We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
07-04-2009 | 01:53 PM
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We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
Every day I see posts from new fliers looking for advice about what to buy. Where do I start? What do I get next? Do I need a simulator? Do simulators really help? How good does the sim need to be? How good does the helicopter need to be? And how big? And it's all based on questions that only the new flier can answer.
We need to build a worksheet that will resolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expectations for the first week, first month, first year, ultimate goal and psychological profile would be good. Is the flier willing to practice? Is the flier willing to spend hours on a simulator? Is the flier willing to spend several times the cost of the helicopter on repair parts?
A well developed profile would have told me that I am not a good candidate for a helicopter. I could afford a decent helicopter. My eye hand coordination stinks. And I don't take the time to practice. I never wanted 3d, just backyard pattern flight and I'd be happy. I like the look of scale flight. I have very low tolerance for things that don't work well (like helicopters that fall out of the sky). My back yard is a bit small for a high reving collective pitch. From that, I would recommend a purpose built fixed pitch based on a brushless motor and Guru Z air frame. But I have a low tolerance for damage and repair costs. That would lead me to scale flight and one of the big coaxials (Big Lama). With the upper rotor painted a neutral color and the lower rotor painted black the appearance is a big single rotor. And if the flier is willing to accept his limitations that would be an acceptable recommendation. Of course if someone had told me that from the outset, I would have purchased the Belt CP anyhow. I'd have broken it, repaired it. Sold it. And then admitted that the adviser was correct. Some things ya just gotta learn the hard way.
Any thoughts on the worksheet? It might be a fun project.
Soloboss
We need to build a worksheet that will resolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expectations for the first week, first month, first year, ultimate goal and psychological profile would be good. Is the flier willing to practice? Is the flier willing to spend hours on a simulator? Is the flier willing to spend several times the cost of the helicopter on repair parts?
A well developed profile would have told me that I am not a good candidate for a helicopter. I could afford a decent helicopter. My eye hand coordination stinks. And I don't take the time to practice. I never wanted 3d, just backyard pattern flight and I'd be happy. I like the look of scale flight. I have very low tolerance for things that don't work well (like helicopters that fall out of the sky). My back yard is a bit small for a high reving collective pitch. From that, I would recommend a purpose built fixed pitch based on a brushless motor and Guru Z air frame. But I have a low tolerance for damage and repair costs. That would lead me to scale flight and one of the big coaxials (Big Lama). With the upper rotor painted a neutral color and the lower rotor painted black the appearance is a big single rotor. And if the flier is willing to accept his limitations that would be an acceptable recommendation. Of course if someone had told me that from the outset, I would have purchased the Belt CP anyhow. I'd have broken it, repaired it. Sold it. And then admitted that the adviser was correct. Some things ya just gotta learn the hard way.
Any thoughts on the worksheet? It might be a fun project.
Soloboss
07-04-2009 | 02:29 PM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
soloboss, you always come up with good ideas. You've already contributed a great deal to this forum and now this.
I think if the spreadsheet could be kept fairly simple, it could address most of the main concerns from those of us who are still unworthy to poplulate such a spreadsheet. I'm a little reluctant to endorse a highly detailed one since inquiries about this topic always seem to draw a crowd and stimulates much useful discussion.
Still it would be great to know what one is getting oneself into relative to a particular selection. And a chart with key info certainly would help streamline discussions and cut to the chase.
Guess we also have to realize that the market changes and improvements are made, so the chart would have to be regularly updated and vetted.
I'm just a lowly newbie on a CX2, but I'm constantly studying what's out there and what my next heli will be. I see lots of opinions flying around, but there seems to be some consensus among our peers as to what the next move probably should be based on my needs (wants!).
Interested in seeing what others think.
Mack
I think if the spreadsheet could be kept fairly simple, it could address most of the main concerns from those of us who are still unworthy to poplulate such a spreadsheet. I'm a little reluctant to endorse a highly detailed one since inquiries about this topic always seem to draw a crowd and stimulates much useful discussion.
Still it would be great to know what one is getting oneself into relative to a particular selection. And a chart with key info certainly would help streamline discussions and cut to the chase.
Guess we also have to realize that the market changes and improvements are made, so the chart would have to be regularly updated and vetted.
I'm just a lowly newbie on a CX2, but I'm constantly studying what's out there and what my next heli will be. I see lots of opinions flying around, but there seems to be some consensus among our peers as to what the next move probably should be based on my needs (wants!).
Interested in seeing what others think.
