PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Okay, I've got an issue...several, actually, and maybe too many factors to sort it all out. First, I bought a 989 Super Brain from the LHS a few months ago, preparing to go into Electrics. I have a friend who is into them and he's been guiding me along. Buying the 989 was my idea. As soon as I opened the 989 I thought it looked used, and I've since found out that there are items that should have been there. I think the LHS owner took it back from somebody and put it back up on the shelf. Probably didn't believe that it had a problem, who can say? He told me it was new, it obviously was not.

We both finished up our planes two weeks ago and we ran them for a short while on the stand, he ran his for not too long, and I ran mine even less. Mine was a 3-Cell 2100 Common Sense pack (NEW), his was a 2-Cell 1250 Common Sense pack. Afterward we decided to see how the 989 worked and we hooked it up and set it to charge. The voltage started dropping, and kept dropping. We decided to try and find out why it would be doing that in the manual, and couldn't find anything in there. By that time it had bottomed out. We hoped it was part of the cycle, but it didn't come up and then gave the low battery voltage error. Because he had run his longer than mine, we thought perhaps he had damaged his battery and we tried mine. DOWN went the voltage on mine, and we disconnected it but apparently not in time. We noticed then that both packs had puffed up. I called the battery Mfr. and MRC, the people who made the 989, and both of them said that we had ruined the batteries running them down. So, when we had some time we checked out the installation, and both of our ESCs had low voltage cutoffs turned on, to LiPo. So, we finally knew we had not damaged them ourselves. Common Sense are widely used and considered to be pretty good.
I've been trying to research this and see who else might be having this problem with the 989s, but I'm amazed at the cryptic references people make and don't show any details. I'm always a little behind the learning curve on these new electrics anyway, but thousands of people wouldn't be flying them if they're all as frail as this stuff I've been checking out here.
Obviously, I'm pissed off at my LHS dealer for lying to me and selling me a used unit as new. But I can't seem to find out if there are real issues with these out there. I was in San Antonio last week and I met some guys from an electrics club and they told me that these 989's have a reputation for killing batteries. I can't rely on that information as I was at a swap meet and one of those guys (miraculously) had a competitor's charger there for sale.

I'm just trying to find out what the real poop is on these 989s, I see some guys swear by them out here and I see some guys swear AT them. I bought a couple of thousand dollars of electric batteries, motors, and ARFs and my buddy talked me out of holding a garage sale and getting rid of it all at our next club meeting. He's right, of course, thousands of people are flying electrics now. I DO think that the manufacturers are failing to provide detailed safeguards that we as modelers need to know, and I think it benefits them through repeat sales...UNNECESSARY repeat sales. I followed my E-Flite ESC setup card item by item, but there was nothing there that put any emphasis on the importance of THIS setting versus THAT setting (or what could happen if you failed to get it right). It was just pure luck that we got those details right during setup, and we both admitted to each other that we didn't have any idea that it was crucial. I can promise you this; If I find a manufacturer that DOES exercise that kind of caution and concern for me as the buyer by giving me detailed & specific warnings, they will be the ones getting my dollars after this.

I don't think we killed those batteries and I am highly suspicious of this 989 Super Brain. I'd love to hear some input from you folks and maybe some experiences. I don't want to hear the good ones (Sorry), I am quite sure these work for people just fine most of the time. I want to hear ISSUES that some have had concerning LiPo charging. In the meantime, we are going to experiment with one or two other chargers and ask around about this at our club meeting in a few days. I have a STACK of brand new batteries and although I'm probably going to stick with this and figure it out, I'd rather sell them all than worry each time that I go flying that I'm going to kill them when I recharge them. If they really are that frail, get ready for Jim's garage sale.

And last question, what are LiMn batteries?

Jim

normgoyer

Hi, Canoe tell me if you were working with the LiMn cells as these sound like Lithium Maganese which I believe are related to the Li-Ion cells which have a different low voltage cut off. Li-Ions are 3.6 volts and LiPolys are 3.7. I had similar problems with my LiIons untill I junked my chargers and went with two Astro flights, one 109 was for Li Polys and the other 109 was for Li-Ion. All problems ceased.
Norm

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Hi Norm,

No, these are LiPos I'm dealing with (I double-checked).

