gunfighter

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DonStegall

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I knew this day was coming, but I was hoping it would be a little longer.

We need to keep it fun, but we may need to put a tighter set of rules together to control technology creep. Since I have been in contact with a large number of the groups and people that are flying Club 40, I will take on the task of identifying areas that may need regulation. And my end result will be presented as a Request For Comments (RFC). I will start the process by listing some of the issues that I know about. And I will pose some questions.

To streamline the text, a few terms will be abbreviated:

SRM2 - Sky Raider Mach II
LR40 - LA Racer 40

The engine compartment sides (cheeks?) of the SRM2 are an area begging for enhancement and controversy. They vibrate, and they sometimes flutter at speed. Plus they can break if banged significantly. Some groups allow a piece of wood or other material to join them. At least one person has added doublers to them. I don’t think either method is a speed enhancement. In fact, both could slow the plane down. But techniques could be used to reduce any speed penalty and therefore could enhance the performance. I think it is important to not allow rounding the edges significantly. Removing the cheeks could possibly be a speed improvement. I think that they must be in place at the start of a race. Reattaching them during an event will probably not hold up to flight conditions. I think a pre-event inspection may be required.

The landing gear block assembly has broken out of some planes. Repairing the damage will most likely not result in exactly the same configuration, especially if the original parts are lost or are too broken to reuse. One repair I saw shifted the gear forward a quarter to half inch. The SRM2 and LR40 use struts with the same mounting configuration and are interchangeable. The landing gear on the SRM2 is shorter than the LR40 gear. I personally have used a LR40 gear on a SRM2 because it gives more ground clearance. Another person has used a landing gear made from flat aluminum stock. I doubt if he used the stock wheels because he used Dubro American size axles. Lost wheels will most likely be something other than stock wheels. We will probably need to specify a minimum diameter and width if substitute wheels are allowed.

ARF tanks are often not available at the local hobby shop. People tend to replace ARF tanks, especially with use and development of leaks, with off the shelf tanks. And there is the issue of bladder tanks. Some would argue that bladder tanks improve performance, and unless homemade, they add significantly to the cost of the aircraft.

The spinner used could affect performance. Some will prefer to use a smaller spinner or prop nut. Some will want to use a larger spinner. I personally have replaced some spinners with aluminum spinners.

SRM2 and LR40 wings are interchangeable. The dual aileron servos on a LR40 wing are exposed and may have more drag. Using a SRM2 wing on a LR40 could provide an advantage. An LR40 wing on a SRM2 would probably provide no advantage. A local guy busted his SRM2 wing and I had a LR40 wing with one little dent. Is it ok for him to use a LR40 wing on a SRM2?

Sealing the gaps of control surfaces, or using gap/hinge seal tape is another issue.

Does the amount of dihedral in the wing need to be checked?

At least one local guy trimmed the bottom of his rudder so he could get more elevator throw. This modification was for better aerobatic capability, but could it have a benefit in a race? The only thing it seems to do is allow better snaps.

I replace the control horns with Dubro horns and I use Great Planes nylon clevises on 2-56 pushrods. I also push out the wing mounting blind nuts and replace the wing bolts with 1/4-20 nylon bolts. Is hardware substitution an issue?

averen

The majority of things listed above don't really cause concerns with me...personally I think the following should be allowed:
1 - Adding more throw - shouldn't help or hurt you in a race, in all honesty it will probably hurt more than it helps. But these planes are fun to fly even when you're not turning left and going fast, so I don't have a problem with people modding this if it helps them enjoy the aerobatics aspect of the plane.
2 - Changing out the wheels - I agree that there should be diameter and thickness rules. But for me if I change them out it will be with something better than the foam (treaded rubber), and about the same size...no pizza cutter wheels should be allowed...
3 - Changing out the LG struts - I don't see this as being an advantage or disadvantage. Aluminum brackets will probably add more weight and cause more drag than the provided wire struts. Obviously no retracts.
3 - Hardware changes - control horns and clevises as well as pushrods should be allowed to change...provided that the airframe doesn't need to be altered (ie - no pull-pull cable setups). I don't really see carbon rods dropping that much weight over the stock hardware, especially when you only have 2 that are decently long...what would you gain? Maybe 10grams? The hardware in these is as better or at least as good as most ARFs that I have built, I didn't change out any of mine, with the exception of 2 of the horns on the ailerons, and that was just because the stock threaded piece didn't fit the rod on the horn!

I think checking dihedral is going overboard a little. It would take a good amount of time to change the dihedral of the wing, and I doubt that anyone would really go to such lengths with these models...but I guess you never know!