Mack
07-04-2009 | 02:42 PM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
It may simply turn into a death spiral, but it could be a fun project. It would only be taken seriously if we actually get it to work. Perhaps at each level of question, the resulting field would be narrowed.
Start with two questions and build on that.
Question #1 might be price range. If the maximum available cash is $200, everything above that would be removed from the final answer pallet. Then it gets hard. Is $200 better spent on a $100 helicopter and a $100 simulator, or on a $200 helicopter?
Question #2 might be a willingness to spend money on a simulator - and a willingness to use it.
The need for a coaxial, RTF FP, RTF CP, Custom FP etc would come later. I see this becoming a 3D matrix already. Gotta keep it 2D.
I must ponder.
Options need to be determined and listed, then the questions and answers need to lead us to a definitive result. I think we could do this. Each answer would remove some result from the list of possibilities. We'd have to get the questions in the correct order. I'm liking this already.
Solo
Start with two questions and build on that.
Question #1 might be price range. If the maximum available cash is $200, everything above that would be removed from the final answer pallet. Then it gets hard. Is $200 better spent on a $100 helicopter and a $100 simulator, or on a $200 helicopter?
Question #2 might be a willingness to spend money on a simulator - and a willingness to use it.
The need for a coaxial, RTF FP, RTF CP, Custom FP etc would come later. I see this becoming a 3D matrix already. Gotta keep it 2D.
I must ponder.
Options need to be determined and listed, then the questions and answers need to lead us to a definitive result. I think we could do this. Each answer would remove some result from the list of possibilities. We'd have to get the questions in the correct order. I'm liking this already.
Solo
07-04-2009 | 02:46 PM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
Don't know if you noticed, but I published useful links for CX owners a little while ago. But no feedback to date:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8881518/tm.htm
I guess I was thinking the same way as you...we learn this stuff, but the info doesn't necessarily get compiled into a tidy package but once in a great while. Your ruminations are already explaining why!
Keep thinking and I'll watch. And thanks!
Mack
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8881518/tm.htm
I guess I was thinking the same way as you...we learn this stuff, but the info doesn't necessarily get compiled into a tidy package but once in a great while. Your ruminations are already explaining why!
Keep thinking and I'll watch. And thanks!
Mack
07-04-2009 | 04:00 PM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
Mack,
This is a link to all sorts of stuff for the CX. Add it to your page. Your's is more up to date, but the information never really goes out of style. [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7035042/anchors_7035042/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#7035042]CX Links Link[/link] The site includes a link to the Wiki version of my page. Shane (stump3r) was good enough to link to the page from his RotorTech site because the Wiki link gets hijacked occasionally.
Collecting all of the information and occasionally posting it for the new fliers is always a good idea. Thankfully there seems to be an endless supply of new helicopter pilots. Gotta love that.
Solo
This is a link to all sorts of stuff for the CX. Add it to your page. Your's is more up to date, but the information never really goes out of style. [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7035042/anchors_7035042/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#7035042]CX Links Link[/link] The site includes a link to the Wiki version of my page. Shane (stump3r) was good enough to link to the page from his RotorTech site because the Wiki link gets hijacked occasionally.
Collecting all of the information and occasionally posting it for the new fliers is always a good idea. Thankfully there seems to be an endless supply of new helicopter pilots. Gotta love that.
Solo
07-04-2009 | 09:27 PM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
Awesome! Thanks. I remember viewing some of these, and then forgetting where I put them. I'll update my list and then repost. Wish I'd stumbled onto a total list like these when I first started (had no idea what I was doing or getting myself into).
Mack
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07-05-2009 | 05:52 AM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
I think its not a bad idea at all Mark, i can also see it spiralling into a huge project with unlimited posibilities leading from each question.
A flow chart for newbie wanting to buy for the first time could be very helpfull based as you said on what you want what your willing to spend and the willing to learn. Coaxials very easy to learn on ccpm machines take much much more studying etc. Some dont really understand the effort and repair cost which ultimatly leads to chopper getting stored or sold and the hobby being dropped instead of finding a more suitable machine for the person in mind. A flow chart to to steer the person in the right direction could be just the thing for some people.
A flow chart for newbie wanting to buy for the first time could be very helpfull based as you said on what you want what your willing to spend and the willing to learn. Coaxials very easy to learn on ccpm machines take much much more studying etc. Some dont really understand the effort and repair cost which ultimatly leads to chopper getting stored or sold and the hobby being dropped instead of finding a more suitable machine for the person in mind. A flow chart to to steer the person in the right direction could be just the thing for some people.
