RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

I have a set of them in the Gulfstream I'm building. They're larger than Robarts and while they share some common features, they're very different.

I put them into CAD and will post a DXF here after lunch. I don't have them on this machine.

The nose gear length isn't easy to change. You would have to cut out a little plastic in order to get a wheel collar on the top. The stock one has a C clip in a groove on the top end of the strut.

The mains have very long wires so you'll have no problem using them on a standard model. The stock bend is at an angle to fit into the E-Flite F-15.

The wire is 2.6mm (.100"). A 3/32" collar is too small, and 1/8" is too big. Fortunately, they include retainers for the wheels. What sizes do metric wheel collars come in?

For my plane, I chose to set the mains up for .5 degree negative with a 1.25" nose wheel and 1.5" mains. If I change to 1.25" mains, I get about 1 deg positive, and if I change to a 1.5" nose I get almost 3.

BTW, if anybody has DXF of the Robart 123/124 retracts I'd appreciate a copy.

Andy

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

David, Dan, like myself can't stand a nice pattern plane turned into a tail dragger, I think he was shocked to see I had turned a sport/pattern plane into a tail dragger!!!!!!!! LOL!

I have one of Dans T2A MK II,by the way is a work of art! I have never seen a glass and foam kit like this; perfect! I have a NIB Rossi 60/w tuned pipe and NIB spring air Retracts will glass the wings and tail with .50 oz fiberglass to keep it light. hope to have it done for the next BPA meet in August I think????? the Kwik Fli is almost done radio is in, engine been mounted for fit remove them. I need to finish final sanding, then monokote, will do the same colors as Phil Kraft did the original with a few changes.
I have the T-20 next on the list after the T2A can't wait to start the T-20 NIB S.T. 25X for it, maybe something bigger...............

Pete

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Andy,

thanks for the info. I look forward to your DXF and/or PDF of the units.

The Robarts I was referring to that look similar to these E-Flite units are the bigger 4 lb units not the 123/124 2 lb units for 1/2A models. A picture of them is attached.

Do the E-Flite's also come with pushrod hardware? Are the struts bent and the wheel held on with a washer at the bend and plastic collar-like retainer?

If you're able to take a couple of photos also, it would be much appreciated.

Electrifly recently came out with light aluminum spinners including one of 1-1/2" OD. Although there is also a GP 1-1/2" OD alum spinner for glow I would imagine that the light ones would work just as well on .15-.23 size engines.

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Andy,

There are PDF schematic files of the 2 lb 123/124 units on Robart's site. I've attached them here with modified extensions (download by right-click and save as 123.pdf and 124.pdf, respectively). They are not to scale but this is easy to fix on printing by blowing up the required amount (to be determined).

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Of course, just got it. I was a little worried you had tail dragged your T2A!

Excellent news! The T20's are next in line on my agenda too although I'll continue to work on their bigger siblings; the GP T60's.

A ST X25 sounds just perfect for the T20. I bought one recently and managed with much luck to find a header for it too. I'm considering using the X25 for the T20 although I'm curious about departing from the plans and build an assymetric (squarer) glow version with a larger (wider/longer) fuse and use the OS 32 SX which I had originally planned for it. That leaves me with some questions as to what project to build around the X25. I have been thinking about a Magic... any ideas/suggestions?

I took a couple of snaps of the X25 yesterday for a friend in far away lands who's considering picking one up. The pipe is a 3.5cc Macs quiet pipe I sourced from Graves. The header, I believe, was sourced from Sheldon's (they may have more). I find that the included muffler is somewhat inappropriate for this engine but is just perfect for the G20's for the D10/T10 projects. I'll be using it on the D10 for the G20/23 (or G20/15 if I can't track the bird fast enough... :D). I believe that the muffler was originally made for the G20 series (.15, .20, .23). The X25 should work nicely on a pipe!

Of course, they both have the same header screw spacing making the idea of putting a pipe on the G20's an interesting experiment... (ST says that they would work fine on a pipe - we'll see...)

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

I've had the Robart PDFs but they aren't CAD drawings, and when I converted them using Aide they were way off. I'll just draw them myself eventually, probably for the next plane.

I have a set of 600-type also, and they are closer to that format. You should be able to drill them out to 1/8 for heavier legs. I didn't have time at lunch to take pix. I'll try to remember for tonight.

The E-Flite's have pushrods with a threaded end and plastic end-cap with a hole. You can hook them right up to a clevis no problem.

The struts are bent, but like I mentioned the mains are real long and bent at a funny angle for the F-15. You need to rotate them 90 degrees for the spring and bend where you want them. The wheels are held on by a retaining washer. I don't know the right name, but it's like a C-clip that goes full-circle. I didn't see any plastic collar caps - this is a steel washer thingy. The nose leg isn't very easy to change unless you want to make it a lot shorter. You might run into clearance issues then. The DXF shows the factory length. The DXF mains are shown bent for my plane. They're actually much longer.

Hope this helps.

DXF's are attached. Download the files, rename from .TXT to .DXF.