I was reading an advertisement for the LiMn's in M.A.N. and was curious about them, seeing as I'm having such a time with my first two LiPo's. They were making all sorts of claims about them, they drilled them, hammered them, etc. I was wondering why they weren't bigger sellers if they were so rugged and great. Figured they might be heavier or something. After all, NiMH are awesome light NiCads on steroids, but not too light. I thought they might be something along those lines. I just spotted an ad for Lithion Ions in the Feb. Issue on page 136... so those are the A123s people have been talking about. Is that what you use? Do they really have as much power as they are saying?

I'm always willing to learn what's new and different. Can't help it, though. I love my Saitos.....

Jim

normgoyer

Hi Jim, yes I used the Li-Ions that I build from DeWalt power packs. Yes they are super powerful and hold their charge forever and don't datch fire. They are a bit heavier than LiPolys but the safety makes up for it. I buy the packs from dBay for about 90 bucks for 10 cells of 2300 ma each and make two 5 cell packs that I can use single or in pairs for more ma. I am flying three large electrics with these batteries. I build them into the plane and charge through the balancer wire. So far not problem one. But, the Astro 109 Li Ion did solve my charging problems with them. Tina and I spent our honeymoon at Lake Sebago in 1947 and a few years back I climbed your big Katadan in Baxter State Park. My daughter lives in Hadley Ma and I am from Northampton, MA. Norm

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

I've never flown planes (when I could avoid it) that were sensitive to a little more weight, probably because I tend to build them a little extra tough and I like them to accomodate the weight. I even open up the bottoms of the ARFs and re-glue everything and add bracing here and there. I like your method for acquiring power cells, being a Scottsman myself. I'm going to check out the Astro 109 charger for that. Is the Astro 109 the newest version available?

I live about 45 minutes from Katahdin, and I've yet to climb it to the peak. I climbed Barren Mountain to the cliff faces and Borestone to the top, both this year, both in the Monson area. I'll bet you miss the northeast sometimes. I was in San Antonio Texas last week (I was able to visit with Jim Rice for a while.). I'll be moving back there soon, and I don't think I'll miss this snow and cold too much. Like you, an occasional visit will do me fine! Also, I like to fly, and I try to fly on both flyable weeks here every year. In Texas, year-round flying is possible. But fields are being lost and are changing, and electric is going to be a big factor in keeping some of them in the future. And I may be an expert flyer, but I'm sure a novice when it comes to maintaining healthy batteries that have the word "Lithium" attched to them. Just another RC chapter in my life, I guess!

Thanks, Norm!

Jim

mycarisaser

I have 2 mrc 989 chargers. I bought them when they first came out(had them on preorder) They have been great. I have owned 9 mrc chargers and only had an issue with one of them(was charging in a car that had a bad altinator(sp) and the voltage was going from 11volts to 14 volts and it killed the charger.(but it was my fault and mrc still fixed it for free). Other than that they have been great. The only issues that I have found with the 989s is that the voltage readings are .2volts off from my fluke meter and every once in a while when you hook up the battery and hit charge it says that there is no battery. I unplug the batt and redue it and all is good

I would complain to your lhs and send the charger to back to mrc to get checked out. They have a good service department

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Yes, I'm planning to do that. But right now I've chucked the electrics completely because this thing killed several new batteries. Now I'm putting together some good ol' Saito-powered planes and a gasser to boot. I wasn't going to go back to anything big since the robbers cleaned me out completely, but the larger Saitos (62, 72, 100) and giants/gassers are my former comfort zones, so I suppose I have my total disgust over my 989 charger to thank for that. To be honest, I have a couple thousand bucks worth of brand-new Electrics in my shop, and I hate them. Brushed by one the other day with the back of my hand and it tore the wheel pant right off. This thing is supposed to be able to be tossed in the back seat of my car for the day? Yeah, right.
I think I'll be taken into the world of electrics kicking and screaming. Most of these are going up for sale, still in the boxes.

I'm sorry that I have difficulty hiding my disdain for the electrics and all that comes with them. But there are many, many aspects of the electrics that fall short, starting with very little available information on all aspects of it and extending through none of the providers having standards or working together on standards. They're all doing their own thing. A Saito 100 is just what it is. Most guys are going to know just about how much power that is and what models it fits. I can show you a 35-ish sized electric and then list all the possible motors and battery combos and NONE of them would read much like any of the others. For something that provides truly inferior run times and requires lots of expensive support items, items that are fragile and live for a couple of years at best and then must be replaced at what will by then be an even higher cost, I have to say that my opinion is that it sucks. When my batteries started dying both the battery company and MRC told me that WE were killing the batteries and that we hadn't set our ESCs correctly. In fact, we had set them correctly. Still, guess who gets to pay for the couple hundred dollars in batteries? Not them, they're all too busy passing the buck.
I'm the first guy to tell the other guys that immediate gratification isn't the way to go when they fuss about all kinds of little things on new technologies like the Spektrums. Good technology takes time to work out.

