Ducted Fan Dan

My Feedback: (2)

GET CONTROL OF YOUR CLUB!

You are an officer. If someone has blatant disregard for club policy, BAN them. Put them on probation. Suspend their privlages. I don't care if they deliberately fly over the pits or randomly plant unapproved grass, both cases are blatant disregard for policy. If enough people vote for the movement it can be approved. Likewise, lifetime memberships can be revoked with board approval. If you vote to suspend their privilages and they show up at the field, call the police and have them escorted off for trespassing. You have options, if you want something done, make it happen. Quit pu$$yfooting around. If I went to the field and planted grass and no one knew about it, I'd be tossed, at least for the season. If it is truly a problem in the majorities eyes then, majority rules. If not, it is your job as an officer to rally support and get the votes to get something done. If calling the police sounds too harsh, then club members planting grass at will must not be that big of a deal.

bbbair

Well John;

I think that you are in a great position just now. It’s all just a matter of how you look at it, let’s recap the situation;
Way ward individuals have defied the club’s decision and spent their own money to buy the wrong product and install it in the wrong place.

I’m going to go with the majority of previous posts here, DO NOT REIMBURSE these people for their expenses. Explain it to them in detail as to why etc.

Your plan (the club’s) has not changed, be sure that the offending parties know this. Now go out with the club’s money ($600.00) and buy the right grass seed and plant it in the correct spot.

Water and tend to your grass, theirs is not in your way and is of no concern to the club.

They will get the hint – sooner or later.
The only way that this will fail is if the club caves in and pays their bills, at this point you now have the concensus of the club to go out and form a new club- the decision will have beeen made for you...

FHHuber

Problem... if the club bylaws don't provide for a means of punitive/disciplinary action... AND/OR if you do it in any way different from the bylaws... then you are going to get yourself and the club into a lawsuit.

Check the bylaws before banning someone or putting them on probation. Be sure you do things by the book.

Ducted Fan Dan

My Feedback: (2)

You can vote in any bylaws you want.

Majority rules.

mulligan

John, I've got good news and bad news...

If you are an officer of the club, you should know two things:

1) The AMA now requires a copy of your by-laws, which MUST include a procedure for removal of members.

2) If you are incorporated (I assume you are), then officers and board members are indemnified from liabilities of the club... UNLESS the officer does not act in the capacity of his position (the language of this varies from state to state, so look up your state's particular language on the net).

So, to echo a sentiment expressed earlier, you really must get control of your club. Of course the wrong grass seed is not likely to get you into hot water, but this can be an example someone use's later to demonstrate the officers did not properly discharge their duties. IF, God forbid, an accident happens as the result of this "clique" acting outside of your site's (and the AMA's) rules, YOU may be liable for not acting to control this renegade group.

If what they are doing is truly against the wishes of the club (as voted), then of course they should not get reimbursed. Not only that, you should begin proceedings of removal from the club per your by-laws. There should be a big political backlash if, again, they are acting against the majority.

Having said all that, it's often the case that their are very few volunteers in a club to do work, and when they don't follow the plan exactly as intended, you can't complain too much unless the act is really egregious. Be careful you're not cutting off you nose to spite your face.

greenboot

My Feedback: (1)

I realize you are VERY frustrated with these dudes, buts lets think about just how bad this really is. You have the wrong kind of grass. It's not the end of the world and probably not worth destroying the club over. Don't reimburse them right away, make them beg for it. Make it clear this is the last time they get any money for purchases.

Since they didn't seed the overruns like you wanted, go ahead and do that yourself.

Tom

C_Watkins

My Feedback: (10)

I'd have to disagree, 100%, with any action resulting in these guys getting a dime of their cash back.
Reimbursing them any money for that grass seed, ever, lends validity to their actions. (IMNSHO)
I'm not saying they should be kicked out for "this" incident... though if it's simply "yet another example",
in a string of "actions that are contrary to the wishes of the voting membership"... it would seem desirable.

