Arming switch - advice.
04-09-2013 | 01:04 PM
#26
RE: Arming switch - advice.
ORIGINAL: smcharg
I love the look of the Emcotec and actually spent some time on the phone trying to get them to understand our (Pattern) needs a little better. The problem with the Emcotec is that if it does fail, it fails closed which means there is still power to the electrical components. They fail it closed because of BEC. Most guys in pattern don't use BEC at all and therefore, need this to fail open. I explained the problem and they said they understood and would consider making an ''F3A'' version but that was almost 9 months ago. I would love for them to design something for our needs. It really is nice albeit quite heavy in comparison to some of the others. The other problem with it (as mentioned to the engineer in Germany) is that all of the Emcotec is still based on electronics. There never is a physical disconnect between the battery and ESC.
<br type=''_moz'' />
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
I'd be all for that if it allowed for the use of the Emcotec Safety Power Switch.
I'd be all for that if it allowed for the use of the Emcotec Safety Power Switch.
<br type=''_moz'' />
It is true that once it is on, if it fails it stays on. But I also spent some time with them and found out that if it is off and fails, it will not turn on or otherwise complete the circuit unless there is a hard short in it, which they have never seen. I'll keep using them until the rule is changed. If it is changed I cannot understand why this device would be deemed unacceptable.
If my plane is sitting in the pits two failures need to happen. One would be a hard short in the Emcotec switch to allow power to the battery. Any other kind of failure and it will not turn on.
Then, I would also need to have my ESC fail, since it will not arm if it does not see a radio signal. But let's say the radio is on for some reason.
Then after both the Emcotec switch AND the ESC failing I would also have to have the master switch (switch) on AND have the throttle kill off (slider) AND the throttle stick would have to be off idle before the prop would turn. That seems pretty safe to me.
Of course I suppose you could argue that if the ESC fails then it might arm without the radio signal. But that still requires TWO simultaneous failures.
The only thing the Emcotec will not do is turn off in the air if it fails while ON.
Here is the last email I got from them:
Dear Bill
1) If plane is flying what happens if the SPS unit stops working correctly? Will power still be connected to the motor from the battery??
It depends on what get broken, this we will not know. If the MosFet gets open then it will turn off, if it makes a short circuit then it stays on.
2) Is there any way that once the battery is connected to the SPS and prior to removing the magnetic plug that something can happen to the SPS unit that will result in power be passed to the ESC/motor?
If there is not a short, then if you not swich on it will stay off.
Ich hoffe, ich konnte Ihnen behilflich sein und verbleibe mit freundlichen Grüßen
Dipl. Ing. (FH) Andreas Peukert
Entwicklung Elektronik / Support
==========================================
EMCOTEC GmbH
embedded controller technologies
Waldstr. 21
D - 86517 Wehringen
Tel. +49 (0) 8234 / 95 98 950
Fax +49 (0) 8234 / 95 98 959
www.emcotec.de
www.rc-electronic.com
Handelsregister Augsburg: HRB 16761
Geschäftsführer: Robert Hussmann
USt.Id.-Nr.: DE 198591085
==========================================
================================================== ==========
Informationen dieser Email sind urheberrechtlich geschützt und vertraulich!
Das Verbreiten der Informationen ist nur mit Freigabe der EMCOTEC GmbH
erlaubt. Unerlaubte Verwendung, Reproduktion oder Weitergabe kann
sowohl zivilrechtlich als auch strafrechtlich verfolgt werden.
================================================== ==========
Proprietary and confidential. Distribution only by express authority of
EMCOTEC GmbH!
================================================== ==========
04-10-2013 | 01:53 PM
#27
RE: Arming switch - advice.
Yep that's my argument for why electronic arming switches like the Emcotec should be permitted by any future rule re: arming switches!
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
It is true that once it is on, if it fails it stays on. But I also spent some time with them and found out that if it is off and fails, it will not turn on or otherwise complete the circuit unless there is a hard short in it, which they have never seen. I'll keep using them until the rule is changed. If it is changed I cannot understand why this device would be deemed unacceptable.
