RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

How about only having 2 c engines and retracts which were used back in the day?[>:]

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

I like retracts. I used them on all my pattern planes "back in the day". Of course, I only flew off hard runways then. With the lumpy "grass" (weeds?) fields we fly off now, I'm draggn' my tail. I think retracts would be a real problem on these rough surfaces.... bending, hanging up on the wheel wells, etc. Once you learn how to takeoff and land with a tail dragger, it's not a big problem. Yah... it doesn't look as cool, but it is simpler and generally sturdier, lighter, etc. 2-cycle engines..... I'm there!

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

I agree. It's not about training. It's about appearance. And if you use an authentic looking un lengthened tricycle gear, you pretty much need a 2-stroke engine turning an 11x7. If that gives you less vertical performance, accept it! ;)

Tom

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

As a purest, I dont like electric planes, but they should not have removed them from competing. What they need to do is look into class restructuring. I think they need a purest class and then the modernized class with the electrics and 4 strokes. What I would think would happen is you would get the best from both groups; because, they are not having to sacrifice something. The planes are not tech equal which means someone will always have something to gripe about eliminate the gripe. You will also see what planes competitors really want to fly instead of trying to fit in.

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

I like the idea of them trying to keep the SPA events more like the events of the past. we didn't have 60 size pattern electrics way back then. everyone had .60 or .61 engines.
Dropping retracts meant they wanted to go for airplanes before retracts became the popular rage. Tuned pipes the same thing. But you have to have a muffler nowadays even though way back then most everyone weren't using mufflers.
So I have no problem with it.

It would be like showing up at a antique car shot with your fully restored Ford Model T and you installed a modern electric motor and big battery pack in it. I don't think it would go over well with the antique car people.

The problem is some people get way too competitive and are always trying to push the rules to their advantage.
Before you know it you have to have a $10,000 pattern plane to be competitive.
At least this keeps the costs down.

But I think they should have dropped the 4 cycle engines too, as we didn't have any 4 cycle engines way back then. the little 4 cycles weren't out yet and the first ones were 20 size engines anyway.
Maybe even go for everyone using old style baffle plate engines without Schnuerle porting would even be better still.

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Maybe there should be a 3/4 scale F3A class, for performance minded folks. 60" wingspan taildraggers powered by .90 4-strokes or electric motors. They don't need to look like any plane from the past.

Nostalgics need not apply.

Tom

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Mike,

After seeing the way you flew your Ugly Stick at the Antique contest at Prattville, I'm not so sure about who will be thrashing whom! Also, remember that I bought some OS 91s out of sheer curiosity. I like to try new things and after being outpowered by the 91s I figured I'd try one out. So the Deception will get a 91 in its nose - but still with trike gear. In the 80s my Deceptions had 2-strokes, pipes, and retracts. So this will be a different beast. Not better, not worse - just different. And my long range plan is to do one with electric power, if only so that I can practice at our field in the mornings - glo power flying hours start at noon due to a noise restriction. And I'll still have the Compensator and Cutlass with the OS 55AXs in case I like them better. There are so many options to choose that it would be a shame to limit oneself to just a single one. They are all fun!

Cheers,

Jeff

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

I'm still curious as to how the old 70's pattern ships will respond when being powered by OS .55AX engines. I still think you, and others, over estimate their power. Now I'm speculating, so don't get in a huff. I'm trying to get some folks talking about their OS .55AX engines versus the old pattern engines they owned, such an OS .60F SR, Rossi .60, Webra .60 Speed, etc.


Ed Cregger

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Basically if you can keep the plane to 5lbs, the 55 on 15% nitro on a stock muffler and 12x6 prop, works great. My 55 has been in 2 pattern planes, the Era at 5lbs 5ozs and the Kaos at 5lbs 4ozs. The Era flies F3A with good power (not 2m power) and the Kaos can get out of it's own way, sometimes a little slow. I have a Nelson 'muffler' that I could add to it to get a few more R'sss but it's fine with the stock muffler. Is the 55 a 61... no. But the planes aren't going to be 8lbs either.