07-05-2009 | 06:25 AM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
A flow chart? Excellent! I was headed a different direction, using the PUGH method. My boss uses that and it's great. I don't know if you're familiar with it, so here's the Wiki description.
The decision-matrix method, also Pugh method, is a quantitative technique used to rank the multi-dimensional options of an option set. It is frequently used in engineering for making design decisions but can also be used to rank investments options, vendor options, product options or any other set of multidimensional entities.
A basic decision matrix consists of establishing a set of weighted criteria upon which the potential options can be decomposed, scored, and summed to gain a total score which can then be ranked.
The advantage of this approach to decision making is that subjective opinions about one alternative versus another can be made more objective. Another advantage of this method is that sensitivity studies can be performed. An example of this might be to see how much your opinion would have to change in order for a lower ranked alternative to out rank a competing alternative.
A flow chart would be an IF / THEN path to the resolution. That could get huge, and it could be a lot of fun to do. The flow chart is familiar to a lot of us. The Pugh chart is simple addition for the user but it's tough to come up with the correct weighting for each category.
I was thinking about starting with the helicopters in the 500 class, then as the reader closes doors (limited funding, lousy abilities, no mechanical ability) the choices become more limited. I think I need several categories of helicopters to start with. And I need a list of decisions that the reader needs to make/answer. I can take that to the forum and when I have a list of determining factors I can start.
Glad to see that there is some interest in this. Sounds like a cool project but it probably won't actually guide anyone to their final destination. What it will do is illustrate the factors to consider and the vast variety of helicopters in the pot-of-gold at the end of the rainbow. I'm still liking a version of a flow chart but I'm not quite sure what to do with it. In my head it keeps becoming a 3D chart and that's just too hard to control.
Time to start my lists and ask for input. Is any of the old crew still on the eflight forum or have they moved on? The Collective does have the answers if they (we) are still around.
Solo
The decision-matrix method, also Pugh method, is a quantitative technique used to rank the multi-dimensional options of an option set. It is frequently used in engineering for making design decisions but can also be used to rank investments options, vendor options, product options or any other set of multidimensional entities.
A basic decision matrix consists of establishing a set of weighted criteria upon which the potential options can be decomposed, scored, and summed to gain a total score which can then be ranked.
The advantage of this approach to decision making is that subjective opinions about one alternative versus another can be made more objective. Another advantage of this method is that sensitivity studies can be performed. An example of this might be to see how much your opinion would have to change in order for a lower ranked alternative to out rank a competing alternative.
A flow chart would be an IF / THEN path to the resolution. That could get huge, and it could be a lot of fun to do. The flow chart is familiar to a lot of us. The Pugh chart is simple addition for the user but it's tough to come up with the correct weighting for each category.
I was thinking about starting with the helicopters in the 500 class, then as the reader closes doors (limited funding, lousy abilities, no mechanical ability) the choices become more limited. I think I need several categories of helicopters to start with. And I need a list of decisions that the reader needs to make/answer. I can take that to the forum and when I have a list of determining factors I can start.
Glad to see that there is some interest in this. Sounds like a cool project but it probably won't actually guide anyone to their final destination. What it will do is illustrate the factors to consider and the vast variety of helicopters in the pot-of-gold at the end of the rainbow. I'm still liking a version of a flow chart but I'm not quite sure what to do with it. In my head it keeps becoming a 3D chart and that's just too hard to control.
Time to start my lists and ask for input. Is any of the old crew still on the eflight forum or have they moved on? The Collective does have the answers if they (we) are still around.
Solo
07-05-2009 | 09:31 AM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
There is a few of the old crew kicking about, RGM Rotorydoc evdreamer and stumper are still kicking about, and obviously me.
I think the pugh method could be great although ive never experianced it before.
The flow chart idea :
I was thinking more of starting with budget before helis Mark. Say what budget do you have, what monthly budget would you have to spend on repairs. What abilitis are you wanting from your heli, ie indoor fun, scale flight, 3d etc then introduce which heli would best suit what they want.
I think the pugh method could be great although ive never experianced it before.
The flow chart idea :
I was thinking more of starting with budget before helis Mark. Say what budget do you have, what monthly budget would you have to spend on repairs. What abilitis are you wanting from your heli, ie indoor fun, scale flight, 3d etc then introduce which heli would best suit what they want.
07-05-2009 | 02:10 PM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
Somewhere in my piles of stuff I've lost your first name. I apologize for that.
I actually put the budget third. My first question is where do you want to end up? My answer is always, "Before I can tell you what to buy, I need to know where you're going." I did struggle with what to lead with and money kept coming to the top, but in the end I decided that the expectations that a flier has for his final destination might win. Somehow the money thing does seem to keep moving up the list, so I'll go with your thought on that one.