If my plane is sitting in the pits two failures need to happen. One would be a hard short in the Emcotec switch to allow power to the battery. Any other kind of failure and it will not turn on.
Then, I would also need to have my ESC fail, since it will not arm if it does not see a radio signal. But let's say the radio is on for some reason.
Then after both the Emcotec switch AND the ESC failing I would also have to have the master switch (switch) on AND have the throttle kill off (slider) AND the throttle stick would have to be off idle before the prop would turn. That seems pretty safe to me.
Of course I suppose you could argue that if the ESC fails then it might arm without the radio signal. But that still requires TWO simultaneous failures.
The only thing the Emcotec will not do is turn off in the air if it fails while ON.
Here is the last email I got from them:
Dear Bill
1) If plane is flying what happens if the SPS unit stops working correctly? Will power still be connected to the motor from the battery??
It depends on what get broken, this we will not know. If the MosFet gets open then it will turn off, if it makes a short circuit then it stays on.
2) Is there any way that once the battery is connected to the SPS and prior to removing the magnetic plug that something can happen to the SPS unit that will result in power be passed to the ESC/motor?
If there is not a short, then if you not swich on it will stay off.
Ich hoffe, ich konnte Ihnen behilflich sein und verbleibe mit freundlichen Grüßen
Dipl. Ing. (FH) Andreas Peukert
Entwicklung Elektronik / Support
==========================================
EMCOTEC GmbH
embedded controller technologies
Waldstr. 21
D - 86517 Wehringen
Tel. +49 (0) 8234 / 95 98 950
Fax +49 (0) 8234 / 95 98 959
www.emcotec.de
www.rc-electronic.com
Handelsregister Augsburg: HRB 16761
Geschäftsführer: Robert Hussmann
USt.Id.-Nr.: DE 198591085
==========================================
================================================== ==========
Informationen dieser Email sind urheberrechtlich geschützt und vertraulich!
Das Verbreiten der Informationen ist nur mit Freigabe der EMCOTEC GmbH
erlaubt. Unerlaubte Verwendung, Reproduktion oder Weitergabe kann
sowohl zivilrechtlich als auch strafrechtlich verfolgt werden.
================================================== ==========
Proprietary and confidential. Distribution only by express authority of
EMCOTEC GmbH!
================================================== ==========
ORIGINAL: smcharg
I love the look of the Emcotec and actually spent some time on the phone trying to get them to understand our (Pattern) needs a little better. The problem with the Emcotec is that if it does fail, it fails closed which means there is still power to the electrical components. They fail it closed because of BEC. Most guys in pattern don't use BEC at all and therefore, need this to fail open. I explained the problem and they said they understood and would consider making an ''F3A'' version but that was almost 9 months ago. I would love for them to design something for our needs. It really is nice albeit quite heavy in comparison to some of the others. The other problem with it (as mentioned to the engineer in Germany) is that all of the Emcotec is still based on electronics. There never is a physical disconnect between the battery and ESC.
<br type=''_moz'' />
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
I'd be all for that if it allowed for the use of the Emcotec Safety Power Switch.
I'd be all for that if it allowed for the use of the Emcotec Safety Power Switch.
<br type=''_moz'' />
It is true that once it is on, if it fails it stays on. But I also spent some time with them and found out that if it is off and fails, it will not turn on or otherwise complete the circuit unless there is a hard short in it, which they have never seen. I'll keep using them until the rule is changed. If it is changed I cannot understand why this device would be deemed unacceptable.
If my plane is sitting in the pits two failures need to happen. One would be a hard short in the Emcotec switch to allow power to the battery. Any other kind of failure and it will not turn on.
Then, I would also need to have my ESC fail, since it will not arm if it does not see a radio signal. But let's say the radio is on for some reason.
Then after both the Emcotec switch AND the ESC failing I would also have to have the master switch (switch) on AND have the throttle kill off (slider) AND the throttle stick would have to be off idle before the prop would turn. That seems pretty safe to me.