But electrics simply require endless compromises, like building airframes that make the work FRAGILE sound sturdy. Sacrificing flight times and sounding like 8 to 10 minutes is a good flight. 8 to 10 minutes is garbage! Batteries that are subject to all sorts of threats, threats that are not even fully understoof by the battery and charger Mfrs,batteries that require constant recharging, and recharging them is TIME-CONSUMING and robs you of more flying time, unless you spend a whole lot of money on lots of extra batteries and adding extra hatches and mounts for battery switch-outs, batteries that last a couple of years at most. Batteries that are all given different numbers and that give varying model information and identifying information from manufacturer to manufacturer. Saitos last 10 or 15 years and don't even act tired. Increase the tank size just a little bit and 45-minute flight times are just everyday stuff.

It is my opinion, and I don't really care what others think, that truly viable electric flight has not arrived yet.
When they give 30 to 45 minute flights, they will have achieved viability in THAT respect, providing the frames don't have to be specially modified and lightened for the purpose.
When all the manufacturers standardize the models and sizes and power and motor systems, they'll be making it a better application for modelers, and I'd consider that acceptable.
When the batteries charge quickly and nobody's life or home is in danger from charging them, that will be acceptable.
I've already heard about the Lithium Ions that charge quickly and are not so dangerous, but again, that's new and that means that it has not even neared its pinnacle or even a reasonable level of viability, everybody is still trying this and that throughout the world of electric flight.

It's not fun for me in the least, I do not have faith in it and I do not trust almost any aspect of it, and THAT is the bottom line for a modeler.

We'll see how they are in a few years.

Jim

normgoyer

Hi Jim, boy are you wrong. Electrics have revived this hobby and will probably save our flying sites, especially those close to houses. But I do respect your right not to change, enjoy our hobby the way you want. Norm

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

For what it's worth, Norm, you're the only one who made a convincing argument about doing it your way, and I do appreciate your time. Unfortunately I had already spent a small fortune setting up to do it the LiPo way, and if I'm starting over and spending another bundle I'm doing it in a way that I know will be a sure-fire way that works for me, I'll save the electrics for dabbling and experimentation once I move back to Texas..right now I have my work cut out for me refilling a whole stable of winged pretties, thanks to our local hoodlums.
I agree with you about the electrics saving many fields. But I'll tell you the truth. Right now, if all we were ever allowed to do was fly electrics in the future using the confounding methods and technology and lack of standardization they are using now, I'd start combing all the auto traders for a Mach 1 to restore and then hang up my radios.
I doubt it will come to that. Eventually at some point when I can see rhyme, reason, and decent flight times in the electrics I'll give it some thought.
Oh, and Norm, didn't you get the memo? I'm never wrong.

Blue skies!

Jim

mycarisaser

Jim that was the best arguement for ic planes I have ever read. I started with nitro trucks and had loads of issues and they always needed to be tuned(had to rebuild after a few gallons through it(not fun). I went to electric and love the plug and play aspect of it BUT your right planes and trucks built for electric motors suck well weaker than the ic motor ones. So All I build are IC planes and truck and convert them to electric.
I havent flown a gass plane since I was little(dont really remember it to well) so I dont know if they are easer to work on than a nitro truck motor but if it is I can see your point. The nitro trucks have swayed me so much from them I havnt even thought about going back. Also the electric motor in my truck puts out more power that any nitro motor that would have fit in it(love the torque and rpm range of an electric)

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

mycarisaser, Planes are a bit different than trucks. They gotta be just so or they come down from the sky when you don't want them to. A truck can carry a heavy battery pack and probably LiPos aren't used that much ( I could be wrong) on trucks. NiMH is probably big in trucks these days, and I can see a truck having massive power. I went into planes and didn't look back at trucks, so we diverged into exact opposite directions.
Nitro trucks are different from planes too. To me, they're the equivalent of the electrics in planes now. Really a hassle. I don't get into a hobby to LIVE in a hassle quagmire, and oviously you decided the same thing.. Now, on Planes the new generations of Glows are really dependable, especially the 4-strokes like Saito.