I can move the budget item later. First we need a good list of things to consider when a new flier asks where to start - or what's next?
DESIRED END RESULT - there's no reason to talk about a 500 class 3D heli if the flier wants to fly scale patterns in the back yard of a tight residential area. For some fliers a nice coaxial will do very nicely. No reason to be embarrassed about that if it’s what you want. For many, this is a second or third hobby and that will make a difference in the choices out there. What looks cool on the shelf may actually be a determining factor if the flier is only going to fiddle with this hobby.
WILLINGNESS TO PRACTICE/SIM - a flier who won't practice is doomed. It really makes little difference what you want to fly. Gotta practice or get good at building static display helicopters.
FUNDING - "I want it" doesn't get you very far. And as the hobby sucks the flier deeper into the sport, the FUNDING may change as your priorities change. But funding must be dealt with at the time the "What to buy" decision is made.
NATURAL PHYSICAL ABILITY –this will be the frustration that sidelines a lot of fliers. It can be overcome with a willingness to practice, but it should be part of the “Where do I start” as well as the “What’s next” decisions. Many do well with a 450 CP as the first bird. Some never progress beyond a nice coaxial. It's a cruel fact of life that ability is a determining factor as far as final success and budget.
FLYING AREA – when you have achieved your final goal, where do you want to fly? And if you have to transport a 500 class CP on the subway to get to an open area that might become a barricade to you success.
GEAR THE FLIER HAS or WILL PURCHASE - relevant for the "What's next?" question. I have no idea how to build this into the decision making process. If you aren’t going to get a computerized TX you are limiting yourself no matter what you fly. You can do it the hard way. It wasn’t that many years ago there were no Gyros and helicopters did get flown. Those guys were good. And several of us fiddle with helicopters using the RTF radio gear.
VANITY – if the results of this show you should have a Big Lama, suck it up or get better. If you feel the need to buy something cool that you can’t fly you’re in trouble.
RC HELI EXPERIENCE –any experience is good and can be reinforced by any stick time – real world or simulated. This item may be a determining factor, but it’s low on my scale.
MECHANICAL ABILITY - I pushed it down because most can learn and the forum will explain endlessly
TOLERANCE FOR DAMAGING YOUR HELICOPTER – this is what killed my spirit. If it were more wide spread it should be first. Perhaps it should be no more than a footnote. But if breaking a perfectly good heli will ruin your day, find a new hobby. It’s a psychological dysfunction that I have. It hurts me to wear things out and it just kills me to break things. I can’t survive this hobby without psychiatric help. I found that I can mess with planes OK but my helicopters have always found terra-firma to be a bad ending to a good movie.
Soloboss (aka Mark)
I actually put the budget third. My first question is where do you want to end up? My answer is always, "Before I can tell you what to buy, I need to know where you're going." I did struggle with what to lead with and money kept coming to the top, but in the end I decided that the expectations that a flier has for his final destination might win. Somehow the money thing does seem to keep moving up the list, so I'll go with your thought on that one.
I can move the budget item later. First we need a good list of things to consider when a new flier asks where to start - or what's next?
DESIRED END RESULT - there's no reason to talk about a 500 class 3D heli if the flier wants to fly scale patterns in the back yard of a tight residential area. For some fliers a nice coaxial will do very nicely. No reason to be embarrassed about that if it’s what you want. For many, this is a second or third hobby and that will make a difference in the choices out there. What looks cool on the shelf may actually be a determining factor if the flier is only going to fiddle with this hobby.
WILLINGNESS TO PRACTICE/SIM - a flier who won't practice is doomed. It really makes little difference what you want to fly. Gotta practice or get good at building static display helicopters.
FUNDING - "I want it" doesn't get you very far. And as the hobby sucks the flier deeper into the sport, the FUNDING may change as your priorities change. But funding must be dealt with at the time the "What to buy" decision is made.
NATURAL PHYSICAL ABILITY –this will be the frustration that sidelines a lot of fliers. It can be overcome with a willingness to practice, but it should be part of the “Where do I start” as well as the “What’s next” decisions. Many do well with a 450 CP as the first bird. Some never progress beyond a nice coaxial. It's a cruel fact of life that ability is a determining factor as far as final success and budget.
FLYING AREA – when you have achieved your final goal, where do you want to fly? And if you have to transport a 500 class CP on the subway to get to an open area that might become a barricade to you success.