Of course I suppose you could argue that if the ESC fails then it might arm without the radio signal. But that still requires TWO simultaneous failures.
The only thing the Emcotec will not do is turn off in the air if it fails while ON.
Here is the last email I got from them:
Dear Bill
1) If plane is flying what happens if the SPS unit stops working correctly? Will power still be connected to the motor from the battery??
It depends on what get broken, this we will not know. If the MosFet gets open then it will turn off, if it makes a short circuit then it stays on.
2) Is there any way that once the battery is connected to the SPS and prior to removing the magnetic plug that something can happen to the SPS unit that will result in power be passed to the ESC/motor?
If there is not a short, then if you not swich on it will stay off.
Ich hoffe, ich konnte Ihnen behilflich sein und verbleibe mit freundlichen Grüßen
Dipl. Ing. (FH) Andreas Peukert
Entwicklung Elektronik / Support
==========================================
EMCOTEC GmbH
embedded controller technologies
Waldstr. 21
D - 86517 Wehringen
Tel. +49 (0) 8234 / 95 98 950
Fax +49 (0) 8234 / 95 98 959
www.emcotec.de
www.rc-electronic.com
Handelsregister Augsburg: HRB 16761
Geschäftsführer: Robert Hussmann
USt.Id.-Nr.: DE 198591085
==========================================
================================================== ==========
Informationen dieser Email sind urheberrechtlich geschützt und vertraulich!
Das Verbreiten der Informationen ist nur mit Freigabe der EMCOTEC GmbH
erlaubt. Unerlaubte Verwendung, Reproduktion oder Weitergabe kann
sowohl zivilrechtlich als auch strafrechtlich verfolgt werden.
================================================== ==========
Proprietary and confidential. Distribution only by express authority of
EMCOTEC GmbH!
================================================== ==========
04-10-2013 | 02:21 PM
#28
RE: Arming switch - advice.
ORIGINAL: pvogel
Yep that's my argument for why electronic arming switches like the Emcotec should be permitted by any future rule re: arming switches!
Yep that's my argument for why electronic arming switches like the Emcotec should be permitted by any future rule re: arming switches!
Looks like it's you and me against the world [&:]
04-11-2013 | 05:50 AM
#29
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Arming switch - advice.
Bill & Peter,
Just so we're clear....I love that device. I also believe the people that take the time to install something like this have checked their failsafe and have several safeguards against a runaway. I do, however, believe that if there is a possibility, there is still a chance for something to go wrong somewhere at sometime (I think there's a law about this somewhere
). IF the rule were to pass on the next cycle (since it is already passed for FAI) and it were to mirror something like the FAI rule, the reason why the Emcotec would be deemed unacceptable is because there is no physical disconnect between the batteries and the ESC/Motor. That really is my only point. Of course, this rule would not REQUIRE an arming plug...you could just simply open the canopy and plug the batteries in.
I have used the Anderson Plugs in both my Passport and my De Ja Vus but have also had them fail in each plane. They failed properly by shutting down the system but failed none the less. The Anderson plug does not seem to like the higher voltage we run. On the Passport, the physical plug wore down and stopped making sufficient contact to maintain the connection. On the De Ja Vu, the "port" positive side did it. I have now switched over to Deans and, although I watch the connection closely, the metal does not seem to be wearing as much.
<br type="_moz" />
Just so we're clear....I love that device. I also believe the people that take the time to install something like this have checked their failsafe and have several safeguards against a runaway. I do, however, believe that if there is a possibility, there is still a chance for something to go wrong somewhere at sometime (I think there's a law about this somewhere
). IF the rule were to pass on the next cycle (since it is already passed for FAI) and it were to mirror something like the FAI rule, the reason why the Emcotec would be deemed unacceptable is because there is no physical disconnect between the batteries and the ESC/Motor. That really is my only point. Of course, this rule would not REQUIRE an arming plug...you could just simply open the canopy and plug the batteries in.I have used the Anderson Plugs in both my Passport and my De Ja Vus but have also had them fail in each plane. They failed properly by shutting down the system but failed none the less. The Anderson plug does not seem to like the higher voltage we run. On the Passport, the physical plug wore down and stopped making sufficient contact to maintain the connection. On the De Ja Vu, the "port" positive side did it. I have now switched over to Deans and, although I watch the connection closely, the metal does not seem to be wearing as much.