Bladder tanks do have certain performance advantages, I'm not sure how much, so I can't comment on outlawing them or not, but if we're following the "build as stock" rules, then I would think that these would be out since they are performance enhancing, and are generally out of the "norm" as far as what a novice would do.

It seems perfectly acceptable to enforce the nose on the SRM2 if flutter is a problem.

Well, that's it for now, I should probably get back to work.

Jared

gunfighter

My Feedback: (1)

deleted

DonStegall

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Chuck,

I actually typed that message weeks ago. I waited until now to share it.

I agree with your assessment of the "mods".

We definitely need to keep it simple and fun. But having a specification that controls creep may not be a bad thing.

In terms of the landing gear, The World Models is addressing that with a block and process change. They do not want to change the landing gear. In fact I asked for the SRM2 to get the LR40 gear because it gives more. But that idea was not accepted due to a possibility of confusion.

averen

From my experience I see changing the gear on the LR40 to the gear on the SRM2 as more of a safety feature. On the side with the cracked spar there was no indication that the wheel had come into contact with it If I would have flown like that the results could have been very bad. It's possible that with the SRM2 gear that the block would have been torn out again, but I would rather have that happen than be racing with a cracked spar that I didn't even know about.

Jared

stand-RCU

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HighPlains

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I've got 18 oz tettra tanks.

stand-RCU

I knew they had 580 cc (20 oz) clunk tanks, but I wasn't aware of 520 CC bladder ones.

Stan

DonStegall

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I should have posted my rules/specification message in a new thread for that discussion.

Please pardon my misstep. I will create a new thread for that discussion so the "Hangout" can remain just that.

gunfighter

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daven

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If the allowed and Not allowed mods are not written down in the rules gray errors will develop and arguements will insue down the road.

I would strongly suggest that a handle be gotten on it early.

stand-RCU

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gunfighter

My Feedback: (1)

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SAPropbuster

My Feedback: (5)

I had such a terrible flutter problem with my SRM2 that I HAD to seal the hinges... I also installed blocks between the cheeks and the engine mount to stabilize them... Are these speed modifications that will keep me from racing?

Bob Severance

crashsiegel

Stock should mean stock.
The idea with Club 40 is to have fun and to involve new folks (new blood - IMPORTANT!).
Some of these new folks will not have years of experience to help them make mods.
So keep it simple is best.

I do agree replacing the spinner may be a good idea.
Replacing the wheels with smaller/thinner wheels must be a no-no.
Reinforcing the wheel block in the Mach 2 is necessary - changin with the other plane, that's a mod, in my opinion.
Mods to the nose should not be allowed becuase then I could cowl in the nose...
Some minor replacement of hardware (usually SAE for the metric) should be ok. If I lose a 3mm wing bolt, it wil be time for SAE nutplate and nylon bolts.
I would think that swapping wings is a no-no under the stock rule.
No opinion on bladder tanks.
Sealing hinge gaps - if it doesn't make it go faster, why bother...? Rule it out so there is no fuss at race time.

Why if you allow lots of mods, someone could show up with an electric Raider! Then what? []
Crash
P.S. For those you don't know me, my other handle is "E-Flight Fanatic". And yes, I do have an electric Mach 2. It's been judged not fast enough to compete. YET!! Just wait...

averen

Sorry if I'm speaking out of turn here...but this is getting out of hand.

The idea is to keep everything a level playing field. Many people like to tweak their planes and will want to add "something" no matter what they get. I can see this turning into a slippery slope both ways.
1 - You allow absolutely no "mods"
2 - It's open season on "mods"

Both of these are going to hurt the turn out of people that want to race and just have fun. There needs to be some sort of middle ground as to what is allowed and what is not allowed. Saying "planes must be built stock" is fairly open to interpretation...what is "stock" after all. I would consider a 100% stock plane to only use the parts that come in the box. That means no matter what, "safety" reasons or not, you cannot alter the plane...if you break something, you buy it to replace it. This way seems unfair as does allowing absolutely any modification to be done to the airframe. If this is the case then I'm out since I've changed my landing gear because it was bent up...and I decided to make it "better."

A lot of the novice guys aren't going to want to spend a lot of time tweaking every aspect of the plane so that it's 100% streamlined, and if this were the case, we would probably want to consider different planes but there are other people (myself and I'm sure others) that would like to do small modifications that don't affect the speed of the plane. For instance, using bladder tanks, putting on a different spinner, changing out to better-than-foam landing gear, adding toothpicks or whatever to reinforce the landing gear.

In short I personally don't have a problem with some modifications, but they need to be simple enough that everyone can do them that wants to. Popping on a new spinner is pretty easy, changing out the wheels takes 5 minutes. Reinforcing the landing gear is a must. Changing to SAE bolts, well, that's personal preference, I fly helis too so I have an ample supply of metric bolts and tools...I change everything TO metric

It needs to stay competitive, but it needs to be pilot skill. And saying no to all mods will turn some people off, saying yes to all mods will turn some people off.

