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Comparison of Brenner V4 Contra and Adverrun XS

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Comparison of Brenner V4 Contra and Adverrun XS

Old 05-16-2019, 05:12 AM
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krzy4rc
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Default Comparison of Brenner V4 Contra and Adverrun XS

I know this is risky and could turn into a mess, but I am really interested in try to see if anyone has direct experience with both drives and has any opinions.

With my research I have the following that seem to be true...

V4 Contra Drive Drive
Maintenance: Inject Grease every 200 flights (do not need to disassemble)
Current drawn with 22"x22/22"x20 props ~70 amps
ESC 90 amp
Soft mounted

Adverrun XS Contra Drive
Maintenance: Grease every 50 flights (disassembly required)
Current drawn with 22"x22/22"x20 props - 90-120 amps
ESC 150 amp
soft mounted.

This is mostly gathered from websites/marketing and contra threads.

Anybody have anything else or corrections based on their direct knowledge?

My goal is to select the drive for my new Alchemy. I fly intermediate, with plans to try to get to Masters in the next 2-3 years....pending my dumb thumbs!

Thanks.

Rich
Krzy4RC
Old 05-16-2019, 05:49 AM
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krzy4rc
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Some follow-ups from some more reading...

Adverrun - Does it really require greasing - some posts indicate it may not
Adverrun - Any results with people running Jeti Mezon 90 (seems undersized)

Thanks.
Old 05-16-2019, 06:20 AM
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flyintexan
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Rich,

I will be at the Ramah contest this weekend with my Adverrun and I think there will be a V4 drive there as well.

-mark
Old 05-16-2019, 07:05 AM
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big_G
 
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Originally Posted by flyintexan View Post
Rich,

I will be at the Ramah contest this weekend with my Adverrun and I think there will be a V4 drive there as well.

-mark
At least one... I know folks that have both. There are pro's and con's on both, but they are subtle. Watch them both fly and talk to the pilots and get their impressions. The V4 is load sharing, the Adverrun is not. The Adverrun is quieter, but IMO the V4 is a bit more refined in power application. The Adverrun's motor hangs low, gets better cooling. My V4 motor, which is inline with the spinner, barely gets warm.

Last edited by big_G; 05-16-2019 at 07:11 AM.
Old 05-16-2019, 07:14 AM
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krzy4rc
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Thank you for the reply guys. Looking forward to chatting about them in Ramah. I will be setting my trailer to night and maybe a couple of flights and be out there all day tomorrow.

Learning about something different really gets my juices going!
Old 05-16-2019, 07:18 AM
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I should be pulling in around 2.
Old 05-18-2019, 07:06 PM
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vbortone
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Originally Posted by big_G View Post
At least one... I know folks that have both. There are pro's and con's on both, but they are subtle. Watch them both fly and talk to the pilots and get their impressions. The V4 is load sharing, the Adverrun is not. The Adverrun is quieter, but IMO the V4 is a bit more refined in power application. The Adverrun's motor hangs low, gets better cooling. My V4 motor, which is inline with the spinner, barely gets warm.
At the Nats finals 2 years back mine V-4 passed the noise test. If I remember correct, one of the Adverruns was marginal using the same equipment in same conditions. Therefore, based on this experience the V-4 was quieter on the ground. This was before the lapped gears improvement. I know that in the air the perception is that the V-4 is not as quiet. I sincerely hope that mine gets verified again at the Nats this year.

