rclaser

My first ever crash. My instructor took off brought it into wind, then handed it over to me while still at full power in the middle of a turn both our transmitters locked out. Now i know what a crunch a plane makes when it hits the ground.
The whole front end snaped, the wings as well and the motor mount snaped in half so that ended that evening flying for me. The plane I was flying was a magister.

Oopps was all i could say.

TankHunter

My Feedback: (1)

hmm me thinks that the instructor needs to buy u a new plane.... handing over the aircraft to a student in a tun with wind... pretty careless... well let me know how it goes and if i were you for a new trainer get a .40 or .60 size ultra stick it is b far the best trainer out there.. forgiveing, stable, aerobatic, and slows down like a 3d plane.... it is tops for training!!!!

Rod

RC MANIAC119

My Feedback: (14)

I'm curious, what do you mean by"both transmitters locked out"?? Niether one of you had control....right? Did'nt this instructor check the system before you took off?

Sounds like he will be re-building for you..but my advice would be to GET ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR!!!

kregan

First off he said they where locked out. How is that the instructors fault?

Second most flight instructors are volunteers. I volunteer my time every
Tuesday to help train guys. The students know the risk, if a plane goes in
its on them, not me! If a student thinks I will replace his plane if it crashes
he better pack up and go home or find another instructor.

It is the students responsibility to charge and maintain the equipment not
the instructors, we are there to help and guide the students not maintain
the aircraft like it is our own.

Third, the Ultra Stick is not a trainer. As a matter of fact I find it hard
to see in the air and a new pilot could easily get disoriented and crash.
Get a real trainer like the Hanger 9 Alfa .60 or .40 or another plane in
its class. Also buy yourself a battery tester with a load and use it before
EVERY flight. I bet the Rx batteries dumped during the flight.

gumhead

I agree with Advent if everyone blamed the instructor when a plane crashed there would be no instructors. I know I would stop helping people out if they were gona make me buy them new planes if something ever happened. It sounds like a radio problem. But I really dont know what "locked out" is either. There is a number of things that could go wrong, sometimes you never find out what happened.... So the instructors should buy a new plane??? People coming in to this hobby should know that planes crash, its possible that their plane will crash. The possibility is greater when you're just starting out. Its the way the hobby is. If the instructor is honest he will say its his fault and possibly chip in for a new plane or help fix the plane.

Oh and the ultra stick is far from being a trainer...

aussiesteve

I agree that the instructor simply can't take full responsibility - their job is simply to safely guide the student in their flying and maintenance efforts whilst trying their best to teach them to make each landing (the only compulsory part of every flight) a good one.
How many of us have lost a plane due to the unexpected like battery failure, switch failure, linkage failure etc? Like Forrest Gumps Tee shirt says - "S--t Happens"


Depending on where you're at whith the training, the Ultra Stick can be a great second plane - as well as being able to to some pretty good aerobatics. - I've seen some high level pattern pilots use them as test platforms for new equipment (albeit the 1.20 size)and in the hands of those guys they are an amazing plane. It's what made me decide to buy one and I love flying it - especially on my "lazy days".

Arrow IV

Advent,

I understand the whole volunteer obligation thing is kinda heavy for an instructor, but dude you godda be there for your peeps! All students look up to their instructors without question. First instructor I had crashed my plane, his fault? YES. The code is: when things go wrong = instructor's fault, when things go right = student's ability, end of story. Besides if ANYONE is going to fly another's plane it's that person's responsibility to check the plane B4 you fly it. RC MANIAC119 you da man!! Rubber side down boys!!

kregan

Matt, you are killing me!!! my peeps!!!

My peeps understand the meaning of personal responsibility.

What your saying is that if a student puts a JR servo arm on a Futaba
servo, or the wheels fall off, or the wing departs, or the engine falls off,
or if the covering rips off, or the battery fails, or a 100 other things,
it is my fault? Not in my world!

The only aircraft at the field that I am 100% confident in is my own.
I built or assembled it, I set it up, and if something fails it my fault.

The only thing I check on a students plane is the control surfaces are
moving correctly before each flight. It is the students responsibility,
and part of his training to check the batteries, tune the engine
(with our help if he needs it), fuel the plane, bring a timer and set
the time before the flight, start the plane, remove the glow plug
igniter, and pre flight the plane at home on the bench.

I am more then happy to let them use my equipment if needed.
Like chargers, testers, whatever.

Arrow IV

Advent,

Don't get me wrong I'm not asking you to pull off a "Kreskin" and predict the future and whereby that future dictates your surmise, not at all. You are right S#$T Happens and the Young Guns (peeps) need to know that. I'm just saying "teach o wise one and help thyn youth". Consider this: If the Young Guns don't know anything how can you hold them to a standard of airworthiness?? Better yet as an experienced RC Pilot how long do you think it would take for you to identify an indication of a would be accident?? My guess is about 3 seconds, come on you know crap when you see it! Rubber side down boys!