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Ed,

I'm using an OS 55 AX on my Compensator which weighs 6.5 lbs. I'm also using an 11x7 3-blade prop and running 20 % nitro. It has sufficient vertical for the Top Hat and Figure M maneuvers. It is hard to be precise in recalling patterns flown nearly 30 years ago, but I would say that the performance is comparable to what I got out of my 8 1/2 lb Deception with retracts running a piped Webra speed. My 8 1/2 lb Escape running a piped YS 61 Longstroke has better vertical, but not by a whole lot. So, I agree with Jason - the OS 55 AX does very well on a light airframe. As another data point, my 7 lb Cutlass did well in the Sportsman sequence which did not require extended vertical lines. It was actually better than the OS 61 FX I tried first, because the heavier 61 required a lot of weight in the tail. I actually reduced the all up weight by 1/2 lb by going to the 55 AX.

Jeff

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Jeff, I just finished my first 2 stroke SPA plane. ( Killer Kaos) I bought a new OS 61FX . Guess what? I found the plane to be really nose heavy even though I put the servos in the tail. The airframe is very light but I now have to cut out a hatch in the rear of the fuse and put a heavy battery to compensate. To say the least I am disappointed. I may still have to add some lead to the tail near the tail wheel. Now I know why you used the 55 instead. If it ever stops raining I'll find out how it flies. [:@] Skip

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Jeff - I've updated my photos of the Quik Fly III with engine placement photos etc. That 55 AX is sexy looking! What 'cha think Skip?
http://picasaweb.google.com/ShineyObject/QuikFlyIII#

Mike Robinson, SPA 70

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Ed,

I'm flying a 58" wingspan Tsunami with a .55AX and a 12 X 6 APC - it certainly hauls the freight. I'm building a Deception for my Webra Speed .61. I plan to try a 12 X 7 APC for starters. I'll let you know how they compare.

Greg

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Mike,

You are right - that's a good looking installation!

Jeff

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

I also have an OS 61FX. We tend to forget that this engine also sees service as a .91. It has to be heavier than our old 10cc engines to do that.

Thanks to everyone for their replies concerning comparisons of the OS .55AX to other period accurate pattern engines. If the OS .55AX is in the same ballpark as the Webra Speed .61 on a pipe, then I am really impressed. My old Dykes ring equipped Webra Speed .61 was pretty strong on a pipe.

Maybe I'll get lucky and Santa will assemble one of my Tower Kaos' for me, using one of the two OS .55AX that I own. For the class I intend to fly in, I don't really need anything fancier than that.


Ed Cregger

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Except you need more than one battery if you don't want to spend more time waiting to charge. And for competition it may not be charged for the next flight. Not to mention battery replacements, maybe a couple a year if it were just one battery pack. Or maybe I just have bad luck on the few electrics I have tried.

Besides, you can get a good .61 two stroke for less than 200, and I get or mix my fuel a lot less than $18. Ok I haven't been flying in a while, but it was less than $16 when I looked in the store a few months ago.

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

I have not competed in SPA, but if and or when I do it will likely start by going to the one in Dallas, Georgia just 4 miles from my home. I kinda like to think my equipment is about on par with those willing to travel and spend money on a hotel.

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

.

One can do the same with a Magnum to keep costs down. Actually after blueprinting a Magnum might be equal to an OS.

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Classic pattern planes had nose gear back then because almost nobody used tailgear except maybe scale. Goes back to the old reed sets, harder to fly a taildragger on those. There were a few taildragging pattern planes beginning in the mid 70's. Few and far between, but they slowly gained acceptance.

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Only on very windy days.

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

:D:DI like I like !!! Skip

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Everyone;

I've been reading the responses up to now, and feel we need to take a step back, and try to put everything in focus regarding this particular decision made at this particular time.