GEAR THE FLIER HAS or WILL PURCHASE - relevant for the "What's next?" question. I have no idea how to build this into the decision making process. If you aren’t going to get a computerized TX you are limiting yourself no matter what you fly. You can do it the hard way. It wasn’t that many years ago there were no Gyros and helicopters did get flown. Those guys were good. And several of us fiddle with helicopters using the RTF radio gear.
VANITY – if the results of this show you should have a Big Lama, suck it up or get better. If you feel the need to buy something cool that you can’t fly you’re in trouble.
RC HELI EXPERIENCE –any experience is good and can be reinforced by any stick time – real world or simulated. This item may be a determining factor, but it’s low on my scale.
MECHANICAL ABILITY - I pushed it down because most can learn and the forum will explain endlessly
TOLERANCE FOR DAMAGING YOUR HELICOPTER – this is what killed my spirit. If it were more wide spread it should be first. Perhaps it should be no more than a footnote. But if breaking a perfectly good heli will ruin your day, find a new hobby. It’s a psychological dysfunction that I have. It hurts me to wear things out and it just kills me to break things. I can’t survive this hobby without psychiatric help. I found that I can mess with planes OK but my helicopters have always found terra-firma to be a bad ending to a good movie.
Soloboss (aka Mark)
07-07-2009 | 05:09 PM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
PUGH method decision chart? I thought all of my old buddies in the Capital Heath Users Group went into garden railroading after the demise of Heath/Zenith. This discussion has a familiar ring to it. Perhaps one of the goals ought to be G-scale loco busting with scale Hellfires. That would sort out the engineers from the accountants in the group. The PUGH idea is a good one, but someone will have to start it and make it easy to build online. That is beyond my keen.
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07-07-2009 | 07:46 PM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
Years ago I posted instructions for building a bottle rocket launcher mounted on a heli. For obvious reasons the post was gleaned from the forum 
Pugh done correctly is excellent, but if you've messed with it you know there's a bunch of brain cells gonna get burned alive before it's done. The reliable 'old tech' flow chart is good. Handled as an "If/Then" progression, with each answer a class of helicopter may be lost as the question/answer progresses. The trick seems to be getting the questions in order. I guess the only way to get this going is to give it a go.
I'm thinking that putting helicopters into several classifications is a place to start. Start with 5 classes. Each class may have several helicopters in it. That way the guy with the highest aspirations and the big budget and the natural ability and the willingness to practice will have the 500 and up class available. And the fliers in my group will have mCX, Big Lama or a decent flight sim as their final destination. HAH! There we go, the first two classes are set.
My thoughts follow;
Class 5 = ARF Kit or custom 500 class or larger. Biggest, baddest helicopters, yet they are the easiest to fly. The worthy flier gets the maximum reward for the maximum budget and potentially the biggest loss. But the flier in this class feels it's worth it. Pair this with a good simulator and lots of stick time.
Class 4 = ARF 450 – 500 class. Requires mechanical ability and collective pitch helicopter theory. Build it your way and be willing to practice.
Class 3 = Custom built fixed pitch and RTF collective pitch. Include Blade 400, Guru Z custom fixed pitch with gyro and tail rotor. Price around $400 with a DX6i or equivalent.
Class 2 = RTF FP helicopters. These are excellent trainers and extremely durable. Cost is
~$100 delivered. For the flier who: is on a limited budget for new purchase and repair, is wanting something uncomplicated and upgradeable at low cost, the flier who wants to experiment and learn the concept without getting too serious, really doesn’t want to practice.
Class 1 = Coaxial from the mCX to the other very worthy contenders in the class. Include the Big Lama and the other large scale coaxials. Or for those with more curiosity than need for hardware, a good sim will let virtual fliers work with helicopters and airplanes in all sorts of flavors. Virtual or real world, if the flier is happy, we're all happy.
Comments are welcome. Solo
Pugh done correctly is excellent, but if you've messed with it you know there's a bunch of brain cells gonna get burned alive before it's done. The reliable 'old tech' flow chart is good. Handled as an "If/Then" progression, with each answer a class of helicopter may be lost as the question/answer progresses. The trick seems to be getting the questions in order. I guess the only way to get this going is to give it a go.
I'm thinking that putting helicopters into several classifications is a place to start. Start with 5 classes. Each class may have several helicopters in it. That way the guy with the highest aspirations and the big budget and the natural ability and the willingness to practice will have the 500 and up class available. And the fliers in my group will have mCX, Big Lama or a decent flight sim as their final destination. HAH! There we go, the first two classes are set.