CGCOMM3RET

Sorry gang, but I gotta land on the side of the instructors here. I haven't even flown my trainer yet (lacking $$ to get it into the air at this point).

I agree that as a "pilot in training" it is my responsibility to check EVERYTHING over before I fly the plane. This rule even held true when I was first learning how to fly full sized back in the 70's (which I couldn't keep up with cuz McD's didn't pay enough at that time). The instructor would walk around the aircraft with me on pre-flight to ensure that I checked everything in the correct order and correctly.

When I do finally get my plane in the air, with a qualified instructor, it will be my responsibility to ensure that to the best of my working knowledge of RC aircraft, it is flight worthy. If I have a question about something, I will double check with the instructor to make sure it is correct. I cannot hold him responsible if something on my plane breaks because I didn't see it and correct it before the fault occured.

Larry

Mr. Canadian

I will have to agree with the instructors here that the plane's condition and flight worthiness is up to the student. I would only hold the instructor responsible for buying a new plane if he accidentally dumb thumb the plane in himself and not some mechanical failure. My first trainer that I had, my instructor did it in but, it was half my fault and half his from communication issue's. I had decided not to hold him responsible since it was a little too windy that day for training and he took me up because I was a little too eager to fly.

ArCeeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I believe also that an instructor, who really should be qualified by the club, should in no way ever be held responsible for any mishap while training no matter who's "unintentional" fault it may be. Instructors are typically "asked" to instruct and when you ask somebody for their help, you can't expect to place any liability on them provided they help to the best of their ability and in good faith. Nobody is perfect. That doesn't mean any given instructor may not be generous and provide some kind of compensation because he felt he might have caused a crash. Free "asked for" services shouldn't have any liability attached. The trainee has choices, learn to fly on his own and likely crash early on or inlist a competent club instructor for far greater odds of getting a lot of flight training without crashing. To be realistic, a club should insure a trainee's plane, since it's usually the club that insists on making a trainee use an instructor. It should be part of their budget. As an instructor, I always go over the trainee's plane with him and how he prepared the plane. I check everything, c.g., control direction and throws, connections, tightness, engine tuning, etc., etc. If a plane isn't up to par, I don't take it up. Now, if anyone wants to pay me $50/hour for instruction, I will guarantee against damages from from any training crash. I will even use my own plane and radio equipment. Totally risk free to the trainee simply for the fee. But for free, they bare the risk and they simply just need to make sure they have a capable instructor.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

This has been discussed a million times on RCU and since I am the expert on all things to do with etiquette at the field I will enlighten the rest of you. It's not the instructor's responsibility to pay for a new plane. Help fix the plane sure, but not pay for it. We don't know the particulars of what rclaser meant by "locked out" and since he is still learning he probably doesn't even know what "locked out" means. Maybe he does need to find a new instructor, who knows. What we do know is he now learned what a crash is like and if he get's back on the horse and in the air again he will be better off for having this experiance.

a65l

My Feedback: (17)

I gotta chime in here. I'm no instructor, but have been flying long enough that I've been asked to maiden other people's airplanes for them. If I was flying a full sized airplane, no matter how well I knew the owner/pilot, I'd do a complete and throrough preflight, more thorough than I'd do on my own plane. Same with R/C airplanes. The wing coems off, we look at stuff, because, plain and simple, I'm not gonna loose an airplane, mine or any other, for something I could have prevented on the ground.
And if the owner is ready to fly it, control is only passed straight and level, at least 3 mistakes high. True, I'm passing the entire transmitter, not just transferring control thru a buddy box, but the principal is the same.

As far as the instructor replacing an airplane, or for that matter another pilot replacing your airplane, that's fairly cut and dried IMHO. Midairs happen to the best pilots, but when you're flying the wrong way in the pattern and you tag somebody, sorry, that's your fault. If you taxi out in front of a landing airplane and cause an accident, sorry, that's your fault. When you turn on your transmitter without clearing your frequency, sorry, that's your fault. And if an instructor allows his student to get his airplane into a non-recoverable situation, sorry, that's the instructor's fault. Part of the training for an instructor is having your instructor try and crash your airplane. It's your job to prevent that, to recgonize when the plane is going out of control, and take control back before it gets unrecoverable.

The real point I'm trying to make here is that if you're flying an airplane, you, and only you, are responsible. IF you're an instructor, you're responsible for not only yourself, but also the student, and if youy allow that student to fly an unairworty airplane, overfly the pits, or get into an unrecoverable situation, it's your fault. If you're not willing to take that responsibility, don't instruct.