Jim

normgoyer

Hi It has been fun discussing the pros and cons of power systems with you. Norm

mycarisaser

I just got back into planes in june of 07 . I built a plane that would run off the same 5s lipo that my truck runs(to save money). I can say that flying to me has been more addicting than drugs. I crashed a plane when I was young and was scared to fly(must of been really bad but like I said i was a kid at the time) I am glad I got over the fear . I built a flymodels polecat 50 and converted it. All I can say is that its a blast. unlimited vertical power. The plane is 5lbs and 6oz with 1085watts. I will be honest If some would show me a IC plane and its advantiges over electric I would probley try it out but like I said the nitro truck engines were a pain in the butt and had to do loads of cleaning and maintance. Itried some of the smaller electric parkflyers and I agree they are weak fragile planes.

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

ya gotta give us a real first name to use, that long tag you have takes about five minutes to write! Yeah, the Polecat has some great lines, I've been eyeing it and eyeing it. Kind of a cross-bred Sport and pylon lines.
All I can say about flying glow in planes is to spend a bit more on the motor and buy the appropriate Saito for the bird, you'll never be sorry. I would use them either upright or on their sides, inverted still works fine but as they get bigger they tend to require glow at lower throttle settings. The Polecat looked good for side-mounted with that big flat cowl. Also, if you do, run Wildcat fuel for the 4-strokes. Saitos make all the difference.

So, what kind of run-times are you getting from yours?

Jim

mycarisaser

With a 4350mah battery I get about 15 mins of flight. I am thinking of trying my brother-inlaws 10,000mah lipo to see if that will extend the run times a bit. About 40 mins would be great. There is only one guy at the field by me that is a electric guy. All the others fly glow or gas. I am not a member b/c I have a 40 acre turf farm feild in front of my house. I have my own flying site. I need to stop by again to see there stuff and see how it all performs. Always wanting to learn more. Thanks, Matt

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Matt,
15 minutes is not too bad. The weight of the 10,000 would very likely affect the performance. These aren't like trucks, they can't bear too much extra weight like a truck can. It loads the wing and it has to work the engine harder to do the same things, and it affects how well it performs too. 12 or 15 extra ounces on a plane like the Polecat and you've got a completely different set of flying characteristics.

Jim

mycarisaser

I didnt think of how much it weighed. It the weight of over 2 of my batteries. The plane has a wingloading right now of 25 oz/sq .ft. and a cubic wing loading of 13.4wcl
with the 10,000mah(36.2oz battery[:-]) in there the wing loading would be like 31.3oz/sq.ft. and a wcl of 16.7. Man that would be a huge change in how it would fly(and mainly land). Thanks I think you just saved me from a crash. I will leave them for the trucks.

normgoyer

Hi, instead of flying for 30 mins, land after 15 and put another battery in that has been charged in advanced, take off and fly for another 15 and you got 30 mins. That is how I fly my Cub and PT-19. Weight kills the performance of all aircraft, large and small. Norm

mycarisaser

Thats what I do now


Well I had my first issue with my 989 tonight and it almost cought my house on fire. I pluged my battery in and hit start and of course I had all the stuff set for that battery and After a while I checked on it and the battery swelled twice its size and just started smoking. I threw it out side in it cought fire(WOW it make a hugh flame) What happened was it automaticly went to 6 cell lipo from 5 cell. I wanted to see HOW it happened so I put it back to 5 cell and hit start on the other battery and it jumped back to 6 cell as soon as I hit start. So I put it back to 5 cell again and unplugged the charger and plugged it back in and it went back to 6 cell. WHAT THE F*#%. I did that 4 times and all 4 times it went back to 6 cell form the 5 cell I set it on. After messing with it for about a few it stopped doing it and stayed on 5 cell???????????????? I have never had an issue before this and I lost a $220.00 battery tonight. I am kind of PISSED!

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Matt,
Not ONCE have I ever had a Saito try to burn my house down. However, that damned 989 I got, it has killed batteries like crazy. So suddenly we're about even in losses from our respective 989's. I too am pissed. The first thing they're gonna try to do is tell you you suddenly know nothing and it's something YOU did, remember this post when it happens! I still have more batteries, how about you? Are you feeling brave enough to trust that G^d-blessed P.O.S. to connect to them ever again? I don't remember feeling this frustrated for many, many years about anything.

Let me know what course of action you take with yours, I will follow that with great interest.

