sharpshooter223

here is one thing to think about, how much do you really need a brushless motor. go a few years back before the brushless motors had really become popular and people were making planes with speed 400 brushed motors and the planes were flying excellent. and then expensive brushless motors came around and all of a sudden it seems like if a plane is powered by a brushed motor it will fall like a rock. so is it really worth paying a ton of money on a rediculously priced brushless and brushless speed control for your plane? it seems like a brushed motor works just as well, but costs less.

ozrcboy

Yes - you could buy a basic speed 400 system for about $10 for motor + gearbox and then $20 for a brushed speed controller (these are Australian prices). Or I could just buy a 160w outrunner and 18A brushless speed controller for about $40.

I understand your point - we are underestimating the utility of the humble 400 brushed motor, but its not like a new brushed setup is that much cheaper than a new brushless setup at the low end of the market.

As planes get heavier yes you tend to need to spend more bucks, but this will probably change soon too.

Cheers,
oz.

Time Pilot

I don't think you need them, but as the costs come down, there doesn't seem to be much point in using them. My first brushless motor system cost me less than my first brushed motor system AND it's been more reliable, cheaper to run (no burnt out motors) and more powerful.

Hard to beat that.

Fliprob17

In my honest opinion, you can't even compare the two. My first plane was/is a brushed SPEED 480 and it flies like a dog. Incredibly heavy and lacking overall torque and power. If I flew it now after flying the brushless sytems, I would probably crash it because I am so use to flying with power now, and using that power to get out of trouble. The brushed system could not get me out of any trouble, just had to deal with the situation, did not have the power or torque. My second plane (and everyone since) was a brushless setup, and the difference is ridiculous [:-] The brushless motors have a much better power to weight ratio, no brushes to replace, more torque and power...etc

Yes you are going to pay a bit more, but in the long run.......it is really the only way to go The flying experience on a brushless system is much more enjoyable.

jooNorway

I would not agree 100% with this... I would state it this way: Some years ago some wery FEW pilots did fly small motorgliders at 1,5 - 2 meter with pretty limp performance. The choices spent from 280 to 700 brushed motors, and most modelflyers didn`t see any reason to fly such ships. My 2C only...

I have tried both small "pylonracers" and sailplanes equipped with brushed motors, but the performance were so bad I just put them in the garage. These same planes have got new life and I enjoy them a lot with brushless and LiPo Double the power and reduced weight compared to brushed and NiCd.

Also remember that the revolusion we did have some 4 years ago were not only brushless, but also LiIon. These two things together are a giant leap! Another important factor is the not unknown "gadget-factor" of course. More staff to tweak with, which made this fantastic hobby even more fantastic. Happiness is to always have a packet of gadget on it way to the mailbox

sharpshooter223

i have never seen a brushless setup (motor/speed control) for under 60 bucks. and when it gets that expensive why not just buy and even better glow engine?

critterhunter

You haven't? Then where have you been? I've got several planes with great motor/speed controls bought as combo deals for $20 or less. Example you be a 30 amp Tower Pro ESC along with a BP21, 12T, 18T, or other such motors. Brushed is a dirty word these days. They wear out and do a gradual downslide in performance. They are in general less efficient and with less wide performance windows than a matching brushless motor. Same thing with lipos, at $29 for a 3 cell 20C 2200ma pack I won't even touch a nimh or nicad pack anymore, except for in my TX. Just as gas and balsa are experiencing a slow death in favor of electric and foam, brushed motors and nimh/nicad are going the way of the dinosaur.

sharpshooter223

why are gas an balsa experiencing a slow death, i mean, they are more powerful and they have a lovely noise and exhaust and everything that a real plane would have. why would you want to fly strictly electric when there is such a lovely alternative. i have even seen things that show glow engines have so much more power than a motor that it doesnt even have anywhere to go and is just wasted and that motors that are supposed to be equivalent dotn have that. so when everything begins to cost that much, why spend that much for some wires when you could get so much more for the same price.

sharpshooter223

i honestly dont know what i will do if glow completely dies out. should i start stocking up on engines now?