<br type="_moz" />
04-11-2013 | 06:47 AM
#30
RE: Arming switch - advice.
Interesting about the APP. I use them exclusively in my helis and airplanes. Over the past 3 years of use they have proven to be very reliable.
Here's an interesting video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeTTw...layer_embedded
Failed at 380 amps.
Of course if yours failed due to sparking, then the Emcotec switch prevents that
I also use the Emcotec switches for my main RX packs. No physical disconnect there either, so should I be concerned about it failing and turning on? I guess I am not understanding the Cave-man approach that there must be a physical disconnection. But for now it does not matter. When, and if, the AMA changes the rule then I will worry about what to do. For now I will continue on in blissful ignorance.
Here's an interesting video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeTTw...layer_embedded
Failed at 380 amps.
Of course if yours failed due to sparking, then the Emcotec switch prevents that
I also use the Emcotec switches for my main RX packs. No physical disconnect there either, so should I be concerned about it failing and turning on? I guess I am not understanding the Cave-man approach that there must be a physical disconnection. But for now it does not matter. When, and if, the AMA changes the rule then I will worry about what to do. For now I will continue on in blissful ignorance.
04-11-2013 | 07:23 AM
#31
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Arming switch - advice.
I've seen that video too. It is definitely the arcing causing the problem and not continuous throughput. In a sense, it was my fault for just not replacing them every so often although I wouldn't have expected them to fail with so few "x" amount of flights. It was pretty wierd though because they always "gave out" in the air and most of the time downwind when it was blowing 20 mph. LOL
04-11-2013 | 07:30 AM
#32
My Feedback: (8)
RE: Arming switch - advice.
There is no such thing as "Maintenance Free" - with anything. Powerpoles are more than capable of transmitting the power we need in F3A (and for large electric 3D planes as well).
You need to check the metal for degradation. It happens at the tips. A little is OK as the connection should be over the length of the metal connector and not just the tip.
However, you need to be aware of any fatiguing or decreased spring load in the connectors. Over time (theoretically should be a long, long time) the metal can 'relax' a little. If you don't feel a good, solid connection when making your connections you need to check the engagement of the metal. All it takes is a small screwdriver/hobby knife to make an adjustment. Otherwise you have a soft connection and possibility for ARCs.
Same goes for Deans' I imagine - they also use a spring force and they also degrade over time.
You need to check the metal for degradation. It happens at the tips. A little is OK as the connection should be over the length of the metal connector and not just the tip.
However, you need to be aware of any fatiguing or decreased spring load in the connectors. Over time (theoretically should be a long, long time) the metal can 'relax' a little. If you don't feel a good, solid connection when making your connections you need to check the engagement of the metal. All it takes is a small screwdriver/hobby knife to make an adjustment. Otherwise you have a soft connection and possibility for ARCs.
Same goes for Deans' I imagine - they also use a spring force and they also degrade over time.
04-11-2013 | 09:37 AM
#34
RE: Arming switch - advice.
You can get anything Emcotec sells here:
http://www.hkm-models.com/Emcotec.html
He is a glider guy, airline pilot and reliable vendor. He is where I buy my Emcotec products.
http://www.hkm-models.com/Emcotec.html
He is a glider guy, airline pilot and reliable vendor. He is where I buy my Emcotec products.
04-11-2013 | 12:43 PM
#36
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Arming switch - advice.
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
There is no such thing as "Maintenance Free" - with anything. Powerpoles are more than capable of transmitting the power we need in F3A (and for large electric 3D planes as well).