Me, for the time being, I'm going to play with my glows and gassers until somebody gives me a reasonable attitude regarding what this crazy hunk of junk is doing. I think I paid 140 or 150 bucks for this MRC 989. Then twice that in dead NEW batteries it killed. Until then I'll rail against electric technology in its current chaotic and undependable state.

Jim

mycarisaser

Unfortuneatly this is the only charger that I have for a 5s lipo. I will be calling MRC monday about this just to see what they say and to let them know hat there was an issue. I still have one more 5s lipo but its no fun flyinf for 15mins then waiting an hour for a charge? I now know to check it after I hit start everytime now(b/c it might change itself)

I am really starting to see the conveince of an IC plane..
I think when I do have money to get some new batteries I am going to get some of the cheaper ones b/c loseing that much at one sucks. I found a few 5s lipos that are a 20C for around $100. (got to have them b/c my truck and plane run off or them and I wont go back to glow in the truck(not enough power and to much maintance) maybe the plane though???)

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

Just the dollar amount you killed would buy you a sweet little Saito just the right size for that bird! You've got a few changes, of course, like an engine mount and a gas tank setup. You should ask some of the guys you fly with, I'm more than sure one of them would be happy to help you set it up for the glow....... ;^)

Or maybe it's time to pick out another bird for your first glow adventure and build that up just for glow from the start. that way you can compare them at the field and fly either way. Providing of course your charger doesn't decide to take another holiday...just like mine.

Jim

normgoyer

Hi All, I am sure that there are many excellent new electric products being introduced into the market place everyday. Many have not been thoroughly proven in the field. I have found that it is always a wiser decision to purchase a proven product, even though it does not have the bells and whistles of the new Whiz Bang 1000. I have strayed from my own rules a few times and have always regretted it. That is why I stick to Astro Flight Chargers, AXi motors, Jeti or Castle ESCs and batteries that are used by contest winners. It costs me more money to start but I am light years ahead of those, even me, with useless products tucked way back on the shelf. Norm

This advice works for household appliances and even cars, I drive VWs, Chevy Suburbans and my wife drives Buicks.

PacificNWSkyPilot

My Feedback: (19)

MRC has been around for 15 years that I know of. LiPos were being touted as the great new thing. Either Horizon or Great Planes brought it to my LHS. Obviously, one can't trust anybody these days. This supposedly IS what the competitors are now using, and you're saying that it's not. According to everything I can determine, there is NOTHING on the market that doesn't have some serious issues. The plain fact is, I have the Saitos and the Gassers, and THOSE are the proven technology, used by the winners. So far, electrics are nothing more than smoke and mirrors to me. The NiCads are too heavy and don't hold enough, the NiMH's hold more but are just as heavy (and still do not hold enough), and the LiPos hold more but in my opinion not enough still, and they are extremely volatile and dangerous, and on the flip side of that coin, they are fragile and extremely costly. In my estimation, ALL of the new electric items are pretty much "Whiz Bang 1000" items. The rules I won't stray from are using the Saitos and the gassers again, I regretted straying from them here...yes, indeed. I'll wait until I'm confident of the electrics, possibly in the future. Right now, it's a crap shoot every time. In the meantime, I'm sure I'll be able to sell all of this to the local enthusiasts and save them some money.

Sorry to sound so set in my opinion here, but I paid a LOT for that privelige. Money that I could have used buying something that would last and be dependable.

Jim

normgoyer

Hi Jim, always do what is in your heart and in your head. The same thoughts were around in the late 1950s about jet engines, now the market has turned in that direction. How many successful full scale aircraft manufacturers are there without a jet, none, even the fastest growing company in general aviation, Cirrus, has just announced their new jet will be ready for Oshkosh (AirVenture.,) Piper is hard at work on their jet and Cessna's Citation series has kept that company at the forefront. How long did it take for modelers to accept 4-strokes, a very long time, how about Hybrid cars? Anything new takes awhile to catch on but those companies that waited too long, got left in the dust. Face it, whether you like it or not, electrics are here to stay, NASA is even test flying an electric aircraft along with a fuel cell version. I have always had the desire to be the first and not the last. I had the first DynaJet engine in the late 1940s, the first Quadra in 1970s, the first MRC electric (orange foam) soon after. I have been flying and writing about aircraft for many years and I have to state that the electric movement has meant more to me in shear enjoyment, ease of flying, ease of adjustment and super cleanliness than any other new process. Love my Old Town Canoe which sets on top of my VW Westfalia Kamper. Norm

a mix of old and new products that have stood the test of time and acceptance is the only way to live an adventurous life