pilotpete2

While I agree with you about brushless vs brushed motors, you are waaaaaaay off the mark as to gas and balsa experiencing a slow death. Foam has it's place in foamies but balsa/ lite ply still rules in most ARF construction. If by gas you really mean glow power, well the only area glow power is being challenged is in the 1.2 cid and up category, that's where gasoline engines are kicking butt big time as they are the power to cost economy champs. All segments of this great hobby/obsession are growing just fine.
Pete

sharpshooter223

by gas i mean all forms of combustion

sharpshooter223

and there are many people out their trying to challenge glow with their bundles or wire

ozrcboy

Balsa may be reducing as a percentage of the market, but this is more related to market growth in other segments. Once you've done a bit of RC flying you figure out that foam is fun but balsa really does fly best.

Sharpshooter - doubt gas/glow/diesel is not going anywhere quickly, but by the same token it's never going to catch on in the parkflyer market which is by far the fastest growing. So I wouldn't panic about stocking up on motors just yet. Also, I think it will stabilise for a while (probably quite a long time) before going into gradual decline.

When you say you haven't seen a brushless setup for less than $60 and then speak about how glow is better bang for buck I'm taking it that you aren't a parkflyer and are talking about larger aircraft. Mind you - those larger aircraft could never fly on speed 400 brushed motors so we are some way of the starting topic of the thread.

Yes a glow engine can make more power. But is it also heavier, less environmentall friendly, more troublesome to maintain (as are the aircraft that fly on glow) and with fuel costs probably aroudn the same cost, or maybe more expensive in the long run. Electric on the other hand is largely maintenance free, generally results in a lighter plane, and whilst having higher startup costs (including the LiPos) are in the long run probably cheaper to run, and certainly demand much less of your time (like that 15 minutes you spend soaking up the unburnt fuel covering your model after a flight).

For the moment there is probably a point in model size which if you go past glow becomes a significantly cheaper option (certainly in terms of startup costs). However, glow is at the end of its innovation curve - things don't change much. Brushless motors and LiPo batteries on the other hand are being innovated on all the time. 18 months ago a low end brushless system cost $120. Now it costs $20-30. The point is that this is changing, and will probably continue to change.

I reckon we will always have glow because there will always be those who are passionate about internal combustion, who love the exhaust note, etc, etc. But we are well on the way to electric surplanting glow as the most effecient and cost effective form of RC flight.

Cheers,
Oz.

sharpshooter223

ok, first, the enviroment is not going to decline because of glow fuel, im sorry but i call bs on global warming. second, i am talking a bit of larger aircraft but i am also talking about park flyers, there are small engines. and i have found that a glow engine in easier to maintain than a motor, flies longer and smoother, and doesnt have that constant but slow decline in power till the speed control cuts off. it might possibly be a little heavier, but it makes up for it in pure purring power. last, for now until i get to or out of college, i am limited in the places i can go, so i dotn have access to an area where i can fly a plane with the power of a glow or gas engine, so please, i DO see that apperently these brushless are better than a brushed, SO WILL SOMEBODY GIVE ME A LINK TO THESE 20-30 DOLLAR BRUSHLESS SYSTEMS. by the way, when i say system, to me that includes batteries, lipo or nimh, and a charger if they are lipos. im serious, i only have a few bucks right now

ozrcboy

sharpshooter - environment is more than just air pollution. Main issue I was talking about was noise pollution. Threads on RC forums all over the place are full of people saying how as populations grow the number of sanctioned fields were you can fly glow reduce in number as they are shut down due to noise complaints.

You aren't going to get a full system including the LiPo for $20-30 (just the same way that you don't get enough fueld for 200 flights in the price of your glow motor). But you will get a cheery little outrunner and speed controller.

Take a look at http://www.unitedhobbies.com - they have plenty of stuff, but I'm sure there are heaps of others.

Not sure why you are bothering to go to college - seems like you know everything already . Best of luck.