Seriously, now. Cave in and reimburse them with club funds, ( even if not "right away" ) when they have
apparently acted so blatantly against club wishes? Isn't that a little bit like paying the car salesman for the
shiny new Ford he just delivered... when you'd ordered the Toyota instead? I think so!

One Time At Band Camp: A "street person" runs up and "washes" your windshield while you're stuck at the
traffic light, then begins banging on your door window, yelling that you owe him $5 for the streaky, nasty
half-opaque mess that was once a perfectly viable portal through which to view the road and traffic ahead.
Do you pay the man? I'm sorry... but some of you seem like the kind of folks who actually would.
ME? I'd hold up the fivespot, then crank the window up on his arm as he reached in to grab it... and drive away.
(Ok... so I really wouldn't, but it would cross my mind, as I was telling him to kiss my creamy white <moderated>.)


Sometimes you do need to make some waves, and rock the boat good and hard, to make a point.
Obviously, the club will make its own choices... but I figure it's being aired out here, to gather opinions.
That's mine, right up there
(Edit to remind our viewers that no "street people" were actually harmed in the making of this post!)

SDR-Hammer

John, All to often on this web site people like you genuinely seek advise resolving a conflict like this. Many people add insight and sometime personal experiences, but we never hear what happened with original dilemma.

Please do us a favor and provide updates on the actions taken and the results of those actions.

J_R

Hammer

I second your motion.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

All in favor say "I".

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

aye

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

I am not an officer, but I have served as an officer in years past. I prefer to donate services to the club in other ways such as organizing and CD events, run the web site, help recruit and teach new pilots, etc.

I realize the grass issue isn't the end of the world. Part of my reason for posting here was to perform a reality check on myself. I felt I may have been to close to the trees to see the forest... or is that too close to the grass blades to see the runway? I wouldn't have really cared if they painted the club house the wrong color, but this is the runway. What they planeted will work, but at 3-4 times the yearly maintence cost.

I would never do anything to jeordize the grass that was planted, such as roundup or locking the sprinkler without the clubs general consensus nor would I condone anyone who did such an act. I also have no desire to kick out the members in question and will stand up againsts those that attempt such. They really are nice folk and have done a lot for the club, but they can be very stubborn and even agressive if they don't get thier way. I would however support any action(s) that make it clear such acts will not be tolerated in the future.

I expect some form of resolution will come about at our next meeting, which is this Friday. I really don't know what the club will decide to do at this point, but I will post the results.

As for now, the course of action I and others have taken in two fold. A group of us are persuing the new club idea. This really doesn't have a lot to do with the grass as this has been a long time coming and isn't the first time we have talked about starting another Lincoln club. Second, since we have problems with memebers not attending meetings, I wrote an editorial for the newsletter that will go out later this week. The hope is to inform members of the situation before the meeting on Friday, maybe they will attend the meeting. While the editor strongly sides with my stand on this matter, in the interest of not abusing the power of the newsletter, we have mailed a copy of the editorial to the members in question, allowing them to respond verbatium in the newsletter. The following is the editorial I wrote with a note from the editor that will also be printed.

At the April LSK meeting, several motions were made and passed to start the process of planting buffalo grass at the LSK flying site, the intent being to increase and lengthen the runway area, including and especially the over-run areas at the ends of the runway, which are currently terribly rough and destructive of aircraft of all sizes. Buffalo grass is a warm season grass and would need to be planted in mid-May. Seed and fertilizer were to be purchased before the May meeting. A planting date was to be set at the May meeting and a sign up sheet circulated to recruit helpers at that time.

But, grass has already been planted; tall fescue. In addition, no attempt was made to improve the over-shoot areas of the runway. I would like to acknowledge those that expended time and effort to plant the grass. The seed bed looks beautiful. Your past and current labor to improve the LSK flying site have been greatly appreciated by all LSK members. However, the independent decision to plant tall fescue after the club voted on Buffalo grass I feel may have been a disservice to the club.