Off soapbox.

Andy

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

It's anything but "cut and dried". You can give black and white scenarios here online but in real life they are never that simple.

Arrow IV

FlyPeople, (godda be politically correct)

Lots of views, lots of angles, but if you read between the lines sounds like we have a majority of instructors that are living on "...I'm not payin for that its your risk and you should have known that". That's a little disapointing. I have got to give props (no pun) to A65l and Alan for the ground school/preflight. So for that guys I say thanks for the Young Guns. Did y'all read Mr. Canadian he's on it: FAULT!! IF it is the instructor's FAULT they buy!!! All instructors including myself should live by "If I botch it I buy it". And come on guys I'm not sayin (again) you don't have to predict the future, just don't screw up!! IF YOU CAN'T PUT UP DON'T STEP UP!! All your going to do is lose friends. Hey Larry all due respect if your outa cash now what happens if your instructor does the "smoking hole" with your plane on the first flight?? How long you gonna be grounded then...?? What's the definition of CRAZY? When the WHOLE WORLD looks crazy... its you buddy!! I guess its me. So resigned to my fate I leave chivalry behind and fade to black with a whimper... your on your own Young Guns good luck... Rubber side down boys!!

kregan

So far off base it is funny....

How about when the student is learning to land? At some point
in the training he will be so close to the ground there is no time
to recover the plane if the student blows it.

If you guys held instructors to that standard there wouldn't be
many instructors. Then the "peep's" would have to learn the
way I did... I taught myself to fly and payed the price!

Anyway, im off to training day... Maybe I should check my
bank account balance? Yea right!!!

Arrow IV

Advent, Advent, Advent,

I as well as others here have a running theme as of late. I'm gonna say this for the cheap seats IF THE INSTRUCTOR IS AT FAULT... (Advent the dots mean following action) I don't know any other way to illustrate, describe, define, articualte, or otherwise explain this singular point!! So what am I missing? (Adv thats a rhetorical question: that means just think about it for short) I am glad you're enjoying the "peeps" thing though. Andy is right, the whole thing is not to let the student get to that point. So Young Guns once again your on your own!! (you are gathering a following though) Keep it real and of course 'Rubber side down boys'!!

TankHunter

My Feedback: (1)

let me say this... it is the responsibility of the student to check his airplane for mistakes and mechanical failures...but saying that he is a STUDENT... they will make mistakes and thus being a STUDENT it is also the instructors responsibility to double check that the STUDENT checked everything. this is part of the learning process is it not? at my club all of our instructors are ground and air rated.. we also have some instructors who are for ground training only.

i believe that in some circumstances the instructor is FULLY responsible for the aircraft weather it is owned by him or not. for example... if he is in the air training and hands off to the STUDENT but dose not say anything whose fault is it?? the instructors!!! he had control of the aircraft and then randomly gave control over to some one who has no idea what is happening

Landing and Taking off is some of the most dangerous flying for both full scale and models.. and for that reason the instructor is there as a safety barrier... if a student should ruin a take off run and become disoriented and lose control with the plane heading for the pits... it is the instructor who should survey the situation and hope fully save the plan or destroy it before it dose any damage...

being an instructor is a large responsibility but it has to be done... best thing is to after a crash talk over what happened and figure out if it was the instructors fault(YES IT DOSE HAPPEN) the students fault , or mechanical failure that could not be helped by anyone.... then we figure out who will replace the plane.. student, instructor, manufacturer.....

PS the ultra stick is the best flying plane out there and I'm proud to say that i trained on it!!!!!

ArCeeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

Good luck on trying to prove whose, or what, fault it was. That can be next to impossible most of the time. I say just have the club cover any damages and let instructors and trainees fly and learn with peace of mind, worry free. If your going to ask me to donate my free time and effort and expect me to pay for any "accidental" damages, then please don't ask.

Flak

My Feedback: (1)

I hope you "I'm not responsible" so called "Instructors" never make it to instructing full scale aircraft! I get a new student, I check both him, his equipment and his aircraft. I make sure everything is correct. I quiz him to find out what he knows. I begin as if he knows nothing about R/C. I use a buddy box system. I fly the plane first to make sure it is properly trimmed. I get him on a flight sim to practice his ass off. I take responsibility. I make sure he flies in a safe and prudent manner. When something happens beyond the instructor's control, i.e. switch, battery, radio failure it's understandable the instructor is not responsible. However, most of the time the instructor has the power and authority to assume command and control the aircraft. I make a mistake and crash his plane for him, I buy another plane. Anything less and you are not an instructor...You are a Big Disappointment!!!

RC MANIAC119

My Feedback: (14)

AMEN FLAK...That says it all!!!

ArCeeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

You are the jackass just for calling people jackass. How immature is that? The rest of us non-jackasses are having an intelligent civilized debate on the issue of how much liability should an instructor have. See if you can rise to that level at least. You are correct when you say...
...I don't think anybody is arguing with that. Sure, an instructor should be responsible in his actions. Instructors don't usually get "asked" to be instructors if they are prone to making mistakes. They usually have built a reputation of reliability with the club members that makes them a wanted commodity. If a club allows an incompetent pilot to be an instructor, the club should be held responsible for any damages as a result. I'm just saying it's unfair to lay the burden of monetary liability on an individual that you ask for help from that you know to be reliable and have trust in. Your using his time, knowledge, ability, and labor for free! But crap happens to the best of us.

Example: You invite guests to your house for dinner. One of them accidentally spills some wine and ruins your expensive persian rug. Would you seriously tell them they have to pay for that? You asked them to be there. You gave them the wine and the place setting for them to drink it from. If you were worried about damages occuring from having guests for dinner, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it. That's one of the risks you take for inviting guests over for diner.

Plus, many of us instuctors would offer help in repairs and such out of the kindness of our hearts even if it wasn't our fault just because you feel bad for the trainee. Most of us instructors are happy to donate our time and effort to help someone. Please don't diminish that by demanding monetary liability from that individual. Let the club handle that. If you get an idiot instructor, blame the club and ask it to pay. If he was not with a club, then shame on the trainee. If my club would make it a rule that I would have to pay if a mishap that was decided to be my fault, even though I was working in good faith and to the best of my ability, on top of giving my time and efforts for free, then my services would no longer be available and I would go on to enjoy more flying time for myself. Who loses then? The beginners!

By the way, I have only had 2 training flights go bad (using the buddy box system) that went beyond any possible recovery on my part and I'm not shy to say that I have pretty fast reflexes, which is why I am constantly asked to test fly and maiden fly members planes for them and I am happy to do it provided I'm not held liable for anything that goes wrong beyond my control. If I really botch it myself, which is highly unlikely, then I would most likely offer to fix or pay for it on my own free will, but that's just the nice guy in me. Both of those mishaps are very suspicious of an interference glitch from an under ground powerline that goes across the far end of our runway. Both planes were flying straight then suddenly snapped over. One was too close to the trees to pull out causing minor damage which I fixed for the guy even though I didn't feel responsible for it. That guy later fried my computer radio by trying to plug his end of the training cord into his Tx charge jack after mine end was plugged in. I never asked him to pay for it. S**t happens. This hobby has risks. A beginner needs to learn that. The other mishap was on take off and the same thing, plane snapped over and not enough altitude to pull out. Virtually no damage and the guy didn't expect me to fix it anyway. It's also good to learn to fix your own plane eventually. I have lost count of what must be hundreds of times I have save trainees planes and some from near impossible recovery, as well as all the valuable instruction I have provided. Many of those pilots now instruct other folks. I believe I have earned a title far above "jackass". Feel free to ask members of my club. I'm confident what you hear will back up what I said here.

p.s. With today's great technoligical advancements in R/C, training without the "buddy box" system is just plain fool hardy. Training cords are the only way our club allows trainees to be instructed. Back before I had the security of training cords, I occasionally had students form a death grip on their Tx even when I would be yelling to "hand it over now!" only to watch them spiral in to a devistating crash. I will never train someone without a "buddy box" ever again just for that reason.

I see you changed your "jackass" remark to "disapointment". Not even sure of your own commitment to integrity. I don't think I would want that shortcoming in an instructor.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Some of you in this discussion I see have very few posts. One thing I have learned on RCU is that not everyone's experiance at the field is the same as mine and that we all have differant perspectives based on how our club or non-club field is structured. Some have rules that apply to these situations and some do not. The one thing that is being overlooked is the importance of discussing liability before agreeing to take on the role of Instructor or even just doing a maiden flight for someone.

I have often been asked to maiden a plane and will always offer to go over the build and set-up prior to flying. I also always say before hand that no matter what happens I am not responsible for the plane as many things can happen that are out of my control. The same statement is made prior to any training.

Much of the second guessing and armchair quarterbacking taking place in this discussion can be avoided with a simple understanding (with a witness) prior to any flying.

Arrow IV

Basin,

First of all maiden and instructing are two totally different things, one is an experiment and the other is an education!! I guess the next time I go to the field I'll have to call my attorney, get sworn in and put my hand on the good book!! Witness? Come on, are we not adults?? Hey "Peeps" can ya feel the love?? Goooooooooooo Young Guns (the following... the following...) Rubber side down boys!!


PS Hey ArCeeflyer, Flak changes his wording and plays "nicey nice" and you call him out
on it?!! (Insert cat fight sound here)[X(]