Jared

js3

My Feedback: (3)

I have to agree with Stan 100%. If you're not going to allow me to race because I've monocoted the bottom of my control surface gaps then I want no part of your race.

Every model airplane should have sealed control surfaces! It's a safety issue. For that matter, it should be in the AMA safety code.

gunfighter

My Feedback: (1)

Jared - You are definately NOT speaking out of turn.

Druce

This is a great conversation "The evolution of Club 40" May the competition begin..

averen

I've got my stick and some rocks to throw

8 days and counting!

Jared

Max_Power

I think as important as what the rules are , is that they are well documented and solidly upkept. I stand pretty much in the moderate areas on most ideas mentioned. I think spinner,hardware,landing gear,etc options should be allowed. I think I would approve of most things safety oriented(although that one is easy to stretch sometimes), or that add to the "servicability" of the plane(cheap repair with generic parts/hardware/ moving a tailwheel because screw holes srtipped..besides for wheels I don't see how any "landable" gear could be sleeker than stock,etc). I personally wouldnt go for things like hinge line modification, as IMHO it does have a effect on how the wing works and its efficiency, as proven in full scale aircraft designs, But if it were allowed I would still race. I think the most important thing is to have the rules well documented and enforced. Rules are rules.., And if its on the paper I'm fine abiding by it.. What causes issues is "interpretation of the rules", ours are like 5 simple text lines. They need to be written and thourogh so we can use it as a guidebook and leave interpretation and personal feelings out of it. I know this a a friendly "club" event.., but theres no way to take the competition out of any kind of racing. Todd

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Stan,

Here's a low tech tip for stopping the tight turn climbing tendency. A 1/4 ounce piece of stick-on balancing weight on the left wingtip will do the trick. No mixing required.

Wow, what a day.

Good modeling techniques are a challenge to regulate. I too use mixing tricks to make my planes fly better. It could be said that guys with computer radios have an advantage. Dual rates and expo are very nice to have with any plane, including the Club 40 planes. I forgot to put expo on ailerons on one I set up recently and I thought something was wrong with the plane until I realized what I had done and fixed it. A plain 4 channel radio can do the job, but getting the right throws and getting the plane dialed in takes more time and effort.

One of the things I love about R/C is that people come up with innovative solutions to the little issues involved in putting a plane together. It is the creativeness that constantly impresses me about the ways different people approach the challenges.

Unless we try to be IROC, we will not have identical planes of identical performance. And even those guys talk about "their" car being good or bad on a particular track on a particular day. And they do everything they can to equalize the cars.

There is a difference between a "Spec" class and a "Stock" class. What this turns out to be in the end, we will see.

But the bottom line is that people are getting involved in [link=http://www.rcpro.org/html/rules/club_40/club_40.htm]Club 40 Racing[/link], and they are having fun. We just have to make sure it stays that way.

dwbebens

It looks like everyone posting here on this subject is basically in agreement. I think it could be said that most of us want to reduce the possibility of speed creep due to "inch-worming" the rules. The rules need to clearly specify, as an irrevocable principle, that there are to be NO speed enhancing modifications to either the airframe or engine. Again, the basic principle to be adhered to is that there be NO speed enhancing modifications to the airframe or engine. Any durability, or safety enhancing modifications which do not enhance speed should, of course, be allowed. Other allowed mods should include what are called "good building practices"; so long as they don't enhance speed. It is the job of the CD to see that both the letter of the rules and the intent of the rules are being followed. It is also the job of each contestant to see that his airplane follows the intent of the rules.

It's good that we're having this discussion so soon in the life of this event. It shows that everyone is well aware of what can happen and has happened in the past, and that they are wary of it happening to Club 40 racing. I am very encourage by this discussion.

Doug Bebensee

Ken Erickson

Seems this discussion is all Texas people, except for the calm voice of Florida Doug. Most of the Texas voices probably believe they are also calm. Missunderestandings can happen very easily on these forums. (As well as misssspellings)

Each hosting club has a representative on the committee. The rules actually made by the committee are on the poster. Newer people do not know who is on the committee.

At the April race, the committee list will be given out.

The basic principal of this was to have fun. The guideline was and is, " Anything done to increase the speed of the airplane is not in the spirit of the event." Conversely, if something has no effect on speed, "Why not?" Most of us really can differentiate.

Let's not assume that your ideas are not acceptable. Get them to your representative and have them bring these things up at the meeting to be held after we have held the April race. The ideas put forth here will be on the agenda, with others, just as has been the case in the past.

Thanks,

Ken Erickson