If you look at the BOD director's decision, and Mickey's own response on the Discussion List explaining why he feels as he does, you will see there is no organized animosity to electrics per se', the BOD's decision is a way to deal with the escalating rhetoric on the Discussion List that had gotten nasty to the point where heated exchanges and even threats were exchanged. The BOD had attempted several times to try to reconcile the different positions and compromised more than once in order to try to bring about a general consensus for dealing with the electric issue in 2010, but the verbal exchanges continued. Remember 2009 was the first year we had electrics of any number in competition, and it looks like the number are on the increase for 2010, so this problem has now come to a "head". An an easy, (translated "eyeball" method), had to be found to satisfy everyone at a glance that any plane, (regardless of power source) would be competitive, and no safisfactory method could not be found. The conversation was not kept civil, and heated exchanges resulted.

An additional factor complicated the matter...the fact that electrics don't have "flameouts", and thus are more reliable was also a consideration that gave many, (including myself), the definite impression they had a competitive advantage over IC. In the end nobody was really satisfied with the methods discussed to regulate electrics, and a simple eyeball method wasn't found in the "verbally charged" climate at the time. The agitation among factions continued to build to a point where it was becoming destructive to the organization. The ban was a way to STOP THE MADNESS and SNIPING for the upcoming year....had there been no escalation of rhetoric and "flamethrowing", electrics would have competed in SPA in 2010.

The BOD was not against allowing electrics to compete, (specific mention of them is in the rules), but there was no satisfactory simple way found, to regulate them to everyones satisfaction. The SPA mentality is against the idea of having to police their membership; we basically want to show up and fly with an equally level field. It's easy to see by "eyeballing" to see if someone has more than a .61 or ,91 FS....it's not so easy to see what's inside the electrics without subjecting all of them to further testing, no matter how simple, it is contrary to the laid back method of "policing" we have had in the past. Electrics are simply more difficult to regulate right now.

My own personal feeling is that as things "simmer down", and rational thinking takes over, a means will eventually be found to incorporate a simple "EYEBALL" method to determine that ALL planes are simple, competitive, and inexpensive, which is what SPA really is all about. It is unfortunate that such a drastic measure needed to be put in place, but SPA wanted to avoid the prolonged infighting that happened last time when 4-strokes were introduced due to noise restrictions at Knoxville back in the late '90s.

It is hoped that electric-leaning guys will bear with us for the upcoming season as this issue gets discussed in a more rational, lower key manner.

Duane

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Duane

Is correct electrics don't flame out as I.C. motors do!!! When they go they FLAMEAWAY catching on fire and burning to the ground. Actually its most impressive as when the lithium goes, I have seen it several times even at contests, it goes until nothings left. A definite competitive advantage?[X(][X(][X(][X(][X(][X(]


gary

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

H9 better hurry up with that P7 ARF. I was building an electric King Altair, but no go for the 2010 year in SPA. I'm not upset, just have to change directions. No big deal. Has anyone heard anything on the release, or order date for the H9 P7 ARF....

Thanks Kevin...

Duane, I was starting to worry about you. Have not seen or heard from you in a while. Great to see your sill here.

RE: Electric's Phased Out of SPA
 

Duane, All you say to rationalize the SPA BOD electric decision is well and good but the fact remains that myself and several others now have several hundred dollasrs in planes, motors, and batteries that were legal to fly in SPA contest during 2009 and before that are now illegal in 2010. It's never a good thing change rules such that previously legal planes are now no longer legal. All this because a bunch of grown men couldn't come to an agreement in an adult manner. Too bad for flyers, too bad for the organization, and too bad for the BOD.

Also, I'd like to correct you about electrics not having flame outs.! I didn't get to complete one of my rounds in Asheville due to the ESC shutting down the motor because I was flying a battery with a bad cell and didn't realize it untill I put it back on the charger. It's been my experience so far in electrics that the power systems are no more reliable than glow setups. Bad stuff still happens.
Dave Burton