Last edited by vbortone; 05-18-2019 at 07:08 PM.
Old 05-19-2019, 04:26 AM
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ltc
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IIRC, Adverrun changed to helical gears in part due to noise. I think they also sell a retrofit kit for straight cut to helical gears for early drive units. Mike at F3AUnlimited would know...
Old 05-19-2019, 10:10 PM
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Hello Rich,
I've been flying the Adverrun in more than 1200 flights for 4 years now and am absolutely convinced of it.
(In the meantime is the Adverrun also the choice of the WC-Champion and conquers Japan ....)
The drive runs absolutely cold with the Kontronik; This allows training flights even at over 30 degrees outside temperature without any break (only necessary for the pilot ....)
My power consumption is with the Alchemy, battery Hacker Eco X 4600 mAh, Props Falcon 22 x20 / 22x22 in the P 19 (even in storm with wind around the 45 km / h) never over 3200 mAh and in F 19 never over 3800 mAh) and I fly "European" big and use the 8 minutes!
Once I had to extend and maintain an Adverrun after more than 500 flights (!!); the front bearing was knocked out. Otherwise only fly, fly, .... and no maintenance!
For more than a year I fly the new lapped gear-version; which has a really very pleasant noice and such an enormous power, that I have the possible max. power even throttled.
This always gives me the feeling of having enough power, even with " unflyable " wind.
A disadvantage of the rigidly "connected" two props I really could not find in practice. Since you heard at the beginning of all sorts of concerns ......
All "rumors" that I think come from people who have not flown Adverrun or represent any other interests.
As ESC, I fly light the Sinus ESC by Adam Debowski with very good results, but the Hacker Mezon 90 is also a very good choice and is always enough. (Hackers only gives the recommendation in combination with the Q 80 to take a Mezon 130 ...).
Because I am convinced, there is no alternative for me:
The Alchemy and the Adverrun are a dream combo!

best regards
Bruno Schiffler /Germany




Old 05-20-2019, 01:29 AM
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I have alos been using Adverrun. Initially one of the early units with straight cut gears and recently I bought the upgrade kit and installed it. I could not be happier with this unt. The latest version is very quiet and has lots of power. It does not require routine mainenance but a check of the bearings and condition of the belt is good practse after a few hundred fligts. I think the main difference between it and the Brenner in terms of how it performs is that the adverrun has the props fixed in relation to each other whilst the Brenner is geared so that the props can rotate at different speeds. I expect this would make a fifference in how it feels to fly. I have never been lucky enough to try both.
Old 05-22-2019, 04:49 PM
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TonyF
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I have only owned Contra drives. First the V.1, all the iterations through V.3 and now V.4's. I have flown the Adverun and built installations for two models using them. I haven't flown the Adverun extensively but I think enough to form an opinion.

The V.3 and V.4 with the way it transmits power flies truer through all power settings. I have seen the Adverun have minor issues through the entire power range. This, IMO is because the props are basically locked together, not allowed to run at different RPM's like the Contra. I don't think there is a way out of that, it's just the nature of the designs.

A V.4 with a 600 motor makes more power, especially with the 23" props on it. I have suggested to the Adverun owners that I fly with that they should try the 23" props but to date none have done that. I use the 650 motor on my V.4. It gives me all the power I need and while slightly heavier it runs much cooler. The 650 is barely warm after a flight.

I have seen no temp issues with the Adverun.

A soft mounted V.4 with good bearings and the new gears is quieter in the air then even the helical geared Adverun. Just my opinion from what I have seen. The Adverun is certainly not loud, but I have to give the nod in noise to the V.4.

The people running the Adverun, and the installations I have done, have required a modified mounting system to move the rear shock mounts further back. If running them in the stock location I have heard of tracking problems due to too much movement through corners.

Complete disassembly of an Adverun to replace the front bearing is a problem. The parts are shrink fit with a special Loc-Tite. It takes heat and while I wanted to take one of the ones I had apart I was unwilling to do that with a customers unit. Not sure I would even want to do it with one I owned. Since the bearings are running without lubrication, other then the sealed lube, I would think they will become an issue. The belt is an easy swap and seems to last a long time. The gear really should never wear out unless damaged.

The V.4 requires very little maintenance. I have flown 250 flights without doing anything and then when I took it apart it looked perfect. I am now going to do 350 flights without anything. I do not add grease ever to my V.4. Unless it has been assembled incorrectly the V.4 does not lose grease. So there is no need to add any. Also, too much grease is an excessive load to the system.

One advantage I see with an Adverun vs a V.4 is that the Adverun can come out of a model without system disassembly. The V.4 needs to partially come apart to remove and install it.

From what I have seen the V.4 consumes a bit more battery then an Adverun. But this has really not been proven, at least to me. Until I could fly an Adverun powered model 30-50 flights in the style I fly I won't know that for a fact. I feel that maybe I fly a little larger with a little more speed then my friends with Adveruns fly. So I can't really make a proper comparison. And since the V.4, IMO, makes more power maybe I tend to use it.

Currently a V.4 with the motor is less money then an Adverun system. Parts are readily available for the V.4, at least in the USA. Not sure on Adverun parts.