I’ve contacted and acquired information from several Universities, including UNL, and have conversed with Miller Seed. I have spoken with RC clubs that have buffalo grass runways. I’ve also traveled to RC clubs that use tall fescue as well as buffalo grass so I have first hand experience on flying from both surfaces. In short, either will work, but buffalo clearly is the less expensive to maintain and nicer surface to fly from.

Buffalo tolerates very short mowing of 1” and is a thin grass that is easy for planes of all sizes to use. Tall Fescue has considerably higher mowing requirements in the 2”-3” range and is a dense grass that can limit its use to larger planes. Buffalo grass is a very cheap grass to properly grow. Tall fescue, while less expensive to plant compared to buffalo is considerably more expensive to maintain. Fescue requires four times the water and three times the fertilizer. For these reasons, I voted for buffalo grass.

I’m confident that those that went ahead with planting the tall fescue felt in their minds that they were doing a service to the club, but the club did not vote for fescue; they voted for buffalo grass. I left a note on the seed bags pleading not to plant the tall fescue until it could be discussed, but it was still planted. The only response was an insult printed on one of the empty seed bags retrieved from the garbage disparaging ‘large models’. Perhaps I’m paranoid, but I can’t help taking that somewhat personally. Also, considering the fact that a significant reason for the runway improvements was to increase the size and length of the runway, combined with the personal attack, via seedbag, I can’t help but feel that the fact that the runway over-run areas were completely ignored was not an oversight, but rather deliberately ignored, in order to discourage the larger models

I am not pleased that what the club votes for means nothing to some nor am I pleased with the thought of high ongoing grass maintenance costs. However, the grass is planted. I’m positive the tall fescue will be better than what we had before, so I’m not opposed to keeping it...unfortunately, it turns out it wasn’t my decision to make.

John Willman



Editors addendum: John, as one of the leading builder//flyers in the club, if not the entire Midwest, and also one who is not afraid to lend a hand when there is work to be done, or speak up when something needs to be said, has my admiration for clearly taking the high road here, when the act of contravening a properly voted upon club directive was clearly the low road. The choice of grass type was well researched, and exhaustively discussed both inside and outside of club meetings, and the club consensus was to plant Buffalo grass, to be picked up by Brian Johnson, and planted after the May club meeting (see March LSK Minutes, page 2 of this issue). The club members who took it upon themselves deliberately and with full knowledge of their actions to disregard a clear club directive evidently feel that not only is their vote worth more than anyone else’s vote, but it is worth more than everyone else’s. I would not have felt it worth commenting on if this were an isolated or minor incident, but this decision has the potential to cost the club hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in increased fertilizer/maintenance costs in the future. Additionally there has been past history of exactly this type of deliberate behaviors. Ignoring the club’s wishes in this case was not just a disservice. It was a literal slap in the face and thumbing of the nose to those members who pay their dues every year, and attend meetings, to administrate how those dues are allocated. Dave Brazee, Editor

Edited for grammer... jw.

Mike in DC

John, it looks like you're using your skills (analysis and writing) to the best you can, but I have to ask, has anybody actually talked to the "clique"? I just re-read all your posts, and I don't see any indication that you or the board members have. Also, neither your article or the addendum (which does a better job of getting to the point) really talk about consequences. By now the "clique" realizes that the only consequences of their actions are that it gets you riled up enough to write newsletter articles. That may actually be something they enjoy. It would probably be better to skip the article, and just put a notice up in the newsletter (and at the field) saying, "Anybody who makes enhancements to the field without the board's prior approval does so at their own expense and risk. No exceptions!"

I am a little nervous about the plan to just start a new club. You're going to take the same inability to communicate, persuade, and confront to the new club. What happens when someone defies you at the new club? How would you keep the clique out if they wanted to harrass you further?

