Stratotanker

My Feedback: (3)

I was wondering if any of you know where I might find 1" and 1 1/2" OD fiberglass tubes, I am wanting to make missles for my F-16.

Thanks,
Chris

kamakasi

My Feedback: (3)

Do you need the strength of the fiberglass? The biggest glass tubes I have loacated are 0.5". If you are making rockets why not use the body tubes they use to build model rockets. They come in tons of different diameters and are fairly inexpensive, not to mention the nose cones are available too. If you need them glassed you could always but on a couple layers of light glass.

And if you really wanted they could be made operational, but you did not hear that from me.[sm=lol.gif]

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Some hobby shops stock empty cardboard ESTES rocket tubes. Otherwise you could roll your own out of file folder paper, turn a balsa nose cone and cover the whole works with .5 oz cloth and medium CA.

bruce88123

Making them functional is not only an AMA violation but probably a Federal violation if you care to look it up. Encouraging this would also be considered a crime. Sorry to be a wet blanket because it would be interesting. Maybe just figure out a way to release them in flight like a bomb, again w/o explosives.

How big is the F-16?

Stratotanker

My Feedback: (3)

Bruce, the kit is a BVM F-16 and I am well aware of the AMA rules about firing projectiles from model aircraft. I have worked way too hard and long to get to the point of flying turbines to blow it on something silly like that. I am not willing to risk my$$$$$ turbine jet or get my turbine waiver revoked just yet, there are way too many things that can go wrong without adding to the equation! These missles will be for looks only, I will eventually fly with all them on the plane, she will be loaded down all the way!

Chris

Balsa Master

oh oh pick me pick me... y not buy rocket tubes?? http://www.publicmissiles.com/

you want to use PML tubes not glass since there a lot lighter, cheaper and more flexable with jsut about the same compression strnegth. DO NOT USE PHENOLIC even the LOC flexphenolic is way way too brittle for your application... its great for peircing the sound barrier.... but i doubt it will take a high G turn and landings... (its very strong under vertical load but it shatters with horizontal load)

my other hoby is high power rockets, im level 3 certified with trippoi :-D

mach or bust??


when i say PML tubes i mean the standard tubes made by them. they are the grey plastic tubes with a high gloss finish and no spiral windings.

lzvagias

bruce, you don't have friends do you?

kamakasi

My Feedback: (3)

I was not invokeing the use of live rockets to say the least about arming them with explosives. The thought was an natural extention of using the rocket tubes. The F-16 is beautiful plane I would hate to see anyone screw up at this or really any level of the sport. But it would still look neat.
By the way I thought is was against AMA rules to drop anything off of a plane. But I'll have to check it's been a long time since my terroist days.

bruce88123

First, I have plenty of friends.
Second, many of the Fun fly's have "bomb drop" events of some sort. Usually an egg or flour bag or something.
Third, I'd love to see some live ordinance come off a plane. Just wouldn't be safe. Hate to see a rocket fire and stick on the rail, ought to cause a nice spin or other out of control condition. Could even blow a wing off.

lzvagias

O.K. I'll let you off the hook this time for quoting AMA rules. Just don't let it happen again! Your a good sport.

bruce88123

I try.

TGDF

My Feedback: (3)

Not meaning to keep the pot boiling but because I have a sincere interest in exactly where the borders for this kind of stuff (esp UAVs and RPVs) lie........

Is there such a thing as an AMA Violation? I mean, for violations there are sanctions. Isn't the only sanction for stepping outside the AMA safety code the ineligibility of insurance coverage for that act? No one gets thrown out or barred from the AMA for violations of AMA safety codes, do they? You don't violate anything, you just step outside their coverage?

Same thing for the turbine waver isn't it? If I want to fly a turbine powered aircraft weighing 100#, there's nothing to stop me, is there? I'm just not covered by the AMA insurance when I do it. Isn't that what the Turbine Waiver actually is? Its a waiver under their insurance policy to have your actions covered. If, when you want to try experimental and potentially hazardous stuff, you remove yourself from the presence of other AMA members, facilities and events and take it out of town, nobody's going to complain, are they?

I mean I know, if you start firing Mach II missiles from a 10 ft model of an F15, Homeland Security is going to be asking where you were born, who you're married to and let me see the recent stamps in your passport. But I've thought of using Estes rocket engines as JATO for a model C-130 with a 10ft wingspan. And a c-130 is just a semi with wings.

Also for launching missiles from an R/C aircraft. If they don't have warheads, there's no violation of anything, is there?

Really, like I said, I'm not trying to boil the pot. Just asking a civil question because I've been trying to find some laws or regulations about this and I can't. Not that I've looked everywhere but I've been at it. Now all that being said, it always behooves one to consider and be responsible for their actions. As I'm reading much of this stuff, again esp as it relates to UAVs and RPVs, its like the potato gun issue. The BATF has ruled that potato guns are not firearms. But if you start sending high speed tubers careening around a residential area, the police will make things extremely uncomfortable for you even though you haven't violated any firearms laws.

Isn't this basically the same ballpark? There's no violation of federal law for launching non explosive missiles from an R/C aircraft is there? Again, this is not to say, that if you don't take it out somewhere where you don't disturb the neighbors, you won't be in deep stuff for disturbing the peace.

bruce88123

While you may be correct as to the letter of the law you are surely pushing the limits on the intent thereof. The problem with potato guns is that most of them are used by kids that are seldom satisfied with potatoes and end up launching who knows what. An estes rocket ignited on an F-16 missile rail in flight that happens to stick on the rail may turn that plane into an out of control F-16 Frisbee going who knows where with a load of Jet-A on board. Believe it or not, most of the rules are for our safety. As I stated before, I would love to watch many of these things myself in the proper controlled environment. I don't know if anyone has ever been thrown out of the AMA for violations, you will need to inquire there.