Oh, one more thing. You don't have to cut and trim a set of V.4 spinners when you get it. And you don't have to remove umpteen tiny little screws that tend to strip and get lost when changing props. And in the way I transport models in my mini van, you have to pay attention to how you mount the props with the Adverun. Since you can't put them just anywhere. But they don't spin in a wind and when you're pushing the model the props don't move. My V.4 has a habit of the props always going vertical when I'm pushing it by the tail!

Hope this helps!

Last edited by TonyF; 05-22-2019 at 05:02 PM.
Old 05-23-2019, 06:28 AM
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kdunlap757
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Tony, just wondering where you get your grease for the V4? Do you use Rheolube 374A or something else? I have a Neu F3A that I want to grease and finding 374A is like trying to find rare gems. No luck. I see somebody selling 10ml for $25 and I am hoping there is a substitute or a cheaper source. Regards -Ked d. Pittsburgh
Old 05-23-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kdunlap757 View Post
Tony, just wondering where you get your grease for the V4? Do you use Rheolube 374A or something else? I have a Neu F3A that I want to grease and finding 374A is like trying to find rare gems. No luck. I see somebody selling 10ml for $25 and I am hoping there is a substitute or a cheaper source. Regards -Ked d. Pittsburgh
Since the Hacker in-runner has planetary gears like does the Contra, maybe this would work?... https://hackermotorusa.com/product-c...arts-2/grease/
Old 05-23-2019, 10:07 AM
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TonyF
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I use the grease Contra supplies. Available through F3A Unlimited.
Old 05-23-2019, 01:38 PM
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rm
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:57 PM
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kdunlap757
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Thanks to all. I am having trouble getting ahold of TAI this week. So, I contacted Nye lubricants, the manufacturer, and the smallest they sell is a 2 OZ tube for $70+shipping -after you register as a vendor with them. A full tub goes for $120. If I can't get anything more reasonable, I'll buy a tub and see if anyone wants to split it.
Old 05-27-2019, 07:33 PM
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My recommendation is to not be tempted to use the white lithium grease that is used for the Hacker gearboxes. This grease will fling off the gears during operation due to the centrifugal force in the spinning Contra gearbox. This isn't a problem for the Hacker gearbox because it doesn't spin.

The recommended grease, Rheolube 374A, is formulated to stay on the gears when the Contra gearbox is spinning at 4,000 plus rpm.

A 10cc syringe filled with Rheolube 374A is available from f3aunlimited.com for $25.

By the way, I am currently flying my V4 Contra with 23" props, aluminum spacers to replace the plastic ones used for the mounting grommets, new lapped gears, a Bert Decker custom-wound 970 kv 10 pole motor, and a Kontronic Jive ESC. The Jive ESC uses an active free-wheeling circuit that makes it more efficient when the ESC is throttled back, and the Bert Decker motor has enough power to pull me through either F or P with no more than half throttle, and with this setup at half throttle, all I am hearing is prop noise. I don't think sound quality can get any better.

As far as maintenance is concerned, at the start of the season I clean all of the grease out of the gearcase and refill the grease reservoir to about 75% full. I only wet the gears with a slight film of grease before reassembling the unit. Centrifugal force during operation then feeds enough grease from the reservoir into the gears to keep then lubricated.

I don't add any grease until just before the Nats. I usually disassemble my Drive at this time to regrease it, but that's just because I like to inspect everything on my plane before going to the Nats. I think 3cc of grease injected through the prop shaft would be sufficient as well. I don't add any more grease until the end of the season.

I am finding that this schedule prevents excess grease from migrating out of the Drive during operation and keeps my installation clean.

The bearings in the Drive and the gears should last for many years, so I usually don't worry about them. However, I like to replace my motor bearings once a year.

One thing I started doing last year was using bearings that have been plated with tungsten disulfide. I order bearings treated like this from Bocca Bearing. I also order them dry with non-contact removable rubber seals and then I grease them myself.

I replaced my motor bearings at the start of this season, but they really didn't need replacing due to the protection given by the tungsten disulfide plating. Based on this result I may decide to just regrease them and keep using the same bearings at the end of this season.

Brenner ...
Old 08-20-2019, 11:59 AM
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Thanks everyone and Brenner for the responses. With my IMAC activity, I haven't made a decision yet, but it should be soon. I need to get it on order. I will update everyone when it is purchased.

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