Andy

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Andy,

What do you use the DXF's for? Retract installation planning? I can see how DXF's are useful for a laser cutter for example but was just wondering how they help with retract units?

I forgot what the scaling factor was for the 124 nose unit but I managed to print their PDF to exact dimensions marked. I'm using these templates as a substitute for the actual gear so that I can continue with the built without the unit. I hope those dimensions printed are right!

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

I do all my design work in CAD. If I ever need to work on a sheet of paper (such as for building off old plans) I can easily print a component exactly 100% sized or anything in-between. I will literally build the entire model in CAD first, then make a real one. Saves a ton of time in the long run. I have been doing this for 10-15 years and have built a pretty good library of components.

Here are some photos for you. The nose gear is mounted on the plate that goes into my Gulfstream along with the nose retract servo. It was easier to do this than run a third pushrod off the mains servo and hook it up inside the narrow nosegear well to prep for flying. The bag of accessories shows the retainers and misc parts.

I was wrong earlier. It DOES come with short pushrods. These are for the installation in the F-15.

Andy

Edit: Pix are 2 msgs below.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Andy,

thanks for the photos. Very informative. They do look very much like the 4 lb units by Robart - just probably a little smaller.

BTW, it looks like the photos didn't post as they do normally - it's kinda hard to see them and makes the page a little hard to read. Would you be able to fix that?

Thanks, David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

wow doxilla, you've just convinced me I need a 24" screen!

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

I'm lazy, David! I just put them on the site and pasted the links here. Otherwise I'd have had to open GIMP, resize, rename, resave, for each.

I wanted the full resolution there so you could see the parts and how I modified the pushrod exit on the nose gear.

If you want to save them to your disk and do that and re-post, be my guest. If you do it'll take me 30 seconds to delete them from my server.

Andy

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Re-posting the E-Flite F15 retract unit photos... They should make a nice inexpensive alternative to the Great Planes 10 (mains)/Robart 124 (nose) combo.

Thanks Andy!

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

David who sells those F15 retracts ? towerhobbies ?

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

E-Flite is a Horizon brand. The part number you want to order is EFL7065 $21.99.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=EFL7065

The website says out of stock right now, but you might try calling anyway.

Andy

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Thanks Andy,

While dissecting brands here's a breakdown of the two hobby giants:

Hobbico | Great Planes | Electrifly | Futaba | OS/ST/Fuji | Tower Hobbies (retail POS) | RC Universe (online portal)

Horizon | Hangar 9 | E-Flite | JR/Spektrum | Saito/Evolution/Zenoah | Horizon (retail POS is not branded) | RC Groups (afiliated online portal?)

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Funny! Immediately above your post was an ad for ParkZone - another Horizon brand ... on RCU! And I know that Hobby-Lobby and Tower/GP/Hobbico advertises an awful lot on RCG. It's probably a safe bet to say the forums take money from both!

andy

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

David, I'll try this way. Pete

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Pete,

beautiful, unmarred, sleek and smooth looking Kwik Fli. She'll be in the air in no time!

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

After a few quiet evenings of building, an update seems in order.

I've been working on the nose section. Engine is installed (after much ado about nothing, turned out I had a DB 2025 mount for the ST in my drawer [:-]) and I framed up the cowl in a variation of the 60 size approach. Essentially, I continued the fuse structure and built up a thicker box around the mounted ST. On a whim, after mounting the called for 1-1/2" spinner on the G20 a few times and feeling it was inappropriate, I decided to go with a 1-3/4" spinner. So I cut another nose ring and built the cowl up around that.

I'll be directing someone who's building a cowl for an old UFO being restored here so I'll include a few details and pics. First, I mounted the DB mount and engine on the thrust line (evidently) and checked for clearances around the engine in cutting the pieces for the cowl. For whatever reason (Jim Kimbro would probably be upset with this...), I decided to include a smidgen (1-2 degrees?) of right thrust on mounting - we'll see, I can always remove it.

I then built up the nose former by backing the 1/16" ply nose ring with a 1/4" balsa square. The square former was sanded to contour on top but left shy of the nose ring diameter by about 1/8" on the sides and bottom. This allows the 3/16" cowl sides and bottom to be butt joined against the nose former when glued in position leaving 1/16" balsa thickness exposed around the nose ring. This permits the cowl to be sanded to contour around the nose ring. A 1/16" balsa circle of spinner diameter (1-3/4 in) was then tack glued to the front of the ply nose ring and bored out. This is the spacer clearance between the nose of the fuse and the spinner. The spinner backplate was then centered and tack glued on to this balsa ring forming a 4-ply balsa/ply/balsa/plastic sandwich.

I then cut the cowl sides and bottom to measure as well as the top piece fuse extension to cover the engine mount and plumbing exit from the FW. The ring sandwich was then center mounted on the engine (taken care of by the spinner) and the cowl framed up and glued on with CA. Finally, the bottom of the cowl side/bottom junction was lined with 1/2" triangle stock to allow the assembly to be sanded smooth and to contour.