TGDF

My Feedback: (3)

I understand completely.

But there is a time and a place for inquiring as to the letter and intent of the law. And usually large amounts of discretion is involved in investigating and testing the limits of the laws.

Me, I'm closer to 60 than I am to 50 any more. And I'd be more than happy with just seeing how far out in the pond I can launch a potato. I find it hard enough to believe that the things even work. For safety reasons I'm sure not going to deviate from the design when I build my first one. I've got all the materials, I just can't seem to find time to get the gun together. Its just never a high enough priority.

Actually, I doubt that a more or less scale size rocket, with even a large Estes motor, ignited at a well considered altitude would cause an unrecoverable situation for a reasonably skilled pilot in type if it stuck on the rail. Could be pretty tense though, considering how dear a plane like that is to its owner. As to the crash site, you're suppose to have fire suppression available when flying a jet anyway.

And there's the crux of the matter for me. Most of the rules ARE for our safety. All of the rules are for our safety. But in these forums, we're supposed to be the designers, creators and wise men. We're supposed to understand the rules, flex them and help extend them. That's why I'm often eager to know exactly what the rules are, who made them and where I can find them. Not just because I want to cowboy a missile.

Ah, but a well crafted potato gun, now............

lzvagias

I don't really know much in that area but is a good question. The only thing that I can say is F.A.A. surely comes into the picture at some point. I agree with your quest for finding the boundaries of the law and not just comforming blindly. In florida we can't legaly shoot off bottle rockets that explode instead of fizzle, but you can shoot of one of those stinger missile sized rockets all day long. I see people doing it within a couple of miles of Eglin AFB damn near directly in their final approach! BUT NO BOTTLE ROCKETS THAT EXPLODE!?!?!? Its all too confusing! Sometimes its easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

TGDF

My Feedback: (3)

WHOA!!!!!

Not to contradict but, don't you mean that its USUALLY easier to ask permission than to ask forgiveness? Not to mention the correct thing to do? Not real easy to ask forgiveness for downing an airliner with a few hundred people on it.

I do know for absolute certain that if you are launching a model rocket larger than one of those Estes things or going over a certain altitude into controlled airspace, you for sure need an FAA waiver tor the specific date and time with either the personal info of all the people launching, or the personal info of a designated range officer who is responsable to enforce the launch window and maintain a roster of the personal info of those launching.

Info at: www.stlouisrocketry.org and http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...14cfrv2_02.tpl

The second is the Electronic Code of Federal Regs - interestingly, the FAA is one agency that has its regulations right out there for the public. Not that I'm that big an expert.

101
101.1 to 101.39
MOORED BALLOONS, KITES, UNMANNED ROCKETS AND UNMANNED FREE BALLOONS

103
103.1 to 103.23
ULTRALIGHT VEHICLES

105
105.1 to 105.49
PARACHUTE OPERATIONS

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§ 101.22 Special provisions for large model rockets.
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Persons operating model rockets that use not more than 125 grams of propellant; that are made of paper, wood, or breakable plastic; that contain no substantial metal parts, and that weigh not more than 1,500 grams, including the propellant, need not comply with §101.23 (b), (c), (g), and (h), provided:

(a) That person complies with all provisions of §101.25; and

(b) The operation is not conducted within 5 miles of an airport runway or other landing area unless the information required in §101.25 is also provided to the manager of that airport.

[Amdt. 101–6, 59 FR 50393, Oct. 3, 1994]

§ 101.23 Operating limitations.
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No person may operate an unmanned rocket—

(a) In a manner that creates a collision hazard with other aircraft;

(b) In controlled airspace;

(c) Within five miles of the boundary of any airport;

(d) At any altitude where clouds or obscuring phenomena of more than five-tenths coverage prevails;

(e) At any altitude where the horizontal visibility is less than five miles;

(f) Into any cloud;

(g) Within 1,500 feet of any person or property that is not associated with the operations; or

(h) Between sunset and sunrise.

(Sec. 6(c), Department of Transportation Act (49 U.S.C. 1655(c)))

[Doc. No. 1580, 28 FR 6722, June 29, 1963, as amended by Amdt. 101–4, 39 FR 22252, June 21, 1974]

§ 101.25 Notice requirements.
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No person may operate an unmanned rocket unless that person gives the following information to the FAA ATC facility nearest to the place of intended operation no less than 24 hours prior to and no more than 48 hours prior to beginning the operation:

(a) The names and addresses of the operators; except when there are multiple participants at a single event, the name and address of the person so designated as the event launch coordinator, whose duties include coordination of the required launch data estimates and coordinating the launch event;

(b) The estimated number of rockets to be operated;

(c) The estimated size and the estimated weight of each rocket; and

(d) The estimated highest altitude or flight level to which each rocket will be operated.

(e) The location of the operation.

(f) The date, time, and duration of the operation.

(g) Any other pertinent information requested by the ATC facility.

[Doc. No. 1580, 28 FR 6722, June 29, 1963, as amended by Amdt. 101–6, 59 FR 50393, Oct. 3, 1994]

Subpart D—Unmanned Free Balloons