You need to check the metal for degradation. It happens at the tips. A little is OK as the connection should be over the length of the metal connector and not just the tip.
However, you need to be aware of any fatiguing or decreased spring load in the connectors. Over time (theoretically should be a long, long time) the metal can 'relax' a little. If you don't feel a good, solid connection when making your connections you need to check the engagement of the metal. All it takes is a small screwdriver/hobby knife to make an adjustment. Otherwise you have a soft connection and possibility for ARCs.
Same goes for Deans' I imagine - they also use a spring force and they also degrade over time.
There is no such thing as "Maintenance Free" - with anything. Powerpoles are more than capable of transmitting the power we need in F3A (and for large electric 3D planes as well).
You need to check the metal for degradation. It happens at the tips. A little is OK as the connection should be over the length of the metal connector and not just the tip.
However, you need to be aware of any fatiguing or decreased spring load in the connectors. Over time (theoretically should be a long, long time) the metal can 'relax' a little. If you don't feel a good, solid connection when making your connections you need to check the engagement of the metal. All it takes is a small screwdriver/hobby knife to make an adjustment. Otherwise you have a soft connection and possibility for ARCs.
Same goes for Deans' I imagine - they also use a spring force and they also degrade over time.
<br type="_moz" />
04-11-2013 | 02:46 PM
#37
My Feedback: (28)
RE: Arming switch - advice.
This arming plug has about 450 flights on a 5s system. The spade which is facing upward gets arc'd every time I plug it in resulting in a black oxidation over the end 2mm of the spade. Flash has washed it out in this picture but it's there. I've sanded it off 3 or 4 times over its life. Maybe about time to replace the plug?
04-11-2013 | 04:02 PM
#39
RE: Arming switch - advice.
Thanks Scott,..I was getting ready to take mine out. I chucked the plug before it ever got rolling (Anderson type plug). It locks but not very well, but thanks for posting that rule. I guess that is a newer rule?
Bholsten
D2
Bholsten
D2
04-11-2013 | 05:37 PM
#41
RE: Arming switch - advice.
I have used those connectors since the late 90's for my ignition on my big IMAC planes with no problem. This is a different application. I know guy flying FAI like myself that are throwing plugs during snaps. The one I have is used, so perhaps a new one will fair better.
Thanks
Bholsten
Thanks
Bholsten
04-12-2013 | 05:31 AM
#42
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Arming switch - advice.
ORIGINAL: BHolsten
Thanks Scott,..I was getting ready to take mine out. I chucked the plug before it ever got rolling (Anderson type plug). It locks but not very well, but thanks for posting that rule. I guess that is a newer rule?
Bholsten
D2
Thanks Scott,..I was getting ready to take mine out. I chucked the plug before it ever got rolling (Anderson type plug). It locks but not very well, but thanks for posting that rule. I guess that is a newer rule?
Bholsten
D2
<br type="_moz" />
04-12-2013 | 06:06 AM
#43
My Feedback: (10)
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,289
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From: Collierville,
TN
RE: Arming switch - advice.
.
The APP's on my 12S helo were getting eaten up by the connecting arc, so I installed one of the Jeti 150 amp sparkless plugs. It works great.
.
I am considering switching my pattern plane over to the same system I'm using in my helo and installing the Jeti plug outside in the same manner as the old YS fuel filters.
.<br type="_moz"/>
The APP's on my 12S helo were getting eaten up by the connecting arc, so I installed one of the Jeti 150 amp sparkless plugs. It works great.
.
I am considering switching my pattern plane over to the same system I'm using in my helo and installing the Jeti plug outside in the same manner as the old YS fuel filters.
.<br type="_moz"/>
04-12-2013 | 06:08 AM
#44
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Arming switch - advice.
ORIGINAL: klhoard
.
I am considering switching my pattern plane over to the same system I'm using in my helo and installing the Jeti plug outside in the same manner as the old YS fuel filters.
.
.
I am considering switching my pattern plane over to the same system I'm using in my helo and installing the Jeti plug outside in the same manner as the old YS fuel filters.