Cheers,
oz.

sharpshooter223

well then we need to set aside land that is mostly just a nature preserve or whatever so the government will go along with it, then we are also allowed to have a field in the middle of it, and the only developement allowed on it is the minor stuff that the rc club does. then you dont have to worry about noise pollution. and how is an rc engine really noise pollution, it just sounds like a wasp or some other type of bug.

critterhunter

Wow, this debate keeps popping up. First, look in this forum for a thread called something like "Cost Of Electrics". It's a month or two old by now. I've covered many of the myths gas RC guys seem to have about electric being more expensive on small OR LARGE planes these days. If you still think that then you either like to drive a porsche and thus don't like spending cheaper for the same performance (Mustang GT), or you simply are unaware of the great prices out there now in electric.

As far as performance goes, name the motor and there is an electric that can probably match or beat it. Gas is heavier than brushless, and that alone gets the electric a clear advantage. You just need to wind the proper motor to the proper specs you want to beat whatever it is in gas you want to replace. I'll admist I know nothing about very lage (8 pounds or higher) planes, but I can throw packages at you all day that are both cheaper and better performing in electric than gas on anything under that.

So you want to "hear" that gas motor scream by? You're about the only one these days. Same reason why I hate hearing a loud Harley come chugging down the street, or some punk kid blasting is rap music in the car next to me. Still want the sound? There are various props in electric that can be thrown onto the motor to produce a good screaming prop wash. Mainly these are less efficient props (not well suited for the specific motor they are on or too flimsy for the RPMs), so I'd rather shoot for the best efficiency and thrust when I select one. However, the best/most efficient prop for my big six foot homemade foam dual boomer turns out to make one killer "weedwacker" noise on my static run tests. This "Big'N', by the way, is running a $25 Hextronicks 35-36 1100 brushless motor. It weights 106 grams, produces 3 pounds of thrust on a 10x7 APC E, and only consumes 25 amps. How much? $25, and it's quality, chrome finish, and effeciency is as good as the Axi or other "brand name" equivs in the $130 range. But what about the battery? $29 20C 3 cell 2200ma Hextroniks pack. ESC? 30 amps for $15.

When you also add in the smell, noise, hassle factor, random engine shut down, and other issues of gas I'll never touch the stuff.

Balsa is getting less and less popular. Why? Too much time to build when you can build as good looking a foam plane with way much less effort and time. Times are changing whether the "control line" people want to believe it or not. Why resist? It's all for the good.

sharpshooter223

critterhunter i disagree with almost everything you just said, and since everybody seems to disagree about everything, how about we just end the debate altogether with my next words because a new debate is starting to form about whether balsa or foam is better, and a debate over BUILDING materials is just lame. some people fly better with combustion and some people fly better with electricity. likewise, some people prefer balsa and some people prefer foam. not only that but many people dotn just enjoy flying but also enjoy building with balsa, where other people just want to skip the building and go straight to flying with foam. so why cant we just agree, there are those of us who love our fual powered planes and those of you who love your electric motors, and also that there are those of us who love our woods and those of you who love your foams. if we just agree on that and not try to crash the other kind of persons market, even seperate our markets, i dont see why anybody should care anymore, cause honestly it seems like half of all pilots prefer gas and half prefer electric, and of those halves, some like to occasionally fly the other kind. but seriously, this debate (and im not talking only about on this forum) has become very rediculous and lame and is starting to breed more lame debates like building materials. so lets just stop before we even start debating airfoils.

dabvid

Personally i dont think electric or glow is better than the other. I am 15 and cant drive to a club whenever i want to but when i can i guarantee i will fly glow and electric planes. Too me you cant beat the sound (and smell) of a glow plane...however you also cant beat the reliability and cleanness of elctric motors. so i will end with a famous saying i heard on a movie "EACH TO THEIR OWN.
regards and happy flying(what ever type that might be)
dave

sharpshooter223

i am 16 and have my license and still cant drive to a club [:@], to me a glow engine is more reliable and even when it does occasionally fail, i know it better than an electric motor and is easier for me to fix. so to me a glow engine is more reliable, im sure its different for other people. i will always fly glow when i can, however, i dont have my own car, or even a job, so i dont have much choise but to fly a slow flyer.

jooNorway

Well...

Since you seems to hate electrics why do you want to start a debate in the "Electric Flight" Forum?