My thoughts follow;
Class 5 = ARF Kit or custom 500 class or larger. Biggest, baddest helicopters, yet they are the easiest to fly. The worthy flier gets the maximum reward for the maximum budget and potentially the biggest loss. But the flier in this class feels it's worth it. Pair this with a good simulator and lots of stick time.
Class 4 = ARF 450 – 500 class. Requires mechanical ability and collective pitch helicopter theory. Build it your way and be willing to practice.
Class 3 = Custom built fixed pitch and RTF collective pitch. Include Blade 400, Guru Z custom fixed pitch with gyro and tail rotor. Price around $400 with a DX6i or equivalent.
Class 2 = RTF FP helicopters. These are excellent trainers and extremely durable. Cost is
~$100 delivered. For the flier who: is on a limited budget for new purchase and repair, is wanting something uncomplicated and upgradeable at low cost, the flier who wants to experiment and learn the concept without getting too serious, really doesn’t want to practice.
Class 1 = Coaxial from the mCX to the other very worthy contenders in the class. Include the Big Lama and the other large scale coaxials. Or for those with more curiosity than need for hardware, a good sim will let virtual fliers work with helicopters and airplanes in all sorts of flavors. Virtual or real world, if the flier is happy, we're all happy.
Comments are welcome. Solo
07-09-2009 | 08:46 PM
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
Do recall a CX2 launching a bottle rocket on YouTube. Should have known the early adopters of the CX2 had something to do with it. The 5 Classes you suggest seem reasonable. Applications such as pattern flying or video platforms cut across Classes and are discussed elsewhere so they may as well be ignored as this thing gets put together. I am looking forward to watching the idea grow.
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07-09-2009 | 08:53 PM
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From: Fort Wayne,
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
Could it be that simple? A new flier could start at the level the is appropriate and jump in. A flier looking to move up can determine the level he is current at and go up one or more levels. Tonight is seems very simple with a basic breakdown of classes.
I have to work on this to complicate it some more.
I have to work on this to complicate it some more.
07-11-2009 | 07:35 AM
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From: Cleveland, UNITED KINGDOM
RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
ORIGINAL: soloboss
Somewhere in my piles of stuff I've lost your first name. I apologize for that.
I actually put the budget third. My first question is where do you want to end up? My answer is always, ''Before I can tell you what to buy, I need to know where you're going.'' I did struggle with what to lead with and money kept coming to the top, but in the end I decided that the expectations that a flier has for his final destination might win. Somehow the money thing does seem to keep moving up the list, so I'll go with your thought on that one.
I can move the budget item later. First we need a good list of things to consider when a new flier asks where to start - or what's next?
DESIRED END RESULT - there's no reason to talk about a 500 class 3D heli if the flier wants to fly scale patterns in the back yard of a tight residential area. For some fliers a nice coaxial will do very nicely. No reason to be embarrassed about that if it’s what you want. For many, this is a second or third hobby and that will make a difference in the choices out there. What looks cool on the shelf may actually be a determining factor if the flier is only going to fiddle with this hobby.
WILLINGNESS TO PRACTICE/SIM - a flier who won't practice is doomed. It really makes little difference what you want to fly. Gotta practice or get good at building static display helicopters.
FUNDING - ''I want it'' doesn't get you very far. And as the hobby sucks the flier deeper into the sport, the FUNDING may change as your priorities change. But funding must be dealt with at the time the ''What to buy'' decision is made.
NATURAL PHYSICAL ABILITY –this will be the frustration that sidelines a lot of fliers. It can be overcome with a willingness to practice, but it should be part of the “Where do I start” as well as the “What’s next” decisions. Many do well with a 450 CP as the first bird. Some never progress beyond a nice coaxial. It's a cruel fact of life that ability is a determining factor as far as final success and budget.
FLYING AREA – when you have achieved your final goal, where do you want to fly? And if you have to transport a 500 class CP on the subway to get to an open area that might become a barricade to you success.
GEAR THE FLIER HAS or WILL PURCHASE - relevant for the ''What's next?'' question. I have no idea how to build this into the decision making process. If you aren’t going to get a computerized TX you are limiting yourself no matter what you fly. You can do it the hard way. It wasn’t that many years ago there were no Gyros and helicopters did get flown. Those guys were good. And several of us fiddle with helicopters using the RTF radio gear.
VANITY – if the results of this show you should have a Big Lama, suck it up or get better. If you feel the need to buy something cool that you can’t fly you’re in trouble.
RC HELI EXPERIENCE –any experience is good and can be reinforced by any stick time – real world or simulated. This item may be a determining factor, but it’s low on my scale.
