AMA and the World Drone Championchips in Hawaii.
10-21-2016, 06:41 AM
#51
If you missed this it's because you weren't really looking for my answer , you quickly skimmed my post looking for me to say that I think it's all fine and well unless it applies to drones , so that you could attack that point .....
BUT !
I said what I said and it means what it means , I have long been concerned since way back when when the whole "sponsored pilot" thing went beyond the manufacturers giving a few freebies for a bit of product placement advertising to actually hiring the pilot *. Prize money OTOH has always been fine with me no matter the aircraft type since winning is not an assured thing and thus no pre arrainged contract for payment was made . You win the event you take the money . Now from at least one post to this thread it sure sounded to me like at least some pilots were being paid for their presence at this event . Even if the payments are to cover expenses only and don't result in actual profit for the pilot , isn't the very act of the company sponsors paying for their attendance of the event a commercial transaction since the company is paying money and receiving advertising exposure in return ?
* And yes Porcia , in case you somehow got THIS far and still missed it , my concern of this predates both multicopters and FPV !
BUT !
I said what I said and it means what it means , I have long been concerned since way back when when the whole "sponsored pilot" thing went beyond the manufacturers giving a few freebies for a bit of product placement advertising to actually hiring the pilot *. Prize money OTOH has always been fine with me no matter the aircraft type since winning is not an assured thing and thus no pre arrainged contract for payment was made . You win the event you take the money . Now from at least one post to this thread it sure sounded to me like at least some pilots were being paid for their presence at this event . Even if the payments are to cover expenses only and don't result in actual profit for the pilot , isn't the very act of the company sponsors paying for their attendance of the event a commercial transaction since the company is paying money and receiving advertising exposure in return ?
* And yes Porcia , in case you somehow got THIS far and still missed it , my concern of this predates both multicopters and FPV !
Matts comments more than others prove that point. He's suddenly categorized these ama members as commercial pilots because they get prize money. He won't dare comment on the mcconville or Landis comparison for obvious uncomfortable reasons....they would also fall into that category. Nonetheless, I doubt it's ever going to be an issue for the FAA or the AMA (who have already spelled that out), rather it will continue to be point or discussion here, which is fine too, here in the land of non AMA topics.
10-21-2016, 07:20 AM
#52
Anyway , yes indeed this has been something I've wondered about since before the MR / FPV days and as time goes on it seems the closeness keeps getting , closer .....
10-21-2016, 07:26 AM
#53
PS , please remember that right now it is me , and not Matt , that you are addressing . Matt is a great guy with his own opinions that i'm sure he'd be happy to discuss with you , but for my part in this yes sir this "commercialization" has been on my radar since , like I said earlier , the "sponsored pilot" went from receiving a few freebies to get the advertising exposure to actual employees .
Thank You .
Thank You .
10-22-2016, 04:26 AM
#54
PS , please remember that right now it is me , and not Matt , that you are addressing . Matt is a great guy with his own opinions that i'm sure he'd be happy to discuss with you , but for my part in this yes sir this "commercialization" has been on my radar since , like I said earlier , the "sponsored pilot" went from receiving a few freebies to get the advertising exposure to actual employees .
Thank You .
Thank You .
10-22-2016, 04:33 AM
#55
Another update from the event. For anyone hyper focused on spotter spotting, might want to go through the video more than once. I think I saw at least one, maybe two. I'm actually going to suggest to the AMA that spotters should be designated going forward with orange hats, or flags etc. Couldn't help but notice a lot of pilots in the different shots, those folks that Mike continues to say don't exist, but Matt says do exist as that is their job. So confusing!
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/3...t-kualoa-ranch
And Pirker made a showing too...
http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/3...t-kualoa-ranch
And Pirker made a showing too...
10-22-2016, 04:34 AM
#56
Mike MCconville flying for Horizon is exactly who first drew my attention to the closeness issue and it's funny you mention him . I was thinking of using him as my example of when I first wondered about the closeness but I wasn't sure if it was OK to mention him here . Now before anyone gets any wrong notions I have no problem with guys like Mike and QQ and even trappy too making a living from RC and I would have to imagine they are themselves carrying insurance beyond the AMA insurance to protect themselves while flying RC commercially . But what of the not quite as well known sponsored pilots , by being sponsored isn't that commercial and if the AMA is their only insurance doesn't our insurance exclude commercial use ?