The article reads like it should be titled, "An open letter to the disrespectful." That's not really going to solve the problem. What you need are allies with skills you don't have. Somebody has to go and talk to the clique and see what motivates them and how they can be brought back into the fold. In most clubs, that would be the club president, but your club doesn't have the right skillset in that office. I know you think bringing the clique back into the fold can't be done, but I don't see the evidence in the posts here. If you really believe it can't be done, then the tone of your article is way to concilatory.

SDR-Hammer

John for what it’s worth your editorial comes across well. However Dave's comments, no matter how true, should be published in a subsequent newsletter. Together both articles come across as a couple of schoolboys ganging up on the playground. The only comment from Dave at this point should be regarding that a copy was sent to the members in question requesting their rebuttal for publication.

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

Mike, I've thought about what you posted. I called the NL editor and told him not to include the editorial or his comments. He agreed. With help from others that may have better skill, I will handle this the best I know how at the meeting. I'm more than willing to admit I may not have the proper skills to handle this situation well. But reguardless of my negoiation skills, I believe it will be very difficult to find a solution that is win-win.

to answer your question, no one has spoken directly to the clique on this matter. They have however received two statements in writing. I hate to be a pessimist, but nothing good would come out of a one-on-one. I tried once before on an issue where I was attemptiong to discover why the clique strongly opposed an event I was organizing. I already knew I had enough votes for the club to endorse the event. I was just trying to adderss thier concerns. All I received was a lecture and a lot of angry shouting.

I know what motivates the clique... it is a combination of power, entitlement and pride in the field and a bit of confusion mixed in for good measure. They picked the wrong seed becasue I believe they were confused... grass is grass and all that. The decided to plant it themselves becasue they take pride in building up the club and this gives them a basis for entitlement, i.e. we do all the work here (which is far from the truth, other do a lot of work too.) They went ahead after a written note pleading not to plant the seed was taped to the seed bags because they feel entitled to do as they please. And at the upcoming meeting they will assert thier power to approve what ever they did.

If some one defies me at the new club, assuming it starts, I'll give them a swift kick in the tush. Seriously, I don't mind opposiotion or losing as long as everyone plays by the rules. The new club idea really adresses issues surrounding locating a larger landing area with less pit clutter. It could be done within the structure of the existing club, but guess who opposes the idea of finding a second site better suited for large planes and helis...

Jim Messer

My Feedback: (2)

John: The solutiion is simple. Since the tall fescue needs to be mowed at 2 to 3 inches to survive, and that is too tall for small model wheels, why not just mow it at one inch. It should soon die out, and then just go ahead and plant the Buffalo grass. Maybe plant the Buffalo grass now, and by mowing it close, it will push out the tall fescue. Worth a try.

Lightfoot

My Feedback: (1)

That is the best idea I have heard yet. The one good thing about tall fescue is that it grows rapidly. In this particular case, it can be used to shelter the buffalo grass seed until it can germinate and become healthy plants. Most short grasses will choke out tall grasses. This may be the case with the buffalo grass over the fescue.

FHHuber

You are NOT looking for a win-win solution!

The people who blatantly disobeyed a voted-upon resolution should NOT be allowed to win in any shape manner or form regarding this issue.

Looking for a win-win in this instance is like telling the shoplifter: "Its OK ... you can keep the $500 watch... just give back the candy bar."

airbatic

Hey JohnW

I'm Tim in Warner Robins, Georgia. Get a signal generator, a small r.f. amplifier, and when one of those clique guys fly, send up a signal, shoot them down, then act ignorant. Maybe then they'll go away.

Kraus

FHHuber

that is a blatant violation of FCC regs... and if caught you could end up in one heck of a heap of trouble.

Intentionally creating RF interference is illegal. Whatever damage you cause by doing it... you are 100% liable for, and your homeowners (or any other nsurance) would tell you to "*(^& hind #&*... idiot. You asked for it... you pay it." there is a potential for criminal charges. If someone is killed... you commited murder... have a nice life in prizon.