.
<br type="_moz" />
04-12-2013 | 06:08 AM
#45
My Feedback: (8)
RE: Arming switch - advice.
It sounds like we need a low profile, high power disconnect with a secondary retention device to prevent it from falling out during flight.
Despite my comment about requiring an external device, I do like to be safe. I'm just not interested in a requirement that forces me to add a failure point. The APP and the Deans plug seem to work, but neither is ideal.
I don't know enough about the Emcotec plug. I've seen one used at the field and it seems nice, but I think electronics is a black art and I have a hard time trusting something like that.
Despite my comment about requiring an external device, I do like to be safe. I'm just not interested in a requirement that forces me to add a failure point. The APP and the Deans plug seem to work, but neither is ideal.
I don't know enough about the Emcotec plug. I've seen one used at the field and it seems nice, but I think electronics is a black art and I have a hard time trusting something like that.
04-12-2013 | 06:09 AM
#46
RE: Arming switch - advice.
ORIGINAL: BHolsten
I have used those connectors since the late 90's for my ignition on my big IMAC planes with no problem. This is a different application. I know guy flying FAI like myself that are throwing plugs during snaps. The one I have is used, so perhaps a new one will fair better.
Thanks
Bholsten
I have used those connectors since the late 90's for my ignition on my big IMAC planes with no problem. This is a different application. I know guy flying FAI like myself that are throwing plugs during snaps. The one I have is used, so perhaps a new one will fair better.
Thanks
Bholsten
Interesting. It takes 25 pounds force to unplug the APP. I secure my wires so they cannot flop around, but I do that to avoid stressing where the wire connects to anything. I've never had a plug pull apart in either my planes of helis.
04-12-2013 | 07:01 AM
#47
RE: Arming switch - advice.
I've been overseas,..playing catch up on new rules.[8D]
And yes,..I fly FAI, so thanks for posting that. I'll PM Archie and ask him...
Thanks,
Bill
And yes,..I fly FAI, so thanks for posting that. I'll PM Archie and ask him...
Thanks,
Bill
04-12-2013 | 07:11 AM
#48
RE: Arming switch - advice.
Never had one do it either till now and I secure mine when all possible. This connector plugs into a block with the other end secured to the inside of the block. The App is out side the plane unsecured. Mine falls out when I go to half throttle and before that happens you can hear the ESC beep, indicating it just lost connectivity.
http://www.f3aunlimited.com/webstore...roducts_id=420
Regards,
Bill
http://www.f3aunlimited.com/webstore...roducts_id=420
Regards,
Bill
04-12-2013 | 07:25 AM
#49
My Feedback: (8)
RE: Arming switch - advice.
I think the force to remove an APP is 2-3 lbs, assuming it is assembled right and nothing got bent. The 25 lb looks likens type-o. I have had one disconnect and melt, not necessarily in that order, because i was lazy and ignored the loose feeling connection. The plug in / removal force is not always consistent, and I do use name brand APPs with the ratcheting tool. Sometimes the contact needs a minor adjustment.
I use APPs because its what was widely used and successful in my club when I started with ePower. I think for the purposes of an arming plug, deans is a better connection, but I don't like the snap (would use spark arrest) and am unsure about retention.
I use APPs because its what was widely used and successful in my club when I started with ePower. I think for the purposes of an arming plug, deans is a better connection, but I don't like the snap (would use spark arrest) and am unsure about retention.
04-12-2013 | 08:00 AM
#50
RE: Arming switch - advice.
Just going by what they publish as a spec:
http://www.powerwerx.com/techdata/PP45.pdf
Connector Model PP45 Connector Model PP45
Contact Retention Force (lbf) 25
All I know is that none of mine have ever separated in flight or at any other time that I did not pull them apart.
http://www.powerwerx.com/techdata/PP45.pdf
Connector Model PP45 Connector Model PP45
Contact Retention Force (lbf) 25
All I know is that none of mine have ever separated in flight or at any other time that I did not pull them apart.