Anyway , yes indeed this has been something I've wondered about since before the MR / FPV days and as time goes on it seems the closeness keeps getting , closer .....
Anyway , yes indeed this has been something I've wondered about since before the MR / FPV days and as time goes on it seems the closeness keeps getting , closer .....
10-23-2016, 12:38 PM
#57
Mike MCconville flying for Horizon is exactly who first drew my attention to the closeness issue and it's funny you mention him . I was thinking of using him as my example of when I first wondered about the closeness but I wasn't sure if it was OK to mention him here . Now before anyone gets any wrong notions I have no problem with guys like Mike and QQ and even trappy too making a living from RC and I would have to imagine they are themselves carrying insurance beyond the AMA insurance to protect themselves while flying RC commercially . But what of the not quite as well known sponsored pilots , by being sponsored isn't that commercial and if the AMA is their only insurance doesn't our insurance exclude commercial use ?
Anyway , yes indeed this has been something I've wondered about since before the MR / FPV days and as time goes on it seems the closeness keeps getting , closer .....
Anyway , yes indeed this has been something I've wondered about since before the MR / FPV days and as time goes on it seems the closeness keeps getting , closer .....
10-23-2016, 01:45 PM
#58
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Hey kids bottom line here the AMA has Zero to do with the event in Hawaii. All the rest of this is meaningless.
The thread is about.
"AMA and the World Drone Championchips in Hawaii."
Mike
The thread is about.
"AMA and the World Drone Championchips in Hawaii."
Mike
10-23-2016, 03:29 PM
#59
Well I know they were involved at the nationals event on Governors Island in August. They made them change part of the course because it was not safe for spectators.
Not sure what level of involvement they had at the world event in Hawaii.
A member of our MultiGP group qualified in the wing category ,raced and is on his way back from Hawaii . I'll ask him when I see him.
Not sure what level of involvement they had at the world event in Hawaii.
A member of our MultiGP group qualified in the wing category ,raced and is on his way back from Hawaii . I'll ask him when I see him.
10-24-2016, 03:33 AM
#60
Hey kids bottom line here the AMA has Zero to do with the event in Hawaii. All the rest of this is meaningless.
The thread is about.
"AMA and the World Drone Championchips in Hawaii."
Mike
The thread is about.
"AMA and the World Drone Championchips in Hawaii."
Mike
Here's a thread you were in 42 times that had nothing to do with the AMA, guess the report button wasn't hit on this one. Ironically the longest running open and active thread in the AMA forums:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/ama-...oes-again.html
There's about 10 more in the AMA forums on the first 3 pages that have nothing to do with the AMA in case anyone else is suddenly interested in thread and forum purity.
10-24-2016, 03:34 AM
#61
Well I know they were involved at the nationals event on Governors Island in August. They made them change part of the course because it was not safe for spectators.
Not sure what level of involvement they had at the world event in Hawaii.
A member of our MultiGP group qualified in the wing category ,raced and is on his way back from Hawaii . I'll ask him when I see him.
Not sure what level of involvement they had at the world event in Hawaii.
A member of our MultiGP group qualified in the wing category ,raced and is on his way back from Hawaii . I'll ask him when I see him.
11-01-2016, 04:28 AM
#62
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Well I know they were involved at the nationals event on Governors Island in August. They made them change part of the course because it was not safe for spectators.
Not sure what level of involvement they had at the world event in Hawaii.
A member of our MultiGP group qualified in the wing category ,raced and is on his way back from Hawaii . I'll ask him when I see him.
Not sure what level of involvement they had at the world event in Hawaii.
A member of our MultiGP group qualified in the wing category ,raced and is on his way back from Hawaii . I'll ask him when I see him.