A lot of us who fly electric have flown glow for decades. Myself I had my first takeoff with a glowmodel in 1975...
But today I have only 5-6 glowengines left, and they are for sale all of them. Why? Because glow is best? Propably not for me...
On the other hand I have at least 20 brushless motors, from small 40Watts to 3500 Watt setups. Is this because glow is better? Propably not for me...
Instead of glow I use gas-engines in my large planes. Both IMAC and TUGs. Is it because glow is better? Propably not...
I have some motorgliders between 1,5meter and 3,5 meter WS. Would I ever dream of putting a glow-motor on a beautiful sailplane? Guaranteed not!

In an other thread in this forum you adviced to put a glow engine in a "parkflyer"! A plane which is made for electric only and would vibrate to dust as soon as you started a glow clamped to it? Why did you say so??? Maybe a newbie would have believed in that?

If glow is your choice stay in the proper forum and discuss glow and planes which are meant for glow please. A lot of people still fly glow and will do so for many years still.

Do you want scale sound? Run an inrunner on planetary gear and you get a sound close to a RollsRoyce Merlin. Which glow would sound like anything else than a moped?

Like to build a twin-engine model? Electric is perfect. Instead of tweaking with two glowmotors never getting them running syncroniced two brushless motors just works.

Discussing airfoils: Yes please. More interesting than this. In fact one of the most interesting discussions there is!

Fliprob17

Well then That explains this whole mess now doesn't it Hate to bring it up this way, but you argued for a full page of the forum about something you don't have complete knowledge of, according to your posts. If you are going to argue a point about one fashion of power being better than the other, you better at least know what they are both about and know what you are talking about in terms of comparisons.

Electric power/motors have evolved so intensely over the last few years that if you set the obvious difference of COST aside, they out perform their gas/nitro equivalents in performance. It is all about instant power on tap. The electric power is there immediately when you need it, they do not need to wind up or build RPM's, it is just raw power.

The COST is what does not make sense. Once you start looking over say 4-6 lbs with the airplane, the costs of converting to electric is just ridiculous.

You brought this all on. Step back for a second and read your posts. Plus, this just is not making sense. You want to talk about balsa and light ply planes vs. foamies but don't want to start another "lame" debate about building materials....... huh? So is it airfoils example: symmetrical, semi-symmetrical, low-camber, high-camber etc. or is it the "lame" discussion about building materials: foamies vs. balsa Just trying to figure out what you want to discuss now.

Time Pilot

sharpshooter243,

Has your question about "Is Brushless really needed" been answered?

Is there anything else you need to know, would like to know?

sharpshooter223

ok, i did not make this thread intending it to get into another fuel vs electric debate, i started it to see how much better a brushless could possibly be than a brushed motor. joo, i never said glow was better than a gas engine, gas is better than glow in its areas, i dont even know why you brought that up. i dont want to start any more lame debates, i did not start the debate about balsa vs foam, some other people did, i honestly cannot see what difference it makes what you prefer to build and fly with. and i dont hate electrics, i prefer glow. and you say i dont have complete knowlegde of the subject, but what you dont know is that a year or two ago i acctualyl did do my research and read up on both and thats why i made up my mind, im not some misinformed liberal pansy just saying whatever the hell i feel like. joo, also when i advised to put a glow engine in a park flyer, i was obviously kidding, you have to take stuff like that with some levity. however, now that you take it so seriously, i dont think it would be a bad experiment to try. and when i talk about a lame debate about airfoils, i mean it would be a lame DEBATE over whose is better. an acctual discussion that isnt people just getting mad at eachother for who knows what reason would be good. and the reason i dont stay in the glow forum is because i dont hate electrics and i acctually fly some brushed planes, i dont hate them, and i dont have the space to fly glow right now. seriously, why cant we just accept that other people have different preferences and just drop the subject. if we just go our own ways then nobody CARES.

sharpshooter223

and yes my question about brushless compared to brushed has been answered earlier in the thread, however for now i will still stick to brushed for my own reasons, i also hope that nobody else decides to make a post debating this any further, if you do then you gain the title of jackass