Does it still even REMOTELY seem like a good idea?

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

Dude, I would NEVER shoot anyone down intentionally. That is the first sin of RC.

Via heresay, I finally figured out all those involved in planting the grass. After thinking about it, Mike in DC is right. While the clique is very closed and difficult to break into, I felt I had to at least try to communicate with them somehow. I decided to make of point of actually talking in person to the planters at a Team JR Demo event I ran yesterday. The first person I talked too reacted poorly and I got nowhere. The second person was a bit better, but I still received the "We do what we want so shove off" attitude. By the time I got to the third person, I was actually able to have a real conversation. Most importantly, the third person I spoke too is probably the most important person in the group.

I now know why they planted what they did and I understand thier reasoning. They selected a grass that is used on the fairways of the most expensive golf course in town after talking to the green keeper. The grass could be very good, but I fear they are overly optimistic they will duplicate the expensive fairways and I fear they have underestimated the maintenance costs, both labor and dollars. The golf course is mowing abnormally short at 1", while the company that designed the seed hybrid suggests 2.5". The golf course gets away with the short mowing due to lots of care and watering.

But reguardless, I made the point clear that it wasn't thier independent decision to make, the club had already selected a grass type based on good usability and low maintenance costs. By planting early and changing the grass type, I and others felt blind sided. Even after leaving notes (at that time I had no clue who was planting), and only getting insulting reply about big planes, it only worsened the communication as I fly larger planes. We agreeed we both want to improve the club, and that they should have communicated thier intentions to the club. He understood. I belive they know they have some explaining to do at our next meeting, which is in two days.

As promised, I will post the results of the meeting and it will be my last post on this matter. Thanks all for your help.

Sport_Pilot

They don't have to hold office to be voted out. Just vote them out of the club!

bbbair

John;
"The road to He!! is paved with good intentions", they still bought the wrong seed and put it in the wrong place - all against the express wishes of the Club's Executive and general population.

Thank them for their efforts and plant the correct seed in the right spot.

No they do not get reimbursed for their wayward attempts at backroom control.


I can't wait to hear the out come of the May meeting.

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

As promised, this is what happened at the meeting.

A speech was given by one member who was resposible for changing the grass type. The reasons were fine IMO but no explanation was given as to why officers weren't informed, nor was any explanation given for not informing the club. Then it was explained that we all equally have one vote, but a lot of long time members have donated time and money to the club. The non-long time members don't attend meetings, so it stands to reason that the long time memebers are the ones that make the decisions becasue they are the ones that attend the meetings. But, no explanation was given for why the vote at the last meeting wasn't carried out.

A few members expressed being upset that passed motions weren't carried out.

Some discussion followed explaining that Buffalo takes years to establish and that is really dosen't grow in Nebraska. When confronted with evidence that Buffalo grass fields exist in Nebraska and they were established in a year, including the patches of Buffalo at our field, no explanation on how that could be possible was given. Agruments were also given that Buffalo turns brown in the fall. After we all got tired, a motion was made and passed to give the new grass a try since it is allready in. I believe the motion passed unopposed.

I then made a motion to repair the ends of the runway as we had discussed and passed last month by planting grass. Motion passed, but a few were opposed.

Someone printed this thread and took it to the meeting. A speech was made by a member with beer in hand explaining that "real men" air thier issues at meetings and not on the internet and that I had mentioned the name of the club, which I had not. I made a comment that "real men" respect what the club voted on. Some name calling ensued, he finished his speech, and then he sat down.

My take, I think we will have some nice grass surrounding our hard runway, but the club will operate as always... nothing changed.

bbbair

There is still the unanswered question; - did these people get reimbursed for their unauthorized actions/expenditure?

If so; they will consider this as a victory and do it again... WHAT Happened??