"The lack of organization during the racing event was apparent to all involved. Tempers flared and frustrations from multiple countries were voiced directly to DSA. It was clear to all that DSA had not planned anything including equipment, staff, racing rules, a live-feed, facilities or anything that would've made this event run smoothly. It should be remembered that DSA isn't just Scot Refsland but also Tim Nilson (owner of GetFPV) whom was in attendance and provided zero direction or help when it was clear that the event was floundering. Nilson was even recorded actively trying to distance himself from DSA. The fact is that he should bear responsibilty for this disaster as he was warned of the lack of planning prior to the event and chose to do nothing."
Here are some of the issues noted and voiced by pilots:
- Even though the best pilots in the world are competing, they desire and deserve practice time on the course. It is difficult to achieve perfection in racing especially when forced to qualify and practice at the same time. No warm up laps were provided. Why does the schedule not include practice time?
- World Drone Championships should have a world class track and DSA failed to deliver. The scenery of Hawaii was breath-taking. Why not take advantage of the landscape and include it in the course?
- There were a number of unhappy countries and pilots that only 32 racers would advance to semi-finals. It was proposed that the top 64 pilots advance into a single elimination race rather than 32 in double elimination. The DSA waffled and tried having the pilots vote. Eventually DSA decided to stick with their original plan of a 32 double elimination race. Surely this should've been thought of prior to the event? You'd think they would've learned after their terrible performance at the USA Nationals.
- Multiple racers reported rolling video causing crashes and the inability to spot upcoming gates and maneuvers. Two days prior at the Aloha Cup, pilots were raving about video perfection! Since they were only using one track, 200 milliwatt video was being used, giving all pilots equal advantage, truly allowing the race to be judged on pilot skill. Since two tracks were in use at the start of Worlds, 25 milliwatt video was required. Since DSA discontinued the short track racing, 200 milliwatt video should have been used. However, DSA chose not to convert the system back to 200 milliwatt.
- During Group B qualifications on Friday, the timing system failed and no back-up system was available. So, the judges hand timed their racer using a cellphone. In a sport were every millisecond counts, cellphone timing is unacceptable. There is no room for human error in timing at a world competition. It begs the question...are the two sets of times (Thursday, Group A times with timing system and Friday, Group B times with cellphones) comparable?
- Every heat, the DSA had to call for judges to come to the pilot tent. This is one of the most critical pieces to racing – judges who have knowledge of drone racing and understand the maneuvers required for the course. The judges should not be friends and family members of the racers who have nothing to do. Their eyes need to be trained for FPV maneuvers and technique instead of simply making sure the drone crosses the finish line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QuhZl-tXo8
Apparently it didn't go so smooth according to this article.
Mike
11-01-2016, 08:46 AM
#63
"Nilson was even recorded actively trying to distance himself from DSA. The fact is that he should bear responsibilty for this disaster as he was warned of the lack of planning prior to the event and chose to do nothing."
It sounds as if this Nilson fellow has some answering to do if it's correct that he dropped the ball as badly as this statement makes it sound . Drone racing may be something new but the proper planning and of running a well run RC model aircraft event is certainly nothing new , and the article makes it sound as if some fairly obvious things were overlooked , most noteworthy being the indecision of what form the eliminations would take .
It sounds as if this Nilson fellow has some answering to do if it's correct that he dropped the ball as badly as this statement makes it sound . Drone racing may be something new but the proper planning and of running a well run RC model aircraft event is certainly nothing new , and the article makes it sound as if some fairly obvious things were overlooked , most noteworthy being the indecision of what form the eliminations would take .
11-01-2016, 08:59 AM
#64
https://www.hobbynews.com/articles/d...016?viewmode=0
"The lack of organization during the racing event was apparent to all involved. Tempers flared and frustrations from multiple countries were voiced directly to DSA. It was clear to all that DSA had not planned anything including equipment, staff, racing rules, a live-feed, facilities or anything that would've made this event run smoothly. It should be remembered that DSA isn't just Scot Refsland but also Tim Nilson (owner of GetFPV) whom was in attendance and provided zero direction or help when it was clear that the event was floundering. Nilson was even recorded actively trying to distance himself from DSA. The fact is that he should bear responsibilty for this disaster as he was warned of the lack of planning prior to the event and chose to do nothing."