MECHANICAL ABILITY - I pushed it down because most can learn and the forum will explain endlessly
TOLERANCE FOR DAMAGING YOUR HELICOPTER – this is what killed my spirit. If it were more wide spread it should be first. Perhaps it should be no more than a footnote. But if breaking a perfectly good heli will ruin your day, find a new hobby. It’s a psychological dysfunction that I have. It hurts me to wear things out and it just kills me to break things. I can’t survive this hobby without psychiatric help. I found that I can mess with planes OK but my helicopters have always found terra-firma to be a bad ending to a good movie.
Soloboss (aka Mark)
Somewhere in my piles of stuff I've lost your first name. I apologize for that.
I actually put the budget third. My first question is where do you want to end up? My answer is always, ''Before I can tell you what to buy, I need to know where you're going.'' I did struggle with what to lead with and money kept coming to the top, but in the end I decided that the expectations that a flier has for his final destination might win. Somehow the money thing does seem to keep moving up the list, so I'll go with your thought on that one.
I can move the budget item later. First we need a good list of things to consider when a new flier asks where to start - or what's next?
DESIRED END RESULT - there's no reason to talk about a 500 class 3D heli if the flier wants to fly scale patterns in the back yard of a tight residential area. For some fliers a nice coaxial will do very nicely. No reason to be embarrassed about that if it’s what you want. For many, this is a second or third hobby and that will make a difference in the choices out there. What looks cool on the shelf may actually be a determining factor if the flier is only going to fiddle with this hobby.
WILLINGNESS TO PRACTICE/SIM - a flier who won't practice is doomed. It really makes little difference what you want to fly. Gotta practice or get good at building static display helicopters.
FUNDING - ''I want it'' doesn't get you very far. And as the hobby sucks the flier deeper into the sport, the FUNDING may change as your priorities change. But funding must be dealt with at the time the ''What to buy'' decision is made.
NATURAL PHYSICAL ABILITY –this will be the frustration that sidelines a lot of fliers. It can be overcome with a willingness to practice, but it should be part of the “Where do I start” as well as the “What’s next” decisions. Many do well with a 450 CP as the first bird. Some never progress beyond a nice coaxial. It's a cruel fact of life that ability is a determining factor as far as final success and budget.
FLYING AREA – when you have achieved your final goal, where do you want to fly? And if you have to transport a 500 class CP on the subway to get to an open area that might become a barricade to you success.
GEAR THE FLIER HAS or WILL PURCHASE - relevant for the ''What's next?'' question. I have no idea how to build this into the decision making process. If you aren’t going to get a computerized TX you are limiting yourself no matter what you fly. You can do it the hard way. It wasn’t that many years ago there were no Gyros and helicopters did get flown. Those guys were good. And several of us fiddle with helicopters using the RTF radio gear.
VANITY – if the results of this show you should have a Big Lama, suck it up or get better. If you feel the need to buy something cool that you can’t fly you’re in trouble.
RC HELI EXPERIENCE –any experience is good and can be reinforced by any stick time – real world or simulated. This item may be a determining factor, but it’s low on my scale.
MECHANICAL ABILITY - I pushed it down because most can learn and the forum will explain endlessly
TOLERANCE FOR DAMAGING YOUR HELICOPTER – this is what killed my spirit. If it were more wide spread it should be first. Perhaps it should be no more than a footnote. But if breaking a perfectly good heli will ruin your day, find a new hobby. It’s a psychological dysfunction that I have. It hurts me to wear things out and it just kills me to break things. I can’t survive this hobby without psychiatric help. I found that I can mess with planes OK but my helicopters have always found terra-firma to be a bad ending to a good movie.
Soloboss (aka Mark)
I Think money has a huge bearing on the situation as lots would love to have a certain heli but due to age income etc its just not practical or possible to buy fly and crash so inevitably this will remove some options right from the start.
Regarding all your other points im totally with you with all the criteria mentioned above as very valid. I think desired end result is very important as you have said some want to go like me into 3d then some are just for scale flight and more into looks of their heli than acrobatic ability and again this would have a very strong influence on initial decission making.
I dont think mechanical ability carries much weight at the start as most with little or none have been guided through from the people here on the forum so learn as they go.
I also think that willingness to practice has a big role to play if the person in question has not much time or drive to practice then some heli`s just will not be for them
07-11-2009 | 08:36 AM
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From: Fort Wayne,
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
Okay, Ian - I'm with you on the money as the lead item. You convinced me.