What follows no longer should apply to a properly built cowl!

At this point, I realized - Houston, we have a problem! Not having thought about how the 1/4" increased spinner diameter would affect the lines of the aircraft, it dawned on me that I was faced with a droopy cowl which wouldn't continue the fuse bottom airfoil shape... :eek:

Took a step back, considered and thought about how best to fix the situation. First, I thought, slice it off and start again using the right spinner! Then, I sat down and re-drew the fuse bottom airfoil and noticed what adjustments needed to be made to correct the problem. So I came up with the Frankenstein approach...

I cut another fuse bottom hatch for the nose gear about 1" short of the full length. The thickness was established (I think plans called for 5/16" for the original and I cut another of 3/16 in). I then sanded this hatch down to a wedge shape (that part was fun) leaving the front thick and the rear to taper smoothly into the existing hatch leaving the joint at F2 flush. The new hatch was glued together and taped on to the fuse bottom. Then another square piece of 3/16" (I believe) was glued on to the (unfortunately already somewhat sanded to contour) cowl bottom. Trust me, it looked ugly! I took stock and put my arm into it. Half an hour later, I had, to my amazement, a new fuse bottom that matched the plan contour to a T!

A little more work is needed on the cowl bottom to fill small gaps and smooth everything out but overall I'm quite happy with this mod of sorts. As a side benefit, the hatch front is a little thicker (not much now that everything is sanded to shape) providing a little more meat for the part once it's been cut to pass the gear.

In summary, the procedure worked and the cowl is pretty close to Jim's design which is what I was striving for (a little minor work is needed on the nose ring top area). The top part at the FW remains unfinished but a small section is glued across the cowl sides and triangle stock is then added to the inside. The entire fuse and cowl top will be sanded to shape later once all the wing and stab alignment and installation is complete.

To be continued...

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Come together... right now... over me!

Although, not the sharpest of pictures, the following show the progress on the assembly process. Fuse bottom is roughly sanded to shape (not fine tuned yet), wings and stabs are joined (love the flat top wing!) and I'm proceeding to mount the wing followed by the stab.

... the crux of any pattern aircraft here's the moment of truth!

more to come soon...

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

On a quick weight update, I put the partly sanded model on the scale along with all the remaining pieces of wood and foam that will be required in the build.

Un-lightened airframe magic number = 16 oz or 1 lb exactly!

Swap some balsa dust for a little glue here and there and it looks like I'll come in right on target (well, hopefully on the lower side: 16-18 oz)! Wing and stab glassing remains to be done however.

Also, as a reminder to myself, I decided to shorten the movable rudder by 1/16" by cutting the fixed section off a touch higher. I felt that the, per scale, up-elevator clearance of 7/16" was potentially not enough (60 size provides 1/2" clearance and is the called for elevator throw) even though this is a looooong fuse! This should provide a margin of safety on full rates.

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Thanks Andy.

David, Carlos should take a look at the cowling you carved it sure looks nice !!
Think the plane will hit the skies this year ? :D just kidding keep it up and yes... come togheter...right now...and hit the sky

By the way I made a new fuse for the Tipo 10 with different anhedral for pipe under wing, was about to cut the stabs on the other one.
I decided to keep it that way, and build a new one, will put some pics on the thread of the tipo 10.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Rafa,

Yup! Carlos is exactly who I had in mind. Perhaps the photos will help.

At the moment the only thing able to hit the skies is a RR or P&W turbine sucking air in as if it were molasses!

We're sitting at -15C but for some reason it feels like -25C - must be the humidity (60%). Lipo's would probably head south after the first pass across the runway and glow heads tend to acquire an iridescent look reminiscent of Aurora Borealis!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sU6C...eature=related

I supoose with a pair of 5" arctic gloves you could push TX sticks around without much knowledge of whether they're centered or at full throw! :D

All this makes Spring quite sweet! I expect to shoot some HD footage of this baby when glow engines actually need to cool down rather than warm up! ;)

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Cool!

Well, if you have a new fuse and stabs, you might as well make another wing and fin! Then you can move your piped 15 over to the new model, put some F-15 retracts in it and convert the old one to electric! Just close up the engine cutout, make a hatch out of the bottom to swap batteries, drill out your FW, nose ring chin and fuse rear bottom to allow air to flow and remove the landing gear :D.

(If you're interested, you'll find a few details on the mods proposed for the electric Nanorare on my thread. Make sure you pick up a short prop high KV motor - even an in-runner might be a good idea.)

Then you can go to the field, hand your electric over to a buddy, and try coordinated opposite slow rolling passes - Hornet style!

David.

RE: Deception 10 Build Thread
 

Great picture, David. I hope to see that someday myself.

I'd LOVE some humidity right now. Outside it was up to 90% the other day, but only about 0F. When you bring that air inside and warm it up to 70 degrees, it feels bone dry. When I moved here (central Illinois) the locals were all complaining about the humidity but I had to start using Chap Stick, and it was July! Way too dry for me!

Man, I miss Winnabow sometimes.

Andy