, ANIMATION
Picture 3 marker template, after the picture is taken I did make some more holes for marking the centre position of the wingdowels.
Picture 4 dowel markers
Picture 5 stab LE with laser spot
Picture 6 TE stab with laser spot
Picture 7 dowel marker LE with laser spot
Picture 8 top of fin and rudder with laser spot


Results:

LE and TE of the stab picture 5 and 6 as expected no difference with the thread method and I always can get this result, but

Important was the topside of the fin and rudder hanging to know if the dimensions of the fin were good so.
The side view of the fuselage I did adjust with de mounting height of the beam on the lathe.
Reference were the dowel markers on 50 % of the fuse width.

The lower the position of the beam the higher the spot on the dowel markers, with after every adjustment of the beam new re-adjustment of the template on other spots of the fuselage so, canopy, stab LE and TE, etc.

With the spot on the right point on the dowelmarkers, so after again reconstructing of the right point of view, we also see the top of the fin highlighted in picture 8 and also other markers of the fin(3).

Conclusion:
Drawing of the fin (and a lot of other elements) is right I can go on with preparing the construction.

So gents, this again was an interesting activity in the process of redesigning the Oldest Taurus on Earth.

It would be amazing when somebody shows me a (still existing) drawing of this Taurus. Maybe somewhere on this earth there is one. Or maybe that picture, taken in November 1961.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Cees,
Original Taurus drawing (blueprint from Dec. 1961) was the basis for the RCM&E (October 1962) magazine drawing. Plan was probably sent to the Franklin brothers early 1962 as Maurice Franklin (Henchman designer) was flying a Taurus before Jan. 1963. (Reported in the Jan 1963 Aeromodeller)
Evan.

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Hello Evan,

That is very interesting, I think this post is very important for the "Ed Kazmirski's Taurus" thread, to record in the time sheet of the thread!
Will you take care for that?

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Gents

In the Ed Kazmirski’s Taurus thread Duane wrote in post 778 page 32:
>>>

Also as R/C left the "pioneer days", the competition gets tougher. To stay "on top" is hard to do, and requires continued ambition, drive, and commitment.
>>>

An important fact to investigate and look at picture 1, bullet holes in the Taurus fin and rudder!

What does that mean in history? The competition already was tough in 1961?
Yes and no,

Yes, it already was tough and no, (I think) it is still tough today and in the “pioneer days”!
That’s why I like building and flying model airplanes, because there is so much to investigate, discover and RECOVER.

So, it is the old pizza box cover Taurus laser beam template again. Used this time for some education and simulation.

I have a new template you know so I do use this cover againagain (rerecycling!), to simulate the rudder and fin, and do a second check on the shape.
Look at picture 2 part of the crate picture and
Picture 3 my own picture after some fotoshopping.
Picture 4 original
Picture 5 the studio.

Yes we of the Taurus clan also use simulators so. Simulators?
“As old as the way to Rome!”

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Gents,

First two construction pictures, to archive.

Wingribs 3 mm. 1/8 balsa plywood, weigth 123 gram, 4,3 oz.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Gents,
A little update.

I think some of you already do understand my way of building and flying model airplanes.

Most of the good thinks are thrown away, nearly forgotten and problem full things did come back.
Think about the threaded hangings and what I did write in the thread of Ckuck about his 6 volt battery pack.

The first proportionals did not have strong servo’s! We could read about that, the way Ed was thinking about the dimensions of the ailerons. Of course they did use 1 servo so eliminate at least the aerodynamic forces.
Now we use (not me) for every barndoor one or more digital servo’s. High torque, 6 Volt extra precise positioning, digital .
This again does ask for better battery’s and chargers.

The old servo’s did use 2,4 V (rest 2 V after the power transistor) for one direction to move, now people want us do believe we need 6 V! (Not talking about safety George, a reason to use 5 cells)
When it is all in you hobby room you are not finished yet , you need CF materials and titanium to bring all these mechanical energy to that barndoors, so…….. gluing that all together is your next problem. Because your fast and powerfull servo’s nearly shake off the pushrods and rudders. Read the stories.

After a short time you think, hé, where is all my money, and you want to show it your buddies. Make all that furniture on the outside of the plane. So let me predict, your next problem will be.

One collision with that fanatic Oystercatcher or other object in the air, end of the show!

To be a counterpart in that way of thinking I am going the other way. Back to the future.

Nothing visible on that very strong outside of the plane of the linkages. Reduce the energy to the rudders to a normal functional proportion so nothing can happen with the mechanical layout.
To protect the planes and feathers, spruce TE (2 or 3 mm thick) on every plane and 1 mm plywood in the LE of every aileron, elevator and rudder

A next environmental friendly step is to reduce the capital investment I refuse to buy me a massive block of balsa for the top of the fuse like Ed did.
A massive block, make it hollow and throw away 90 %, that’s not Dutch, that’s destroying of (nature) capital.
I tryto didgeridoo the top of the fuselage, see the pictures.

First I did prepare a cheap wet three ply balsa sheet with elastic bands around the special prepared half “didjeridoo=DJRD”, to give it a round shape.
Then remove one sheet from the inside and make it around the DJRD with rope with some textile on both sides and pack it in a plastic bag with 5 % ammonium.
After about 12 hours repeat the process with the rope a second time and wait again for 12 hours.
Then dry the present for about 24 hours , waiting for unpacking.

And that is what you see on the pictures.

Most important of all is of this method, you make a present, a gift for yourself which you may unpack on a later moment and of which you will be a surprised (negative or positive ) when opening. I nearly can't wait, so exciting.
What is special? Look the side view, a double convex surface in two directions for a single little money. Thinking about that, may be Ed did use this method in the past and we did forget just like almost the whole history!
More to come.
Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Gents, my “WINTERADVICE”

Talking about batteries also in the other thread of Chuck “New six Volt battery user here...” I did think about winter in Europe and Belgium 1963.

Flying the way they did in the past.

No electrical starter, no power panel or glow plug modulator?
Did they fly anyway?

Yes they and we did fly so information the way I start my MVVS 7,5 ccm (0,45) Video Jonni when the temperature is beneath 14 degrees C (57, 2 F) and evaporation of the alcohol stops.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/mvp/videolink.cfm?postid=5654

See also the picture, Hot Coffee for me Hot water for the cylinder head of the MVVS.
BTW: second picture of the Taurus when the head temperature is below 14 degrees especially for flying in cold circumstances, the LED is blue (green normal, too hot, red).
Of course it is important that all the batteries are in good condition not only the 4,8 V in the plane.
(The Taurus uses two battery packs, one for the radio control the other for the electronics.)
So a tip for the winter, use a “heat accu” and no “start accu” to start your glowplugengine and protect the ABC lining.
Two parallel penlight 1300 mAH will do the job for the glowplug and wooden shoes keep my feet warm!.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Years back, to fly in the winter, we would use lighter fluid to prime the engines. Worked great.

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

WEDJ,

That's a new trick for me.
Maybe the question is, what is better for the piston clearance when use a unringed (ABC?), I think hot water.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Back then we weren't using ABC's ;-)

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

WEDJ,

Of course I know, that's why I will use the Webra 6,5 with ring for the Taurus..

I did start RC with a Webra 3,5 CCM Glo Star. U/C with 1,5 CCM diesel Webra record

BTW, WEDJ, I did open my present, and look, I think a good usable top for the fuselage of the taurus.
Material 2 mm, 2 ply balsa. Didgeridoo it myself!
I am making a frame with 12 formers to fix this top on the fuselage on the same way the massive top was mounted..

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Cees,

That is a very good and light solution to the top of the body. And, it mirrors the wing LE philosophy that Ed K. did. I think it is in the spirit of the oldest Taurus on earth for sure, if not a duplicate of it's construction.

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

WEDJ,

The top of the fuse glued on the frame, picture 1, drying for at least 48 hours so, You see the backside, the plug.
Picture 2, the stab, 21,5 % less surface than the standard Taurus!

Why did we talk so much about the proportional Taurus, with the shortened fuselage, just we saw on the picture of Japan?
Now I am reconstructing the plane of the crate and I realise, this Wester Taurus could be a very good one for the modern proportional radio, even electrical propulsion is in the picture.

Interesting the Oldest Taurus on Earth ready for the newest possibilities of propulsion.
A Taurus with a LiPo battery pack, yach.
A Taurus Cycle? No way, in the Netherlands only the pilots are cycling. But of course not with there tumbs, thumbs are for flying!.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Gents,

We all know Ed was in Bern in 1960 in Switserland with his Orion and became World Champion!.
The Orion was one of the older planes from Ed together with the later “Flop”.

That Ed was influenced by this visit maybe we later see because of the use of the Italian Super Tigre in his Taurus in 1964..
I think also the use of his High Tech Cuckoo Clock Double Elevator Pushrod is from this period so we use also this detail again in the rebuild of the Oldest Taurus on Earth.

I show you the picture.

Second picture the benchvice bend device.
I bend the 3 mm (1/8) piano wire on an old benchvice which I did modify with a grinding wheel to bend the pianowire cold with a radius.
I also bend the landing gear (1/6) with radius on this benchvice.
Picture of the High Tech Cuckoo Clock Double Elevator Pushrod is for in the archive, when the system is build in the fuselage we cannot see the details anymore.

Cees

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Gents,

The top of the fuselage is finished.
The frame is strong and the shape is good.
Looking to the topside of the fuse I think there is no difference with a massive top.
I could not buy a massive block so I did make a surrogate.
I can make this top still a lot lighter when I remove parts of the frame before gluing is together with the bottom side of the fuselage. I have to do this for example near the tank and servo compartment.

The frame have to be strong because of the forces to bent the plywood in the last phase of gluing it on its frame in the past.

For who is trying the same for a fuse some technical bla bla for what is possible:

Balsa plywood 3 mm , 1/8 inch sheet material.
After bending the first time , I removed the inner sheet. Two sheets left.

Process of bending see one of the old posts.

Length of the top 80 cm, 32 inch
Wide 80 mm,( 3 5/32 ”) near the engine room 78 mm (3 1/16 ”) near the TE of the wing.
Distance over the surface measured near the engine room, 102 mm (4 “)
Distance over the surface at the highest point of the fuse, 120 mm (4 3/4”)
Distance over the surface near the TE of the wing 116 mm (4 9/16”)
I think the surface on highest part of the top is 15 % enlarged, c.q. less near the engine room.

The tail cone is nearly straight so no problem.

Bending near the LE of the stab, is end of the top, 40 mm wide, so radius is 20 mm (25/32)
Overall bending 180 degrees in every cross section so in the furure the vertical outsides are parallel with the side of the fuse .

For who has a question, let me know.
Cees

BTW, That's no coffee Ustik.

RE: Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth
 

Gents,

How do you manage your constructing quality control?
May I introduce you my personal quality controller.
Mostly on my chair, on the back side of me. I take the front for what is left..
When the job is important, so the elevators on this moment, she wants to see the details.

HANNA poes my partner in engineering and constructing "Scratch her nails when quality fails"

Cees


And picture 2 after I did post this mssage, Hanna in her chair position. When she takes a "time out".