If a person wants extremely stable and precise pattern / scale flight and has a huge budget he might go for the best of the best simulator and a really tricked out coaxial and be fully satisfied with the result. No matter what we fly, there's always someone out there who is willing to make custom components for exceptionally cool looking aircraft. What I'm saying is that if a person has very low expectations for performance flight, but has a big budget, he'll be able to find a way to spend all of his money. Inversely, as you said, if a flier has high expectations and a limited budget, our advice has to deal with that. Budget moves to the top.
So we have 5 categories of aircraft. Now I need to work the criteria that will lead to determining which slot the flier fits into. I thought this would be a daunting task, but it's sort of fun and easier than expected. And I doubt that anyone will care about this little project when it's done. But it is good food for thought.
Mark (aka Soloboss)
If a person wants extremely stable and precise pattern / scale flight and has a huge budget he might go for the best of the best simulator and a really tricked out coaxial and be fully satisfied with the result. No matter what we fly, there's always someone out there who is willing to make custom components for exceptionally cool looking aircraft. What I'm saying is that if a person has very low expectations for performance flight, but has a big budget, he'll be able to find a way to spend all of his money. Inversely, as you said, if a flier has high expectations and a limited budget, our advice has to deal with that. Budget moves to the top.
So we have 5 categories of aircraft. Now I need to work the criteria that will lead to determining which slot the flier fits into. I thought this would be a daunting task, but it's sort of fun and easier than expected. And I doubt that anyone will care about this little project when it's done. But it is good food for thought.
Mark (aka Soloboss)
07-11-2009 | 03:27 PM
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From: Cypress,
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RE: We need to build a worksheet that will resolvesolve the advice problem. Questions about budget, expe
OK for what it's worth, this newbie will toss his thoughts in here. Remember I am a newbie with a CX2 so I'm dangerous (but having lots of fun). I took your criteria and modified things. Here it is:
Objective
Determine what to buy, where to start, and what to get next?
Assumptions
Willing to practice.
Will purchase or download a simulator.
Possess average mechanical aptitude.
Little or no prior RC heli experience.
Suggested Dimensions/Criteria/Input
NATURAL PHYSICAL ABILITY This is important, but how to assess? Suggest go to LHS and use sim there.
TOLERANCE FOR DAMAGING YOUR HELICOPTER Important and related to ongoing funding.
DESIRED END RESULT The goal is key.
FUNDING Both initial capital outlay and ongoing maintenance and average cost per crash.
FLYING AREA Both size and average wind conditions.
Removed
RC HELI EXPERIENCE Covered under assumptions
MECHANICAL ABILITY Covered under assumptions
WILLINGNESS TO PRACTICE/SIM Covered under assumptions
VANITY Not sure this is relevant for the given objectives.
GEAR THE FLIER HAS or WILL PURCHASE - not relevant for the stated objective. If the newbie doesn't have it, the newbie will buy it. If the newbie has it, the newbie can deduct that from cost.
Hope you don't mind the sudden changes in direction here but you are quoting Patton, so I figure you'll take this as constructive criticism/help.
Also, since I'm a newbie and since I've already bracketed my likely next step, I'm more than willing to be your guinea pig on the tool. And again thanks for building this thought experiment something good may come from this!!
Mack
Objective
Determine what to buy, where to start, and what to get next?
Assumptions
Willing to practice.
Will purchase or download a simulator.
Possess average mechanical aptitude.
Little or no prior RC heli experience.
Suggested Dimensions/Criteria/Input
NATURAL PHYSICAL ABILITY This is important, but how to assess? Suggest go to LHS and use sim there.
TOLERANCE FOR DAMAGING YOUR HELICOPTER Important and related to ongoing funding.
DESIRED END RESULT The goal is key.
FUNDING Both initial capital outlay and ongoing maintenance and average cost per crash.
FLYING AREA Both size and average wind conditions.
Removed
RC HELI EXPERIENCE Covered under assumptions
MECHANICAL ABILITY Covered under assumptions
WILLINGNESS TO PRACTICE/SIM Covered under assumptions
VANITY Not sure this is relevant for the given objectives.
GEAR THE FLIER HAS or WILL PURCHASE - not relevant for the stated objective. If the newbie doesn't have it, the newbie will buy it. If the newbie has it, the newbie can deduct that from cost.
Hope you don't mind the sudden changes in direction here but you are quoting Patton, so I figure you'll take this as constructive criticism/help.
Also, since I'm a newbie and since I've already bracketed my likely next step, I'm more than willing to be your guinea pig on the tool. And again thanks for building this thought experiment something good may come from this!!
Mack