Here are some of the issues noted and voiced by pilots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QuhZl-tXo8
Apparently it didn't go so smooth according to this article.
Mike
"The lack of organization during the racing event was apparent to all involved. Tempers flared and frustrations from multiple countries were voiced directly to DSA. It was clear to all that DSA had not planned anything including equipment, staff, racing rules, a live-feed, facilities or anything that would've made this event run smoothly. It should be remembered that DSA isn't just Scot Refsland but also Tim Nilson (owner of GetFPV) whom was in attendance and provided zero direction or help when it was clear that the event was floundering. Nilson was even recorded actively trying to distance himself from DSA. The fact is that he should bear responsibilty for this disaster as he was warned of the lack of planning prior to the event and chose to do nothing."
Here are some of the issues noted and voiced by pilots:
- Even though the best pilots in the world are competing, they desire and deserve practice time on the course. It is difficult to achieve perfection in racing especially when forced to qualify and practice at the same time. No warm up laps were provided. Why does the schedule not include practice time?
- World Drone Championships should have a world class track and DSA failed to deliver. The scenery of Hawaii was breath-taking. Why not take advantage of the landscape and include it in the course?
- There were a number of unhappy countries and pilots that only 32 racers would advance to semi-finals. It was proposed that the top 64 pilots advance into a single elimination race rather than 32 in double elimination. The DSA waffled and tried having the pilots vote. Eventually DSA decided to stick with their original plan of a 32 double elimination race. Surely this should've been thought of prior to the event? You'd think they would've learned after their terrible performance at the USA Nationals.
- Multiple racers reported rolling video causing crashes and the inability to spot upcoming gates and maneuvers. Two days prior at the Aloha Cup, pilots were raving about video perfection! Since they were only using one track, 200 milliwatt video was being used, giving all pilots equal advantage, truly allowing the race to be judged on pilot skill. Since two tracks were in use at the start of Worlds, 25 milliwatt video was required. Since DSA discontinued the short track racing, 200 milliwatt video should have been used. However, DSA chose not to convert the system back to 200 milliwatt.
- During Group B qualifications on Friday, the timing system failed and no back-up system was available. So, the judges hand timed their racer using a cellphone. In a sport were every millisecond counts, cellphone timing is unacceptable. There is no room for human error in timing at a world competition. It begs the question...are the two sets of times (Thursday, Group A times with timing system and Friday, Group B times with cellphones) comparable?
- Every heat, the DSA had to call for judges to come to the pilot tent. This is one of the most critical pieces to racing – judges who have knowledge of drone racing and understand the maneuvers required for the course. The judges should not be friends and family members of the racers who have nothing to do. Their eyes need to be trained for FPV maneuvers and technique instead of simply making sure the drone crosses the finish line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QuhZl-tXo8
Apparently it didn't go so smooth according to this article.
Mike
There were weather and logistical hurdles with the races on Governor's Island as well. Those involved rolled with it, just as they did this event, and no doubt will at future events. Only the detractors from the sidelines will continue to hiss and wag their fingers. The process is basically a year old and far more complex than the standard fun fly....but ya, let's focus on the negative. What's that saying....LOL.
Wonder how many of the pilots who flew were part of the AMA's largest and most popular SIg, MultiGp.
11-01-2016, 12:05 PM
#66
But...on another issue....this events coming up just around the corner.
http://<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/mW2uYVquFDI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Brian it would be fantastic if your buddy attends this and is able to give us the feet on the street perspective
I mean honestly, can you hardly believe the location? As if Hawaii wasn't breathtaking enough. Just look at this place! Maybe Matt and his turbine jet jocks can look into renting this place out for an event, or the commercial venture called the Tuscon ShootOut can move their operations to this place. Bet they could get some tax breaks! All the more to spend on pilots.
Hopefully we'll get some reports on how this event went, warts and all. I seem to recall the complaints about NALL not that long ago that went on for weeks and weeks and weeks about how poorly the line was managed, how unsafe it was to have all these planes flying at once, no separation for the scale and 3D planes, etc etc. If I'm not mistaken it even involved some mid airs! Oh no! How long has NALL been around, you would have thought they had everything ironed out at this point eh? LOL.
